Map Vaction Sub-Forum & Length of stay in Drafts?

[cairnswk]

I have two points I'd like to raise concern about.

1. We have so many maps in the Foundry now that are either awaiting XML updates, or on vacation and don't look like being done for some time.....I feel there should be another sub-forum or area to move these maps out of the main foundry to and allow other maps in the main foundry that appear to be held up in Drafts ( and yes one of these maps in drafts is mine - but there are several others that should be in the main foundry also IMHO)

2. I have to question the amount of time some maps are spending in the Drafting Room Now. Previously the drafting room was for a map simply starting out in development and had to fulfill a small number of criteria as below:

How a Map Progresses Through the Fondry
Map Idea
All maps start life in the foundry as an idea in the "Map Ideas" sub fourm. Here maps must gain their ideas stamp before being moved into full production in the main foundry.
Main Foundry
Here is where the bulk of a maps development takes place. Gameplay and graphics will go under discussed at this point to ensure that:
o Gameplay is balanced
o Graphics are of a suitable foundry standard.

The draft stamps is required for a map thread to be moved from the drafting room forum to the main foundry. To earn this stamp you must meet the following conditions:
1)The map, first and for most, must have some sort of clear plan of how production will go
2) Have a playable image. If we quenched it people should be able toplay on it. Ths should included the following:
* Territory names
* Working legends
* Speculative Bonuses
* Tentative Border Divisions
3) The working image needs to be beyond rough draft state. This means that you must provide the following:
* A working image done in some kind of graphic software. Pencil drawn images and images done on paint will not be accpected.
* Two quality updates must be provided.
4) Have honest and interested discussion. Not just you and three friends.

Clearly though, these rules appear to be applied with great variation of interpretation, but with overly-lengthy stays in the drafts room. Why is this so? And if someone gives me a reason that it's because maps are not proceeding through the Foundry and are backing up in Final Forge because Lackattack has not uploaded recently, that's hogwash.

Looks to me like the Main Foundry has become some sort of graveyard at present.

What do other non-CAs have to say on this issue?

(Oh and CAs, the underlines are for editing purposes, i copied the above text straight out of "How To Make A Map Handbook" )

[TaCktiX]

I agree with the over-long length. The Citadel spent 4 months in Drafts (then the Ideas forum), 2.75 months in Foundry, and 3 months in the Forge, most of that spent stalling while I hoped to get some licensing attention that never happened. I thought at the time, and still think, that far too much time is being spent in Drafts. In the past, I'm sure that was because of a desire not to create lots of Foundry detritus of maps that couldn't hack it dying of natural causes. Now we've got the Recycling Bin for those cases. Of the maps presently at Draft that should be Foundry already but aren't:

- Atlantis (these people are releasing XML already and updating it each version)
- Caribbean Sea (so what if it's about to name change, British India did that in Foundry)
- Battle of Trafalgar (it's on frigging Version 17, 'nuff said)
- Oceania Map (full set of bonuses, continents, whole nine yards)
- Castle Lands (see above)

That is all but TWO of the ones presently in Drafts (Chess is on update delay, Conquer Mart just got to Advanced Draft). Just because they're first-timers or update-crazy (yes, cairns, you) does not mean they should languish around while the main Foundry is running out of maps to comment on. I remember when writing up Maps in Development for the Newsletter was a 4 hour chore, and that was just to read up on the latest developments on all the maps and condense them to Present Development. Now I can get it done in less than 3, including new writeups for recent Advanced Drafts.

[MrBenn]

I haven't been paying as much attention to things around here since just before Christmas, and I've just spent a couple of hours catching up on life in the drafting room, only to discover that I've been fastposted by Cairns who has been getting irritable about the amount of time his maps are taking

It's worth noting that over the past month or so, all of the CAs (and Andy) have had some time away from CC / the Foundry - we do have real lives too!

[TaCktiX]

Benn, did you read a thing I wrote? The development of my map did not coincide with any major holiday seasons aside from summer, when CC activity picks UP, not down. I realize you all have real lives, but dropping in for 30 minutes every couple of days (all that I think it should take to evaluate whether or not all present Advanced Drafts are ready for a stamp) is not very much to ask nor expect at all.

[cairnswk]

I haven't been paying as much attention to things around here since just before Christmas, and I've just spent a couple of hours catching up on life in the drafting room, only to discover that I've been fastposted by Cairns who has been getting irritable about the amount of time his maps are taking

It's worth noting that over the past month or so, all of the CAs (and Andy) have had some time away from CC / the Foundry - we do have real lives too!

Mr Benn, yes i know and understand you have real lives.
You can roll your eyes as much as you want at me, however, having V20 on a map (most worthy) and still being stuck in the Drafts is simply not on and way outside the guidelines for any mapmaker.

[gimil]

Benn, did you read a thing I wrote? The development of my map did not coincide with any major holiday seasons aside from summer, when CC activity picks UP, not down. I realize you all have real lives, but dropping in for 30 minutes every couple of days (all that I think it should take to evaluate whether or not all present Advanced Drafts are ready for a stamp) is not very much to ask nor expect at all.

Unfortunatly tack CC takes low priority to almost everything else for a volunteer. 30minutes or not MrBenn is a married man with a family, full time job, chores, shopping, babysitting etc etc etc.

It may take only 30minutes but if that 30minutes is at the end of a busy day I don't think he want to spend it on here does he? Not everyone is a student who spends more time on CC.

Come on guys, the foundry generally does slow down over christmas and does take a while to start back up. I thought cairns of all people would know that. Give the blues a break yeah? Sometimes things don't move fast and efficiently but we are volunteers here to make the system work, not paid employees who's role is to make the process as automated and efficient as possible. Think about that.

[cairnswk]

.... Think about that.

I have Gimil, but my statement that maps are spending way too much time in Drafts still stands.
I was under the impression that the Foundry was the place for major updates to be done, but this seems to have moved to the Drafts section now. So...do new guildelines need to be written, or simply for the guidelines to be followed.

[gimil]

.... Think about that.

I have Gimil, but my statement that maps are spending way too much time in Drafts still stands.
I was under the impression that the Foundry was the place for major updates to be done, but this seems to have moved to the Drafts section now. So...do new guildelines need to be written, or simply for the guidelines to be followed.

Cairns I still think you are being unfair. If you had a concern with teh drafting room you should of went to MrBenn and discussed it with him. Maybe he HAS been preoccupied, maybe he HAS been slacking. Whatever I have full trust in MrBenn to make the right decision to whatever you may bring to him.

You can roll your eyes as much as you want at me...

This is also a very unfair comment towards MrBenn. You have made a public thread and force fed our own 'guidelines' to him and more or less pointing the finger. We have never stricly enforced all our guidelines and have never strickly followed all of them ourselfs because we as a community (the foundry) have always been respectable, understanding and friendly with each other.

I respect what you have to say cairns, but lately I have has a problem with how you have been saying it.

[cairnswk]

...
Cairns I still think you are being unfair. If you had a concern with teh drafting room you should of went to MrBenn and discussed it with him.

Gimil. I sent an email to MrBenn on 17 Dec about Gallipoli map, and he didn't bother to answer it.
And besides, i think this should be put out in the public forum and not done behind closed doors or other group discussion.

This is also a very unfair comment towards MrBenn. You have made a public thread and force fed our own 'guidelines' to him and more or less pointing the finger. We have never stricly enforced all our guidelines and have never strickly followed all of them ourselfs because we as a community (the foundry) have always been respectable, understanding and friendly with each other.
I respect what you have to say cairns, but lately I have has a problem with how you have been saying it.

And i respect you all too Gimil, but rolling eyes i don't appreciate seeing in that context.
If you have guidelines and you're not going to follow them, then i have to question why they are there in the first place, and I would also be the first one to say don't get rid of the guideines.

[gimil]

...
Cairns I still think you are being unfair. If you had a concern with teh drafting room you should of went to MrBenn and discussed it with him.

Gimil. I sent an email to MrBenn on 17 Dec about Gallipoli map, and he didn't bother to answer it.
And besides, i think this should be put out in the public forum and not done behind closed doors or other group discussion.

Matter or opinion cairns but if you are going to publically point out the concerns you have with someone expect a little stiffer resistance and maybe even some attitude than if you go and discuss it privatly. No one likes being called you, intentional or not

Also cairns some people just don't check there email, I am one of them. I always have half a dozen things from widowmaker that I get weeks late. You are always more likely to get a reply in PM but if oyu don't it likely slipped our mind since we are human

This is also a very unfair comment towards MrBenn. You have made a public thread and force fed our own 'guidelines' to him and more or less pointing the finger. We have never stricly enforced all our guidelines and have never strickly followed all of them ourselfs because we as a community (the foundry) have always been respectable, understanding and friendly with each other.
I respect what you have to say cairns, but lately I have has a problem with how you have been saying it.

And i respect you all too Gimil, but rolling eyes i don't appreciate seeing in that context.
If you have guidelines and you're not going to follow them, then i have to question why they are there in the first place, and I would also be the first one to say don't get rid of the guideines.

No one is saying we don't follow the guidelines. What we are saying is we're not nazi's about it since we try and make the foundry as fun as possible. This lazzie-faire approach works both ways to accomodate for situations, moods on both CA and map makers side.

There has been many times you have had problems with the foundry that I agree with you cairns, this isn't one of them.

[oaktown]

I sent an email to MrBenn on 17 Dec about Gallipoli map, and he didn't bother to answer it.

hey, be nice now, cairnswk. I went away for two weeks and I had 42 new PMs to respond to. If benn failed to respond to you, it may not be as simple as him "not bothering" to do so.

Regardless, I agree with you (cairns) about maps possibly spending too long in Drafts. I'm not going to make excuses for the CA team, and I don't think anybody is asking us to - I know that you have a unique appreciation for the nature of the position we are in. Instead, I'll present some of the reasons that I think maps progress slowly through Drafts, and maybe we can come up with some ideas together to address these reasons.

1. There is a lack of participation in most map threads in the Drafts stage. The.killing.44 recently ran a poll in his Korea map (which has potential) and received 19 votes. Samuelc812 posted a first draft of a very promising map of Poland on December 16, and the thread is still on page 1. As a mapmaker I know that if I don't post in my own Drafts thread every 24 hours, it will be ignored by everybody else and fall to the bottom of the list... in part this is because there are sooo many maps there, but it also has to do with the fact that there are too many map-makers and not enough map-commenters.

2. MrBenn has been put in the difficult position of Foundry Gatekeeper. We all know that over 50% of the maps that get started in the Drafting Room will never - and should never - see the light of day. There are a couple of folks around here who have a history of telling it like it is (mibi and DiM to name two) by letting mapmakers know when they should be giving up on a project, but MrBenn is in the unenviable position of having to draw the line in some cases. Here's a message that MrBenn left just today...

Firstly, the map is far too small at only 13 territories.

Secondly, I don't mean to offend you, but it looks like something my 3yr old daughter could have drawn... If you're serious about making a map, then you need to seriously develop your graphics skills

I'd suggest getting some decent software (mapmaking tools) and googling for some tutorials to show you how to improve. If you have specific things that you're trying to achieve, then you might find some advice in the Foundry Discussion forum

MrBenn was right on the mark about this map. So, if the mapmaker keeps working on this map for the next three weeks and it is still a 13-territory doodle, does he promote it to the Foundry on the basis of time? No. We are all counting on MrBenn to maintain a high standard in the Drafting Room so the Plasagna Maps don't clutter up the Foundry.

3. The requirements for each stamp, other than the XML stamp, are entirely subjective. We have entrusted certain members of the Foundry with stamps and given them the power to stamp maps when these individuals deem it appropriate. We are often asked by impatient mapmakers to move faster, but the bottom line is that we have to, in our humble and subjective opinions, believe that the map meets the requirements we set out for each stamp a year ago. Now, we could certainly revisit the requirements for each stamp and make them easier to meet, but we won't be able to change the human element.

4. CAs get busy, and stamping slow down. Lack and Andy gets busy, and the quenching slows down. Holidays, family needs, and finals happen, and sometimes we just get bored with this work and step away for a few days. We won't be able to stop any of that, but we could continue to bring on more people to do stamping. We tried this a few months ago with the stamp-lickers, with mixed results, but it wouldn't hurt to identify some new foundry faces.

Anyway, let's put our heads together and think about what will make MrBenn's job easier, and by extension make the Drafting Room run smoother.

Oh, and the first point about maps on vacation/awaiting game engine changes... the folks upstairs don't like having too many subforums, and I'd tend to agree with them. Perhaps instead we could lock those map threads that aren't active, so they don't keep floating to the top of the Foundry? When the mapmakers wants to get back in we can unlock it. If a map is simply on vacation, we already have a place for that. Unfortunately mapmakers don't always inform us, so we wait until the map has been dead for a month or two.

[cairnswk]

Guys, fair comment from above which i have read. I'll stop hacking into everyone now, now that i have had my say.

[Qwert]

what to say-im these talking for all time here.

Oaktown
3. The requirements for each stamp, other than the XML stamp, are entirely subjective

These is bigest problem here,CA need to be objective,and to follow what most people like(ofcourse in required standards for CC maps). If map have all what is required to move in next stage,and people seems to like,so why you need to be subjective,and to have last word. If you dont like something and 20-30 people like, there you only need to say"ok people like,and i dont need to cause any adition problems"
You are CA, and ofcourse you also have right to sugested,but you can not go against what all other people say abouth some maps.
Many maps,just moving slowly,because you have oposite oppinion abouth some things in map,who is all ready accepted.
Belive me map will be move much faster,if you only verify, when map have all importan things,all ready discussed and accepted from all other people.

[gimil]

what to say-im these talking for all time here.

Oaktown
3. The requirements for each stamp, other than the XML stamp, are entirely subjective

These is bigest problem here,CA need to be objective,and to follow what most people like(ofcourse in required standards for CC maps). If map have all what is required to move in next stage,and people seems to like,so why you need to be subjective,and to have last word. If you dont like something and 20-30 people like, there you only need to say"ok people like,and i dont need to cause any adition problems"
You are CA, and ofcourse you also have right to sugested,but you can not go against what all other people say abouth some maps.
Many maps,just moving slowly,because you have oposite oppinion abouth some things in map,who is all ready accepted.
Belive me map will be move much faster,if you only verify, when map have all importan things,all ready discussed and accepted from all other people.

Completly wrong qwert. There are millions or examples I could go and find of CA's moving maps on with issues they disagree with. If plenty of people are against the CA that is fine, never has been a problem.

A point to remeber thou 10 'I like it' posts doesn't always beat a good constructive 'I don't like it' post

[oaktown]

Qwert, we will never come up with an adequate list of objective criteria for a passing map. Never. Because as soon as you make a list of ten things that a map needs - distinguishable colors, easy to read legend, smooth borders, adequate army circles, etc - somebody will make a map that is ugly, boring, and doesn't play well, but who insists that we pass the map because it meets all of the criteria. And who's to say that the colors are distinguishable? That the legend makes sense?

The biggest unwritten rule is that your map can't suck. Whether or not a map sucks is a decision based on subjective criteria. If we remove the subjective human voice, we open ourselves up to the possibility of playing on crappy maps, and if that's what you want I would redirect you to any one of many other web sites that provide a similar product but don't give a damn what their maps look like.

like this one.