[Abandoned] - New Zealand

[reggie_mac]

ok, i think everyone is missing the point, which is why under the map it says

Please Note- This is Only a resize from the working document, text sizes and fonts will be adjusted once gameplay is sorted

What im trying to work out here is do the territories work, is the number of them ok, is the map now non-liner enough that it won't bottle neck. wayy back in one of the concepts, i had the army circles on, with the names of places in there final areas and a well defined way to show what name is for what territory, i am still working under that premise. But, for now i want to know if the playability of the layout of territories is ok. Because im working with a huge document here, i don't want to get to a point where im going to have to re-draw the whole thing, again. I asked a question about the extra territory and link between islands a month ago, and didn't get much of a response, so this is more to do with a graphical representation of these questions more than anything else.

So, Yes, long-lat lines and scales will be on all maps including insets (it will be an atlas page) and the colour overlay of areas was dropped by 5% i will put it back up to keep the definition, but probably only in the northern areas. Area names, the area names are the same as some of the underlying territories, so i am trying to avoid using them just to avoid confusion.

Does anyone see any playability/layout issues?

[oaktown]

ok, i think everyone is missing the point, which is why under the map it says

Please Note- This is Only a resize from the working document, text sizes and fonts will be adjusted once gameplay is sorted

Alright, fair enough. I got wrapped up in the titles discussion!

The only thing that might bug me about the current layout is how linear that northern region is. I'd feel pretty fortunate to get a drop in Kaitaia, because if I can use that to move down that little region I don't ever have to watch my back. Once I get to Auckland I not only get a bonus, but I can keep marching in one of two directions in which I still have only one enemy territory at my border, and by chosing to go the islands route (while only having to hold one territory in either Auckland or Waikato) I get to expand into another small region.

Of course, the result of all of this would a six territory +3 combination, which is certainly not outrageous. It's the ease of taking it all - just one territory at a time with no enemies at my back - that might lead to an advatageous start for somebody.

Meanwhile, the other regions are nearly impossible to hold: regions with four, five, and five borders. Reducing the southern, +3 region to just 3 borders somehow would make it a more attractive start. Or just make it a +4.

Let me ask you this... not knowing anything about the geographic locations of these islands, does it make sense that they make up a region? Can they logically attack each other more easily than they can attack other places on the mainland? It would be interesting if Sunday and Chatham did not actually connect, but they shared a connection on the mainland which could act like a border for both of them, yet wasn't a part of that bonus.

[reggie_mac]

Let me ask you this... not knowing anything about the geographic locations of these islands, does it make sense that they make up a region? Can they logically attack each other more easily than they can attack other places on the mainland? It would be interesting if Sunday and Chatham did not actually connect, but they shared a connection on the mainland which could act like a border for both of them, yet wasn't a part of that bonus.

Not 100% sure what you mean here, but to answer the first part, no not really, Sunday Island is part of a group of islands called the Kermadec Islands, it just happens to be the largest one. The links between the Outlaying islands are not 'real life' but in maps/atlases etc they are grouped and called the NZ outlaying islands. I can still play with where they sit on the board, and how they are accessed, and where they are accessed from, but the chatham to sunday island link is the key in making sure the map isn't overly linear. I think if i work out how to display the link correctly it won't look so bad. I could possibly even look into bringing in the rest of the islands and adding a few more territories, but then i'd have to do the same with Auckland Island (add in the rest of the Auckland Islands group). But i'd rather not do this. As for connections to the islands, Sunday must be from the North island as its about 900K's north-north-east of NZ, Chatham is about 800Keast of the South island, so must be from the south. and Auckalnd Islands are about 450k South of the south islands. However, Auckland Islands have no permanent human habitation, so could possibly be droppped, then move the link to Chathams from Canterbury to Otago, Sunday from Auckland to Kaitia and drop the outlaying islands bonus alltogther.

Meanwhile, the other regions are nearly impossible to hold: regions with four, five, and five borders. Reducing the southern, +3 region to just 3 borders somehow would make it a more attractive start. Or just make it a +4.

Started out with one less territory and only 3 borders, but i added my home territory in, so i think i'll just make it +4. Because it is a smaller than standard map, most of the areas have a -1 to the over all bonus from the calculator, i will look into making them standard and see how its plays out.

[gho]

I think the bonus for the south area would be fine if you change the connection of aukland island to north otago (better than increasing the bonus because it makes 3 continents which are playable. Otherwise you could make all outlying islands connect to each other (Aukland island also connect to Sunday island) so that capturing the northland continent and the outlying island continent wont be so easy. Otherwise i like the playability. I prefer closed type maps like this one (love indochina, although i hate the +3 bonus for cochinchina)

[oaktown]

I think the bonus for the south area would be fine if you change the connection of aukland island to north otago (better than increasing the bonus because it makes 3 continents which are playable. Otherwise you could make all outlying islands connect to each other (Aukland island also connect to Sunday island) so that capturing the northland continent and the outlying island continent wont be so easy.

both are good suggestions.

However, Auckland Islands have no permanent human habitation, so could possibly be droppped...

Hmm, uninhabited islands? I don't know dick about New Zealand (though I enjoyed watching the Lord of the Rings films) so whether or not it makes sense to include these uninhabited islands on a strategic map of the country is your call. You'd have 32 territories, I think, which is still a nice number. It would mean 2/3 player games get ten instead of eleven starts, which might be good anyway because then it takes two rounds to get up to a drop of four armies, rather than one lucky round. Starts in all other games would not be affected.

... then move the link to Chathams from Canterbury to Otago, Sunday from Auckland to Kaitia ...

Or leave the Chathams link in Canterbury, which makes the southern continent a more reasonable +3 with three borders. I would put the sea routes in the places where they make the most sense - is Auckland a bigger port than Kaitia? If you were to sail to these islands with a landing craft full of soldiers, from where would you most likely do so?

... and drop the outlaying islands bonus alltogther.

Or just make it a +1 bonus. If somebody held both the islands and the north region it would then only be a +2 for five territories with two borders to defend - totally reasonable, even on a smallish map. And odds are there would be more than one player going after these regions, so the advantage may actualy go to the guy who starts elsewhere unmolested.

[reggie_mac]

Righto, Because theme im going with is an Atlas style map, I've decided to go down a different path than above (or below depending on forum settings). I'll be keeping the Main islands the same, but im going to add in All of the NZ regions, So Sunday Island will be getting the rest of the Kermadec Islands ( Macauley, Curtis, L'Esperance Rock, Chesseman), Auckland Islands will get the rest of the sub antartic islands ( Antipodes Islands, Bounty Islands, Campbell Island group, The Snares) and Chatham Islands will have Pitt Island included, and maybe some of the others, but they are so small so maybe not)

How im going to sort out regional groups/bonuses etc etc is going to be fun.

[gimil]

Hi reg,

I got some graphical nit picks for you at the moment but I won't go in to deep on graphical comments since gameplay is still being discussed.

-Firstly I feel that the continent colours on the main map need some beefing up. I know that your trying to have the geographic landscape coming through the colours but right now everything on the mainland feel a little bland.

-Secondly, the blue lattitude and longitute grid in the backgroud (in my opinion) is far to prominent and takes my attention away from the map itself. Simply reducing the opaclty should help it blend into the background.

Cheers for listening

[reggie_mac]

-Firstly I feel that the continent colours on the main map need some beefing up. I know that your trying to have the geographic landscape coming through the colours but right now everything on the mainland feel a little bland.

Yup, Got ya there, still trying to get the feel right, its a tough one to sort out, cause if i increase the colour overlay too much, the tree areas start to look purple, im thinking i may try to go for more of a stroke/fade/feather like thing, that way i can have the border areas a bit darker, i've played with it a few times, but havn't got the mix right yet.

-Secondly, the blue lattitude and longitute grid in the backgroud (in my opinion) is far to prominent and takes my attention away from the map itself. Simply reducing the opaclty should help it blend into the background.

Ooops. my bad, they are still the same colour from when i had the brighter oceans on it , i'll tone them down a bit, along with the Ocean naming colours as well, something i'd completely over looked.

[grant.gordon]

Just a suggestion Reggie, you could maybe have the ports interlinking somehow that would give you snother route into Northland.The main ports are in Northland, Auckland, Bay of Plenty, Hawkes Bay, Taranaki, Wellington, Canterbury, Otago and Southland. Even to plot a course from a few of them may help to stop the bottleneck. Hopefully this isn't to much of a mission, it seems like an easy fix to me and I want to start playing on this map.

[grant.gordon]

By the way Go Waikato, and there are 2 ports in Auckland. 1 on each coast

[reggie_mac]

Just a suggestion Reggie, you could maybe have the ports interlinking somehow that would give you snother route into Northland.The main ports are in Northland, Auckland, Bay of Plenty, Hawkes Bay, Taranaki, Wellington, Canterbury, Otago and Southland. Even to plot a course from a few of them may help to stop the bottleneck. Hopefully this isn't to much of a mission, it seems like an easy fix to me and I want to start playing on this map.

This was where i had started, but i moved away from ti as it didn't like the lack of structure it brought to the map. When i can get some time to put in the new bits and pieces i possibly may look into it again, or at the least trying to bring a few more into the mix with all of the other stuff thats going to be going on. I am how ever trying to keep it as simple as possible, so port gimmicks won't be used, only direct lines of attack, still we'll see what happens cause till its quenched nothing is set in stone.

[oaktown]

Hey Reggie, since I haven't had the time that I would like to devote to this map, I've handed the gameplay stamp over to Incadenza on this one. I'll still check in and offer what help I can, and feel free to PM me with questions, but I've been busy in other areas so I didn't feel it was fair to you to have to wait to get my attention on this one.

I am certain that this map is headed in the right direction, and it will be a nice addition to the CC atlas.

[reggie_mac]

Sweet, thanks for keeping me up to date, Unfortunately i haven't had as much time as i'd like on this at the moment either, Also my computer is about to die in the arse so Im moving everything around to a backup machine at the moment. So although progress has slowed down a bit, it hasn't stopped completely. I hope to have a new update done by this weekend, but probably not a graphically intensive as the rest of the map, cause i have alot of redraws to do when i add the new territories in.

[Incandenza]

Hey reggie, it's looking like a strong map thus far. It'll take me a bit to read thru the thread and get up to speed, so I'll have something more substantive for ya in a couple of days.... so no rush.

[sam_levi_11]

I wanna say this is a great looking map, i love the geographical graphics, fits in with what i would of hoped of from a new zealand map. However why is this not carried on with the two islands? They are totally green compared to the rest of the map.

[reggie_mac]

Working on it sam but my computer is in the shop, so probably wont get any updates on-line till ig et it back, im getting everything together for it, and a few changes as well.

[KiwiTaker]

Finally a New Zealand map. Guess I should get out of the Mythology forum more

[Incandenza]

Working on it sam but my computer is in the shop, so probably wont get any updates on-line till ig et it back, im getting everything together for it, and a few changes as well.

Well then I'll probably hold off on any big comprehensive analysis until the new update.

[reggie_mac]

Let me know your thoughts anyway Incandenza, i like to have a fair idea in my head of what im trying to achieve when i sit down to start. Although in saying that, i've been talking to a few people i play this hasbro board game that is kind of similar with and we came up with killer new ideas, however that may mean heading off in a entirely new direction, which im not adverse to at all.

[Incandenza]

Well, at the moment I don't have anything too revelatory, as many of my concerns have been raised earlier in the thread. There's a weird interplay on this map between strategic bottleneck and an excess of tactical connectivity, but that's not news.

And I don't think adding ports or helipads or whatever are going to solve things. I know it was mentioned earlier, but an impassible down the spine of the South Island isn't the worst idea in the world, as it could bring some order to a pretty chaotic area. You could also possibly lose one terit down there (lake district, maybe?) and perhaps add another NZ-adjacent island between sunday and chatham. Perhaps the South Island could be redrawn so that instead of a +3 and +4 bonus, there's a +1 and 2 +3s. None of these are a panacea, just throwing concept out there. The point being, extremely-difficult-to-hold bonuses are not, IMHO, a good thing.

Let me just say that if you have a killer new direction, then by all means take it. As it stands, this is a nice little map that some people will play and will quickly get lost in the shuffle for anyone not in the southern hemisphere. In a weird way, it's neither fish nor fowl: it's not small enough for "assdoodle" games, not big enough for full-dress 6p escalating. This is not a bad thing, as I think it'll make a terrific 2v2 map. But geographical maps by their very nature have a limited audience, and you're competing against fifty other geographical maps of varying stripe.

Don't misunderstand me, it's shaping up to be a perfectly good map, and with some tweaks would become a fine addition to the site. But, y'know, variety is the spice of life.

Plus you could always just post your conceptual new direction for discussion.

[reggie_mac]

Well i got my machine back, and i hope to get an update in before x-mas, and if not then between x-mas and new years.

Basically what im going to try and achieve is how to get around the map with out bottle necking up to much, then i can look into splitting up the bonuses areas a bit more (great idea there Incandenza, chur chur).

I know the shape of the country will make this map difficult to produce, but i'll keep going till i get it right

If i don't get an update done sooner, merry christams everyone.

[Incandenza]

Glad to hear you've gotten your computer issues sorted, reggie, and I look forward to the next draft!

[Blitzaholic]

It looks good reggie, my only wish is if it was a wince bigger, like a few more territories, but if not, kool, just hard to play singles, I guess we could do a 4 or 5 player singles on it, looks to be a solid doubles map though, I mean for size, I like the art work.

[reggie_mac]

Will try to come back to this in a few months, no time at the moment, to much life stuff going on

[MrBenn]

[moved] as reggie_mac will be leaving this for a while.

When you're back on it, post an update and PM one of the CAs, and we'll get you back into the Main Foundry.

MrB