Jeff Hardy [Blocked]

[nagerous]

I posted a PM from one of the players admitting that he threw the game after the other player asked him to.....thats a DIRECT admission of guilt....what more proof do you want? Is your stance that you cannot bust Jeff Hardy without Jeff Hardy himself turning over the PM or instant messenger log or whatever means he used to request the other player to throw the game?

What KA is looking for is the PM sent by Jeff to William Wallace. Only two people have access to that PM, Jeff and William. If one of them were to post the PM then action could be taken. Since people lie, or make stuff up, we cannot be sure that William was not just pulling your chain by saying all that stuff. Please have him post the PM via screenshot or it is likely that no more action will be taken.

Wrong again Lance, Twill read every single pms between Bruce and I without our knowledge. Obviously he found nothing in them but that's not the point..... Admins, no matter what they say, do go into our accounts.

Did he say he did that? As far as I'm aware they have no power in that respect...

[Kotaro]

nag, they can't see the PM's, or access our passwords and get into our accounts. Anyone that has ever had their own forum, or been a moderator on one, knows that.

Scott, you're comparing your 500 + games with Bruce to Jeff and Williams 2? And what's to say that Will wasn't super pissed at Jeff and wanted just exactly this to happen? AND, why would William openly admit to losing a game on purpose, which itself is against the rules, unless he wanted to get Jeff introuble? And if he wanted Jeff introuble, why would he deadbeat for him once at all?

Mojo, are you saying that, if you were playing against me, losing, and you made a miraculous comeback due to dice and good strategy as compared to my horrible dice and bad strategy, that anyone watching should instantly assume I did that to lose to you on purpose?

Dice rules this site, nothing else.

[Kotaro]

Oh, and most importantly:

IF this was true, why would William not come forward and provide a screenshot of the real PM?

Simple. Because it doesn't exist.

[e_i_pi]

Just how many games are we talking about that these two alleged threw games for one another, one? two games?

I find this to be specious reasoning, especially in light of the Unwritten Rules:

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts.

Let us suppose someone states this as a dismissal of action to be taken:

Just how many multis are we talking about that these two created for one another, one? two multis?

I don't presume to know the best way to handle breaches of the rules, but I think dismissing the fact that there are multiple admissions of guilt, and subsequently there are no repurcussions - well this only invites people to bend the rules more and more, and to argue with more certainty that they have been hard done by when they get breached and others haven't.

I won't say it's a Pandora's Box, but it is a slippery slope..

[Bruceswar]

I posted a PM from one of the players admitting that he threw the game after the other player asked him to.....thats a DIRECT admission of guilt....what more proof do you want? Is your stance that you cannot bust Jeff Hardy without Jeff Hardy himself turning over the PM or instant messenger log or whatever means he used to request the other player to throw the game?

What KA is looking for is the PM sent by Jeff to William Wallace. Only two people have access to that PM, Jeff and William. If one of them were to post the PM then action could be taken. Since people lie, or make stuff up, we cannot be sure that William was not just pulling your chain by saying all that stuff. Please have him post the PM via screenshot or it is likely that no more action will be taken.

Wrong again Lance, Twill read every single pms between Bruce and I without our knowledge. Obviously he found nothing in them but that's not the point..... Admins, no matter what they say, do go into our accounts.

Did he say he did that? As far as I'm aware they have no power in that respect...

Twill did take a look at the PM's unless Twill is lying about looking at the PM's. At least that is what he told me.

[Bruceswar]

nag, they can't see the PM's, or access our passwords and get into our accounts. Anyone that has ever had their own forum, or been a moderator on one, knows that.

Scott, you're comparing your 500 + games with Bruce to Jeff and Williams 2? And what's to say that Will wasn't super pissed at Jeff and wanted just exactly this to happen? AND, why would William openly admit to losing a game on purpose, which itself is against the rules, unless he wanted to get Jeff introuble? And if he wanted Jeff introuble, why would he deadbeat for him once at all?

Mojo, are you saying that, if you were playing against me, losing, and you made a miraculous comeback due to dice and good strategy as compared to my horrible dice and bad strategy, that anyone watching should instantly assume I did that to lose to you on purpose?

Dice rules this site, nothing else.

[Bruceswar]

nag, they can't see the PM's, or access our passwords and get into our accounts. Anyone that has ever had their own forum, or been a moderator on one, knows that.

Scott, you're comparing your 500 + games with Bruce to Jeff and Williams 2? And what's to say that Will wasn't super pissed at Jeff and wanted just exactly this to happen? AND, why would William openly admit to losing a game on purpose, which itself is against the rules, unless he wanted to get Jeff introuble? And if he wanted Jeff introuble, why would he deadbeat for him once at all?

Mojo, are you saying that, if you were playing against me, losing, and you made a miraculous comeback due to dice and good strategy as compared to my horrible dice and bad strategy, that anyone watching should instantly assume I did that to lose to you on purpose?

Dice rules this site, nothing else.

Admins have access to any files they need, which includes your PM's. If they did not anybody could make up a fake PM to say whatever. They need to be able to verify if such was ever sent or said.

[FabledIntegral]

Scott and Bruce were Blocked not Banned. They were blocked for the reason that Scott won 15% more games when playing with Bruce and Bruce lost 10% more games when playing with Scott. This was over a sample of close to 300 games when they played with one another and over 1000 games each when not playing together.

I've played hundreds of games with Scott in 8-man and when together we have a combined win% of about 2/3. Considering we should have a win% combined (2 players, 12.5% each) or 25% and have about 66% instead, that would also look suspicious. But one would know that if you checked Scott + Prank or some others similar numbers would pop up as well.

That block was a joke in my opinion.

This actually has evidence, and the entire "your PM box if your privacy" is quite potentially the most retarded shit I've seen from this site. If you have something private to say, obviously you're not going to be saying it on CC. And obviously any cheating between two people would be through PM's and such. Never heard of a site with such a dumb design.

[BaldAdonis]

Can we get a second opinion from another multi-hunter here? It looks like an open and shut case for a ban, but for some reason the first hunter missed that.

[Twill]

First off - I have never read any PMs by any user on this site. Bruce, Scott, either you're making stuff up, or I am. But, seeing as I don't have access to those files and it is physically impossible for me to do so without hacking into a database which I don't have access to and then figure out the DB fields where it might be stored, then I'm going to guess it's you guys making stuff up. I'd appreciate it if you didn't go around spreading such lies

Secondly - With reference to this case, I've put a temporary block on the two accounts as a precautionary step while I look into it further.

I'll update more in the next couple of days.

Twill

[RashidJelzin]

Just get William Wallace to post it [a screenshot]... why make such a fuss about it? Personally I couldn't care less, but you may be well-advised to convice William Wallace to post in this thread- lest you all want to keep running around in a circle.

[Bruceswar]

First off - I have never read any PMs by any user on this site. Bruce, Scott, either you're making stuff up, or I am. But, seeing as I don't have access to those files and it is physically impossible for me to do so without hacking into a database which I don't have access to and then figure out the DB fields where it might be stored, then I'm going to guess it's you guys making stuff up. I'd appreciate it if you didn't go around spreading such lies

Just going off what you told me in live chat the morning the ruling came down. I did not save the logs from our conversation, but a moot point. Maybe we got crossed, and you meant to tell me you did not look at any pm's. Anyhow, we will leave it at that.


At the current case, nice to see it reopened.

[Willam-Wallace]

hello its me i will try to stasy neutral in this matter and not be on the accused side or being accused side as my side. But i will help out in any information needed in the matter.

[Kotaro]

William, the only way you can help is to put proof on the side of the accusers, that you DID purposely deadbeat one game, breaking a rule yourself, and then refused to deadbeat another. The proof needed would be a screen shot of the PM where Jeff asked you to deadbeat the game. Without that PM, there is no proof except circumstantial, and easily fake able, evidence.

So either give a screenshot, or say nothing. There really is no neutral; your silence makes the conviction against Jeff Hardy nearly impossible, and the screenshot makes him guilty. Either way, this entire thing depends on your actions with the PM. Everything else is circumstantial, and despite what people believe, the evidence so far is easily fake able, and I could do the same thing to anyone on this site.

Hey Twill, want to play a game? <_<

[General Mojo]

William, the only way you can help is to put proof on the side of the accusers, that you DID purposely deadbeat one game, breaking a rule yourself, and then refused to deadbeat another. The proof needed would be a screen shot of the PM where Jeff asked you to deadbeat the game. Without that PM, there is no proof except circumstantial, and easily fake able, evidence.

So either give a screenshot, or say nothing. There really is no neutral; your silence makes the conviction against Jeff Hardy nearly impossible, and the screenshot makes him guilty. Either way, this entire thing depends on your actions with the PM. Everything else is circumstantial, and despite what people believe, the evidence so far is easily fake able, and I could do the same thing to anyone on this site.

Hey Twill, want to play a game? <_<

Dude, ive asked you over and over again to please stop embarassing yourself. An admission from William is DIRECT, not circumstantial, evidence. Its up to CC to decide whether, when considering the particular facts and circumstances presented, they believe him or not. Its not automatically assumed he is lying. Under your warped perception of justice, we could never have any witnesses in a court of law "because they could be lying." In actuality, its up for the jury to decide who is lying and who is telling the truth. In this case, CC is the jury....and for them, and you, to automatically just dismiss an admission because "he could be lying" is ludicrous.

[Curmudgeonx]

Without a screenshot of the PM in Wallace's account, it does not appear that KA/Twill will have any choice but to note.

But what I do note is that Jeff Hardy has not posted in this thread at all, and that is unlike him not to appreciate the attention.

[RashidJelzin]

Embarassed by his being caught, I am sure!

[Kotaro]

Dude, ive asked you over and over again to please stop embarassing yourself. An admission from William is DIRECT, not circumstantial, evidence. Its up to CC to decide whether, when considering the particular facts and circumstances presented, they believe him or not. Its not automatically assumed he is lying. Under your warped perception of justice, we could never have any witnesses in a court of law "because they could be lying." In actuality, its up for the jury to decide who is lying and who is telling the truth. In this case, CC is the jury....and for them, and you, to automatically just dismiss an admission because "he could be lying" is ludicrous.

In a court of law, there would be someone defending Jeff Hardy, and attacking Williams credibility, which is kind of what I'm doing, minus the attacking. And I think I've made my points loud and clear. If William deadbeats one game for someone, why would he admit it in the open like that? Dead beating is not allowed, at all, hence why point-dumpers get introuble so much. If Jeff robbed a bank, and William drove the escape vehicle, and the penalty for doing both offenses if life in jail/the death penalty, why would William speak up? And why the hell, with all this going on, would William wait to bring evidence forward? And why does he want to remain neutral in this?

In this case, it's not as harsh a punishment, but not everyone wants to pay $25 over and over again. And CC is not the jury; CC is the witness in the crowd. It's the Hunters and Twill that are the Jury. And I'm embarrassing myself? Look how worked up you are over the internet, mate. Maybe you should get off the computer, and let someone who actually has something important to add and contribute to this case take over.

[General Mojo]

You just made my point for me. Of course he has no incentive to incriminate himself. Neither does Jeff Hardy. Yet thats the only evidence you seem to find acceptable, making it impossible to bust people for blatant rule violations. Heck, you won't even accept his direct admission as posted by me in this thread.

What we do know is that there is overwhelming evidence of their guilt, which is why the majority of posts in this thread think this is a pretty open and shut case. Yet, it has been concluded that there is not enough evidence, which is ridiculous and the reason why mulitple people, myself included, are frustrated.

And yes, you have embarassed yourself a number of times throughout this thread. There is definitely direct evidence of that as well.

[Kotaro]

I am Tupac.

By your logic, my overwhelming guilt has caused me to come forward with this information, and it must be 100% true, and that anyone denying my claim is making a fool of themselves by openly admitting it.

In law, the production and presentation of evidence depends first on establishing on whom the burden of proof lies. There are two primary burden-of-proof considerations in law. The first is on whom the burden rests.

In this case, the burden of proof lies on William. However, his only proof is his statement, and if you are to believe his statement, then you must, ethically, take mine as also 100% true.

The second consideration is the degree of certitude proof must reach, depending on both the quantity and quality of evidence.

Quality of evidence: Zero believability, seeing as how anyone on this site can state that anyone else on this site that the first person doesn't like, can make that statement in one of their games, and, with your belief system, should be punished without any physical proof, other then their claims.

The decision maker, often a jury, but sometimes a judge, is required to decide whether the burden of proof has been fulfilled.

Judge, Jury, and neither of them are you, Moja. Twill and his band of crazy-ass-Hunters cannot access PM's, or this would be over. It comes down to whether or not William will come forward with real evidence, other then outlandish claims.

And remember everyone, I am indeed Tupac.

[RashidJelzin]

I am Tupac.

Blablabla

And remember everyone, I am indeed Tupac.

You're not black, you wannabe-whigga.

[General Mojo]

I am done trying to explain to you the many ways that you are wrong....you are too retarded to grasp even the most basic fundamentals of the justice system.


I do however look forward to Twill's take on all of this.

[lancehoch]

Guys, cool it. If William posts the PM, then there will be something to look at. Until that time, or when Twill makes a decision, there is no need for anyone else to post.

[Renegades]

I don't understand the problem. If you're in a situation where you're extremely fucked up and the opponent is going to beat you and take away all your points and you want to degrade yourself by begging for him to throw the game, it simply means:
1: you're waay too addicted to care that much about a few points
2: you're opponent is retarded if he would actually throw the game

but it's not cheating in any form, its communicating and crawling thru the dust

[demonfork]

I don't understand the problem. If you're in a situation where you're extremely fucked up and the opponent is going to beat you and take away all your points and you want to degrade yourself by begging for him to throw the game, it simply means:
1: you're waay too addicted to care that much about a few points
2: you're opponent is retarded if he would actually throw the game

but it's not cheating in any form, its communicating and crawling thru the dust

I agree 100%, furthermore it is stupid that this is continuing, William did NOT TROW THE GAME!!!!