Antarctica v9 [I, Gp, Gr]

[e_i_pi]

looking at the earlier versions, im not surprised that the stars were removed, they didnt look that good.
But if you look around, you can find some really good tutorials on how to make starfields that look excellent.
I still think it needs inner atmosphere tho

Can you give an example of inner atmosphere? I don't know what you mean by this.

[e_i_pi]

Version 8.21

Lightened West Antarctica, and darkened Victoria Land

Click image to enlarge.

[yeti_c]

looking sharp as usual.

The only remaining colors that trouble me are West Ant. and Peninsula, then West Ant. and Victoria Land. This is further complicated byt he fact that West Ant. and Penin. look similar on the mini-map. Maybe if West Ant. were a touch lighter on both?

You're kidding right? I've checked this map on all 7 forms of colour blindness, and aside from monochromacy, only one has any trouble distinguishing, that being between Polar Plateau and Victoria Land (due to brightness similarity). I can post the 7 versions for people to see - there is clear distinction in the West Antarctica area. That was the area that I started on in this latest version, making the colours absolutely opposite on the colour wheel so that there is unequivocal distinction. If this isn't enough as is, I may have to retire the map, as I'm completely out of ideas...

Remember that all you did were simulations - whereas Oak is actually colour blind...

C.

[e_i_pi]

looking sharp as usual.

The only remaining colors that trouble me are West Ant. and Peninsula, then West Ant. and Victoria Land. This is further complicated byt he fact that West Ant. and Penin. look similar on the mini-map. Maybe if West Ant. were a touch lighter on both?

You're kidding right? I've checked this map on all 7 forms of colour blindness, and aside from monochromacy, only one has any trouble distinguishing, that being between Polar Plateau and Victoria Land (due to brightness similarity). I can post the 7 versions for people to see - there is clear distinction in the West Antarctica area. That was the area that I started on in this latest version, making the colours absolutely opposite on the colour wheel so that there is unequivocal distinction. If this isn't enough as is, I may have to retire the map, as I'm completely out of ideas...

Remember that all you did were simulations - whereas Oak is actually colour blind...

C.

yeti, I'm not trying to be insensitive to oak here. I'm just tired of this border discussion - it's taken up about 35-40% of the entire thread. I've changed the colours 4 times now. Sometimes when I change them they're fine... for about 2-3 weeks, then suddenly they're bad again. One person likes it, another doesn't, it goes back and forth like a ping pong match, and I just feel like the fine tuning I'm doing here is insanely superificial compared to some of the glaringly obvious furfys on some other maps. I know of 4 maps that have ridiculously ambiguous areas in them that have all cost me games. Yet they are quenched, and whenever I raise the issue, the response I hear is "Get a plugin".

Here's a poser for you. Without checking BOB, and without using your knowledge of the map - tell me what continent Cyprus belongs to on Middle East.

[yeti_c]

Looking at this map in the game finder...



I would say Near East...

C.

[gimil]

yeti, I'm not trying to be insensitive to oak here. I'm just tired of this border discussion - it's taken up about 35-40% of the entire thread. I've changed the colours 4 times now. Sometimes when I change them they're fine... for about 2-3 weeks, then suddenly they're bad again. One person likes it, another doesn't, it goes back and forth like a ping pong match, and I just feel like the fine tuning I'm doing here is insanely superificial compared to some of the glaringly obvious furfys on some other maps. I know of 4 maps that have ridiculously ambiguous areas in them that have all cost me games. Yet they are quenched, and whenever I raise the issue, the response I hear is "Get a plugin".

Here's a poser for you. Without checking BOB, and without using your knowledge of the map - tell me what continent Cyprus belongs to on Middle East.

As yeti said pi, oaktown is indeed colour blind you really should take his advice. He is here to help you remeber.

Onto your comment about ambiguous maps.

Here in the foundry we are all volunteers. No one is paid to be in the foundry so with that in mind remember that everyone who comments on your maps does so because they like your map and they want your map to be the best it can be. Moaning and shouting that your not happy with 30-40% of your thread being taken up by one issue isn't going to make it go away. The reason it is taking 30-40% of your thread is because it is, well, an issue. Once you solve that issue

Yes we are ALL guilty of loosing our temper with how the foundry operates sometimes (expect iancanton, how does he do it?) and yes we all find it unfair sometimes but as long as you remember to put your head back on and realise that the community is just here to help you out with your map

p.s. cyprus is part of near east, everyone knows that

[e_i_pi]

yeti, I'm not trying to be insensitive to oak here. I'm just tired of this border discussion - it's taken up about 35-40% of the entire thread. I've changed the colours 4 times now. Sometimes when I change them they're fine... for about 2-3 weeks, then suddenly they're bad again. One person likes it, another doesn't, it goes back and forth like a ping pong match, and I just feel like the fine tuning I'm doing here is insanely superificial compared to some of the glaringly obvious furfys on some other maps. I know of 4 maps that have ridiculously ambiguous areas in them that have all cost me games. Yet they are quenched, and whenever I raise the issue, the response I hear is "Get a plugin".

Here's a poser for you. Without checking BOB, and without using your knowledge of the map - tell me what continent Cyprus belongs to on Middle East.

As yeti said pi, oaktown is indeed colour blind you really should take his advice. He is here to help you remeber.

Onto your comment about ambiguous maps.

Here in the foundry we are all volunteers. No one is paid to be in the foundry so with that in mind remember that everyone who comments on your maps does so because they like your map and they want your map to be the best it can be. Moaning and shouting that your not happy with 30-40% of your thread being taken up by one issue isn't going to make it go away. The reason it is taking 30-40% of your thread is because it is, well, an issue. Once you solve that issue

Yes we are ALL guilty of loosing our temper with how the foundry operates sometimes (expect iancanton, how does he do it?) and yes we all find it unfair sometimes but as long as you remember to put your head back on and realise that the community is just here to help you out with your map

gimil, it's more about seeing this drag on and on over the same thing, and no matter what change I make, I apparently get it wrong. I went hunting around for the colour balance levels to check all (yes all, not just one) forms of colour blindness, and now I'm told that that is wrong. Look, oaktown made a suggestion, I've made the change. We'll see how that goes down.

p.s. cyprus is part of near east, everyone knows that

Yeah forgive me on this one... it's cost me 2 games... here was I thinking that Cyprus, which has for all of history been associated with Greece, Turkey, and Ptolemy, was part of Turkey. In fact, even to this day, the Turkish claim the Eastern half of the island. The point I was making was this: teal and bone next to each other is fine, but green and red is not.

Now if people want to continue arguing semantics and other stuff, fine. But saying "No that's no good, change it", without offering advice, is going to piss me off, understandably. I don't give other people's maps opinion, I give them advice. If there is a problem with the colours, please, please help me solve it:

West Antarctica borders 4 other continents, 2 pairs of continents
The first pair (Marie Byrd and Peninsula) border each other
The second pair (Victoria and Plateau) border each other

How do I make 5 different colours work together so that no form of colour blindness is disadvantaged? What colour scheme can I possibly use? Is there even a colour scheme available? Or will it have to be accepted that the mini-map defines the continent borders?

Essentially, it shouldn't matter what the central colour is (West Antarctica's) as you can find two colours that contrast well (one for the first pair, one for the second). But then you have to make a compromise. Something has to give.

Also, some people like the space how it is, others don't. How long does the Foundry process get stalled with this? Until someone gets bored and stops posting about it?

Look, I'm going to leave off with this quote from some guy, I don't know who said it, someone did, it doesn't matter:
"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time"

[asl80]

Look, I'm going to leave off with this quote from some guy, I don't know who said it, someone did, it doesn't matter:
"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time"

hehe, it was my dad et al.

and here here. if many combinations have been tried and the issue keeps slowly ratcheting around in circles, fixing one problem - exposing another, fixing that problem - exposing yet another, fixing this problem - exposing the first etc. etc., then we are surely going to have to come to a point where we say, ok, the image is not perfect for colorblind distinction, but it is better than how it began, and there is enough information on the map to distinguish the continents, so lets make do with what we've got.
And get on that foundry train again!

good luck.

[yeti_c]

I think it was Mark Anthony... but I could be wrong...

I would love to help with the colours - but I can't as I can distinguish them pretty easily.

RE: Space - leave it how it is - unless you fancy doing something different... if you feel it's as good as it can get then you don't have to change it.

The difference here - is that space isn't a showstopper - it's a pretification. - Bordering colours are a gameplay concern...

Also - RE: Middle East - that map was made a long time ago before we really worried about Colour Blindness - as the foundry has evolved - so have the standards... but it'll make your map better in the long run... I really think you're close - so don't get disheartened now.

C.

[e_i_pi]

I think it was Mark Anthony... but I could be wrong...

I would love to help with the colours - but I can't as I can distinguish them pretty easily.

RE: Space - leave it how it is - unless you fancy doing something different... if you feel it's as good as it can get then you don't have to change it.

The difference here - is that space isn't a showstopper - it's a pretification. - Bordering colours are a gameplay concern...

Also - RE: Middle East - that map was made a long time ago before we really worried about Colour Blindness - as the foundry has evolved - so have the standards... but it'll make your map better in the long run... I really think you're close - so don't get disheartened now.

C.

Thanks yeti. I'm just overworked man. I have people whinging about stupid ass things at work and shit and I do this to relax. So when it mimics what I get at work, I get irritated by it. You know, I'll spend 20 hours coding an interface, and I'll ask if they like it, and you know what they say?... "Oh, can you change the colours"... You know like, it's VBA interfacing with third party software and the web, and I need to know if it actually works to their standard, and it's always about the colours.

I just want to get the graphics out the way so the talk can steer towards gameplay.

[yeti_c]

I hear you brother - I share that pain a LOT!!

C.

[reggie_mac]

I get where your coming from e_i_pi, I walked away from my map for a good 3 weeks because i was getting to a point where it wasn't fun any more.

Seems to me that the concern with colours is in the intercontinental area definition, maybe (and i know its going to sound ugly) a black/grey or some other dark colour stroke/overlay with some opacity around the continent area would help define it, and then when you post it poepl would see how ugly it is and ask for what you have already to be brought back, It almost seems to me that its getting to be like the mountains on Oaktown's Eastern Hemisphere, people either love them or hate them. I also think that due to the fact that there over now over 100 maps to choose from maybe the foundry should be a little more favoured towards the carto's who make the map instead of towards the people who complain but offer no suggestions.

I hope you stick with it, im looking forward to playing this map.

[e_i_pi]

Shifted 2 colours, tested on all colour blindness types.

Click image to enlarge.

PS If the non-colour blind people start complaining, I may pay you a visit and pluck out your red-green cones.

[lt.pie]

i like the colors.

[e_i_pi]

i like the colors.

Please tell me you have deuteranopia

[yeti_c]

For comparison
OLD

Click image to enlarge.

NEW

Click image to enlarge.

West Ant & Wilkes Land have been swapped... Oak - does this help?

C.

[edbeard]

Shifted 2 colours, tested on all colour blindness types.

Click image to enlarge.

PS If the non-colour blind people start complaining, I may pay you a visit and pluck out your red-green cones.

2 areas of concern which don't have to do with colours.

1. Palmer's border almost touches the ocean which makes it look like you have another nameless territory in between it and Ronne. Not a big deal as people will probably figure it out but it doesn't look good and shouldn't be too hard to move that line a bit to the left so the whole part of that territory is obviously connected.

2. The Stancomb label blocks the border between it and Norvegia. It can be easily moved to prevent. possibly other circles and/or labels will need to be moved slightly as well but there's plenty of space for that too

[e_i_pi]

Palmer's border almost touches the ocean which makes it look like you have another nameless territory in between it and Ronne. Not a big deal as people will probably figure it out but it doesn't look good and shouldn't be too hard to move that line a bit to the left so the whole part of that territory is obviously connected.

Easily fixed

2. The Stancomb label blocks the border between it and Norvegia. It can be easily moved to prevent. possibly other circles and/or labels will need to be moved slightly as well but there's plenty of space for that too

There is no border between Stancomb and Norvegia, it's an impassable. That area is difficult to shift around, I may have to go with 'Stan.' instead of 'Stancomb' due to space limitations

[edbeard]

I disagree. It's quite spacious.

One example. Move Slessor circle to lower right part of the territory. move the Slessor label to the lower left. This allows the Stancomb label to be moved down and to the right without causing other concerns.

[oaktown]

No offense taken, e_i_pi - I'm learning to have a pretty thick skin around here. (Someday I'll burn it all down, and then they'll be sorry!) This can be a frustrating process with a dozen voices having different opinions, and just when you think something is fine somebody else tells you it isn't. I'm going through that right now with the Corrientes problem on the Triple Alliance map - a month ago I thought it was resolved, now everybody has an opinion.

Two things I'll say that I hope guides your work in the future:

1. There is no easy and universal fix to the colorblind problem. There are many different kinds of colorblindness, so any two people commenting on your map may see things differently. If you change something just for me, it may get worse for somebody else, and vice-versa. And colors that work for me look too similar to normal-sighted folks (see british india map). There are tricks that I use that make the issue moot - labelling the continents, mini-maps, a distinctly different border weight between regions, regions distinguished by patterns in addition to color - but in the end I resign myself to being BOB-dependent on many maps, including the Middle East map.

2. When faced with conflicting views about something, decide what you think is best for the map and stick to your guns. I won't hold a map up based on my own personal needs if my opinions are refuted by other members of the Foundry. As long as gameplay is still being worked out on a map I'll continue to give feedback as to what colors don't work for me, but if you are getting contradictory opinions about the colors (not all of which I have read, I admit) then you do what you think makes the most sense. It's your map, and in the end it should reflect your point of view and be something you are proud to put your name on.

[joe cool 360]

I like the new colors, to my eyes they look pretty distinguishable.

2 areas of concern which don't have to do with colours.

1. Palmer's border almost touches the ocean which makes it look like you have another nameless territory in between it and Ronne. Not a big deal as people will probably figure it out but it doesn't look good and shouldn't be too hard to move that line a bit to the left so the whole part of that territory is obviously connected.

2. The Stancomb label blocks the border between it and Norvegia. It can be easily moved to prevent. possibly other circles and/or labels will need to be moved slightly as well but there's plenty of space for that too

I agree w/ edbeard, nice eyes, I didn't even see those.

(Someday I'll burn it all down, and then they'll be sorry!)

lol, just wait for me to leave the building first.

[yeti_c]

No offense taken, e_i_pi - ... name on.

Long post - but no actual comment about colours?

C.

[oaktown]

Long post - but no actual comment about colours?

C.

Man, can't a guy be busy?

Colors good... here's what would help me more than doing any additional changes in color: could you move the mountain range back from the ocean a bit along the Trans./McMurdo border? I think that the colors themselves aren't giving me trouble as much as the fact that there the fields of color are so small right where they come together that, to my eyes, it is difficult to distinguish the color distinction. If you do that i can't promise that I won't say anything else about color, but I might not.

On another note entirely, you'll want to take a look at the location of army circles and titles: some names are precariously close to the wrong circles, such as Trans.

[e_i_pi]

On Vacation until December 11th (hmm, I wonder why? )

[MonteKiffin]

I don't like it.