Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [Cleared]

[gordito]

Enlighten Us then - find them all and list them . . .

g.

[BBoz]

And as for your rank.... When playing against multiple opponents in a non-Team game, your rank should probably be cook. However, you make up for it by playing LOTS and Doubles, Triples, Quads and 1vs1 games.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying your aren't any good at playing the game. I am just saying you aren't very skilled at non-team games with multiple opponents.

As too whether my numbers are accurate, I only went back about 2 months. I thought this was a pretty representative sample of your playing. It represents approximately 1/3 of the pages of prior games from your profile.

What numbers do you come up with when you look at the first 6 pages of your played games? Remember to exclude Team Games and 1vs1 games, since those don't tell us how you play against Snake when there are multiple opponents and you guys are adversaries. My numbers may be off by 1 or 2 games, but the ratios are right on target.

[gordito]

Ok - out of all the games I've played with snake as an aversary (non 1on1 or dubs, trips, quads) there are 14 total games

gordito won 4 = thats 28%
snake won 3 = thats 21 %

Both of those numbers show that I (we both) play WORSE when we play against each other not BETTER !! (since our win ratios are > than 50%

that proves it right there - we shouldn't play against each other since we do WORSE when we do - thanks for the tip

no more games against snake - everybody else has a better chance of winning.

g.

[BBoz]

Enlighten Us then - find them all and list them . . .

g.

I challenge anyone using the terms I outlined to prove my numbers off by more than 10%.

1) 1vs1 games are excluded, since Snakedoctor is your only opponent.
2) Team games are excluded because you can't judge your sole play.
3) In the remaining games, compare Gordito and Snakedoctor's win/loss percentages when they are adversaries in the game vs. when they aren't playing against each other.
4) Go back 2 months, i.e. the first 6 pages of Gordito's games listed on his profile.

Those numbers will match or be VERY close to mine. If someone wants to do the full 18 pages using these same guidelines, that might be equally interesting.

P.S. If you do Snakedoctor's going back about 6 months using these terms, you get Win: 22 Loss: 73 23% Win Ratio

[BBoz]

Ok - out of all the games I've played with snake as an aversary (non 1on1 or dubs, trips, quads) there are 14 total games

gordito won 4 = thats 28%
snake won 3 = thats 21 %

Both of those numbers show that I (we both) play WORSE when we play against each other not BETTER !! (since our win ratios are > than 50%

that proves it right there - we shouldn't play against each other since we do WORSE when we do - thanks for the tip

g.

Again Gordito, you left logic out of the figuring. Your "Win Ratio" is based on every game you play, so comparing the figures you came up with to all the 1vs1 and Team games wins you guys have isn't a valid comparison. You have to compare all of the games you guys played against multiple opponents where you were adversaries vs. all the games you played against multiple opponents where your brother wasn't in the game.

[gordito]

Again Gordito, you left logic out of the figuring. Your "Win Ratio" is based on every game you play, so comparing the figures you came up with to all the 1vs1 and Team games wins you guys have isn't a valid comparison. You have to compare all of the games you guys played against multiple opponents where you were adversaries vs. all the games you played against multiple opponents where your brother wasn't in the game.

that's 14 games out of 1700+ !!!

that is an insignificant number so i left that out of the calculation !! (that's about 0.8% BTW)

g.

actually - if you add the two numbers of games together = 3187 games total , so that 14 games where we played against each other only equals 0.4% - that's even worse for you case. You just can't prove what you are saying by throwing numbers around !!

[BBoz]

Yes, the number you play with Snake is not significant of the games you play overall. Except, when you play with Snake in those games, you effectively work together.

If cheating is ok as long as you only do it in 1% of of the games you play, then maybe you are right. Then again, this is the only example we know of. If someone cheats 1% of the time, they are probably doing it more often.

[gordito]

we have only played in 14 games (0.4% of all our games) and i've shown that we loose more often then we win - ?? what are you smoking dude . . .

we play WORSE when we play together - that proves we are cheating ??

whats is your deal ?? i have read about sore losers before but you take the cake !!

nothing you have said or shown, actually everything you have shown contradicts what you are trying to prove, has or can change anything.

Fact - I won because I played better than you, snake and everyone else - (i was lucky -since you took out half of my armies so soon in the beginning of the game)

Fact - you haven't proven anything and can't back anything up with facts (you actually help in defending me by making me look up those stats - thanks )

thanks for the good game - you made things interesting

g.

[BBoz]

actually - if you add the two numbers of games together = 3187 games total , so that 14 games where we played against each other only equals 0.4% - that's even worse for you case. You just can't prove what you are saying by throwing numbers around !!

Again, your logic fails you.

First, 3000+ of the games are irrelevant because you don't play against each other.

The 100 or so where you do, 14 are played with multiple other opponents. Your win percentage is 6 or 43%. Your win percentage when playing the same type of game against others when Snake isn't in the game is about 13%. So you are 3-4 times more likely to win if your brother is playing with you.

[BBoz]

Fact - When you play with your brother, you are substantially more likely to win the game when playing the same type of game without your brother.

Fact - You won that game because your brother wasn't concerned about you attacking him in many situations and he eventually suicided himself on the other players which led to your eventual win.

Your stats are bogus because you aren't comparing things that are equal.

Whether you admit it or realize it or not, you and your brother play unfairly against others when you play together.

We'll let the moderators decide what to do.

/Foe

[gordito]

First, 3000+ of the games are irrelevant because you don't play against each other.

The 100 or so where you do, 14 are played with multiple other opponents. Your win percentage is 6 or 43%. Your win percentage when playing the same type of game against others when Snake isn't in the game is about 13%. So you are 3-4 times more likely to win if your brother is playing with you.

There are only 14 games where we play against each other that's not a 1vs1 - what 100 or so are you talking about ?? I've done the search (gamefinder, with gordito and snakedoctor, clikck 2,3,4,5,6,7,8; click standard, terinator, assassin then click search - that will give you all games that are not 1vs1 where we play against each other)

THERE ARE ONLY 14 GAMES

and again - we do WORSE when we do play against each other !!

and as for the FOE - that just proves that you ARE a sore loser

and that is fine with me

with this attitude the moderators should give you a warning, because you will obviously be doing this to some other "winner" and for just wasting their time !!

I just happen to care what others think of me so i decided to call you out on calling me a cheater

you just proved that you are an ASS - I will not foe you just for your attitude, you played a reasonable game

case dismissed

g.

[BBoz]

and as for the FOE - that just proves that you ARE a sore loser

I FOE'ed you because I don't like playing with people who don't play fairly. I've lost plenty and don't put people on my FOE list because I lost to them.

with this attitude the moderators should give you a warning, because you will obviously be doing this to some other "winner" and for just wasting their time !!

Wow... I have made my point. Without calling you names or making references to your momma like you have done to me repeatedly in game chat. (Yet another reason I don't want to play with you).

You should also remember, I brought up this issue BEFORE you won this particular game. I brought it up and posted when it became clear that you and your brother Snakedoctor weren't playing fairly and treating each other a full on competitors. Instead you were letting him keep his bonuses and he was leaving his flanks with you, completely undefended.

you just proved that you are an ASS - I will not foe you just for your attitude, you played a reasonable game

You are put on my Foe list because you play unfairly and because you are demeaning to others in game chat and on the forums.

You have continued to berate me by saying things in game like "big words coming from you"... "pathetic how you are crying, lieutentant"... "your mother didn't breast feed you enough"

I put you on my Foe list because I don't want to play in rigged games or with people who like to demean others in that way.

[gordito]

This is awesome, please let it all out . . .

it's like a therapy session for you, just i'm not getting paid -

if you don't like my sense of humor, and obviously you DON'T - that's too bad - i think your reactions are hilarious !! There are much worse people out there - goto the flame forum. You are almost as much fun !!

G.

So, when you can't PROVE any of your accusations you go back to things I've said in game chat (things you have taken out of context). So this is all bout calling you names - well i already apologised once

[BBoz]

So, when you can't PROVE any of your accusations you go back to things I've said in game chat (things you have taken out of context). So this is all bout calling you names - well i already apologised once

You have such circuitous logic. I think when you get called out on something, you just try to demean people, call them asses, or otherwise try to belittle them. Anyone can go look at the game chat and see for themselves. Every step of the way you have taken every opportunity to try and get in jabs. I don't really care so much about that as playing fairly.

I think your play proves my point, you are just in denial about it.

[seamusk]

i'm a clanmate of gorditos, so get that out of the way.

But your stats don't make sense BBoz. And even if they did, I see such low numbers of games in them that they are effectively meaningless. I have been there where I've gotten accused of helping someone win at the same time that I earned myself advancement in a tournie. Things are not always as they appear. Obviously, as a clan mate I play Gordito a fair amount and while I'm tempted to call him a lieing, cheating bastard for all the times he has beat me the truth is that he doesn't do any of those things, he is just good at seeing opportunities and taking advantage. oh, and that map does suck. made me want to suicide in the one game i played on it. But the lack of game mechanics analysis in new maps is an issue for another day...

1) You immediately tried to establish a border agreement with Snake.

nothing illegal about that.

2) When I attacked you, your response was to encourage snake to take me out.

that is a good strategy in a multi-player game to try and convince other players to do your dirty work. How is that collusion? and if they had a secret alliance, why would he need to talk Snake into doing anything?

3) While you and Snake did not share a border, you again suggested a border agreement. (neither of these accepted in chat by Snake, but you both appear to have one in practice)
4) For a while now, Snake has had many territs with single armies touching your territories with 10+ armies.

If they didn't share a border, how did they have 1s touching 10s? and why would Gordito have 10s against his brother's territories if he knew he wasn't going to get attacked? And how would a border agreement make sense if they didn't share borders? I mean, how could that possibly be collusion?

None of your complaints make any sense to me. I don't think there is any merit to your complaint.

[lancehoch]

Guys, I think this has gone on long enough. Unless you have evidence to prove that Gordito and Snakedoctor had a secret alliance (evidence which has not already been presented in this thread) or you have evidence proving that there was not a secret alliance (again, new evidence which has not already been presented), please refrain from posting. Any more personal attacks, name calling, or baiting will result in a friendly PM warning.

[mwcc]

we have only played in 14 games (0.4% of all our games) and i've shown that we loose more often then we win - ?? what are you smoking dude . . .
g.

Whatever it is I want some cause it seems like some good sh*t

[BBoz]

More information for your consideration... Snake and Gordito just played 3 games together.

Game 3395092 - In 10 rounds of playing together, NEVER attacked each other. Escallating game, Gordito was eliminated first.
Game 3394422 - In 6 rounds of playing together, only attacked each other once on the same territory w/1 territ. Used to get a card for the round, did not take away the other's bonus. Neither attacked any other player that round. The remainder of the rounds, they did not attack each other.
Game 3394599 - In 13 rounds, NEVER attacked each other until the final play. Snake took out everyone in the game before finally taking out his brother, Gordito.

In 29 rounds of gameplay, Snake and Gordito only attacked each other once. And that time, it appears to be for the sole purpose of obtaining a card for the turn because no other players were attacked.

To me, this seems to continue to be a trend.

[seamusk]

why can i read your notes to self in that middle game BBoz? that is weird.

[BBoz]

That's odd. might be some kind of bug.

Submitted a bug post about it. http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=67279

[chemefreak]

I'm sorry. I know Gordito is in my clan, but I think this needs to be said. In the three games listed in the above post Gordito and Snake were playing in games with some of the finest players on CC. In one of those games neither won, in the one escalating game Snake killed everyone in the game. In the other Snake was eliminated by a different player. A quick peak at BBoz's games played shows that he/she most often plays in public games against noobs. {And 250 of his/her 450 games are private games against the same two people.} Snake and Gordito are part of the Officer's Mess. They don't join games with noobs in them...which increases the likelihood that they will be in the same games. As far as I can tell, no one in those games has ever complained about their play, and those are the players most likely to spot collusion or a secret alliance. I have actually noticed the opposite trend with these two guys. I think that they actually attack eachother early and often in most games just to mess with eachother. Bboz seems to have spent a lot of time trying to find games where they did not attack eachother early and often. I have a life and do not have the time to sort through Bboz's games, but I'm sure if he/she played against the same players multiple times we could kind a few games where there was a lack of attacking at the beginning of the games. Anyway, just thought this needed to be pointed out. Thanks.

[BBoz]

Chemefreak... One thing I wanted to point out... I have not gone out of my way to find games. I have simply looked at public, non-team games. Similar to the type of game I played with Snake and Gordito.

Look, the mods can make their choice. I was just making my case by pointing out how they have played in the game against me and the other games they have played together in recently. I didn't cherry pick the games, these are the ones they were playing.

Your comments also prove my point to some degree. The only reason Snake and Gordito particularly have so many points is from 1vs1 games. It seems when they are "playing with the best" they need to avoid attacking each other and focus on the others in the game in order to have a chance at winning.

As to my play, I play against those close to my rank. Besides, the issue here isn't who I play with, but how Snake and Gordito play. Let's also keep in mind too Chemefreak... Your Guild association isn't the only thing that links you to your cousins.

[gordito]

Game 3395092 - In 10 rounds of playing together, NEVER attacked each other. Escallating game, Gordito was eliminated first.

In escalating games, this happens - you deploy,wait; deploy, wait, and start taking cards around round 5 unless someone makes it easy to take a card. We were not even close together in that game - so how could I attack HIM ?? and why waste my armies . . . and I lost . . . how is that CHEATING

Game 3394422 - In 6 rounds of playing together, only attacked each other once on the same territory w/1 territ. Used to get a card for the round, did not take away the other's bonus. Neither attacked any other player that round. The remainder of the rounds, they did not attack each other.

This game is in round 18, once again we weren't even close together, and at the moment I'm not winning either - how did he help me or I him - THAT is what you are trying to prove here . . . right ??? If we did one of us would have one the last two game !!!

Game 3394599 - In 13 rounds, NEVER attacked each other until the final play. Snake took out everyone in the game before finally taking out his brother, Gordito.

This is maybe another example of your inexperience (not being rude here - sorry if you take it that way), in esc card games you deploy, wait, and do it again and again until the card bonus is big enough where you can take out another player and get their cards and steamroll through . . . i think everybody would agree with this . . . I was the strongest player (most armies on the board) right before Snake started this . . . which means i would be the last person he could take out because he needed to increase his attacking troops with each successive card bonus . . . in esc cards games they are all won this way . . . how is that CHEATING if he got the luck enough to take us all out . . . i had a set too and i was planning to win, he just got there first.

So far you have NOT shown any ODD behavior - that's the way the games are played. And yes, we are in the same group "officers mess" with some great players - just trying to learn from them - so we will be playing together whenever games come up in that group - which isn't that often actually. All you have shown is that we do play together, and if that is true what Chemefreak sound out that YOU play with alot of the same people - whats to say that you aren't cheating too - i just have not had the time or interest in you to waste my time and look up to see who your "friends" are - maybe the mods will look into that too. As far as i'm concerned you are wasting my time, and the mods time with this crap.

In a private message yeti_c wrote:

Hi Guys,

After a couple of comments in the game that you 2 were in - I asked the opinion of all of your opponents on the game.

Of the 6 people I asked - 4 people replied - I'm assuming a No reply means that they didn't feel you cheated.

2 N/A
1 in favour of you.
1 on the fence.
2 thinking that your play was suspect.

So in light of this I'm going to let the result stand - so Gordito you are through to the final...

However - I will offer you a *friendly* warning - take it as you want to...

I would suggest you avoid playing games where you are against each other as well as other people - From personal experience I find it difficult playing with friends and strangers - as you instinctively would prefer your friends to win (if you can't) and this can manifest it subsconciously without you realising. Or on the flip side - sometimes I find I want to hurt my friends more - and end up losing the game for both of us!!

Anyways - Congratulations on advancing Gordito and good luck in the final.

C.

HE is a highly respected person in CC, and he believes that this was a case of mistaken paranoia - as do many other - even the people in the game where all this has started. If things looked suspicious than thats the fault of the person (i.e. BBoz) who believes they is a conspiracy - NOT one other person has said anything against me . . . and many for me and my character. I'm sorry you got eliminated and feel cheated . . . why still bringing this up ??

Guys, I think this has gone on long enough. Unless you have evidence to prove that Gordito and Snakedoctor had a secret alliance (evidence which has not already been presented in this thread) or you have evidence proving that there was not a secret alliance (again, new evidence which has not already been presented), please refrain from posting. Any more personal attacks, name calling, or baiting will result in a friendly PM warning.

You still haven't proven anything -just more conjecture : they have asked for PROOF - and i don't know how you can get that since we just play together sometimes, we just happen to be brothers and that is your reason to see conspiracy.

I'm done wasting my time with you. I hope we can play again sometime, you are not my FOE, just someone who has a grudge against me as I see it. Have fun out there.

g.

[BBoz]

In a private message yeti_c wrote:

Hi Guys,

After a couple of comments in the game that you 2 were in - I asked the opinion of all of your opponents on the game.

Of the 6 people I asked - 4 people replied - I'm assuming a No reply means that they didn't feel you cheated.

2 N/A
1 in favour of you.
1 on the fence.
2 thinking that your play was suspect.

So in light of this I'm going to let the result stand - so Gordito you are through to the final...

However - I will offer you a *friendly* warning - take it as you want to...

I would suggest you avoid playing games where you are against each other as well as other people - From personal experience I find it difficult playing with friends and strangers - as you instinctively would prefer your friends to win (if you can't) and this can manifest it subsconciously without you realising. Or on the flip side - sometimes I find I want to hurt my friends more - and end up losing the game for both of us!!

Anyways - Congratulations on advancing Gordito and good luck in the final.

C.

HE is a highly respected person in CC, and he believes that this was a case of mistaken paranoia - as do many other - even the people in the game where all this has started. If things looked suspicious than thats the fault of the person (i.e. BBoz) who believes they is a conspiracy - NOT one other person has said anything against me . . . and many for me and my character. I'm sorry you got eliminated and feel cheated . . . why still bringing this up ??
g.

Two points I want to make about this.

1) Three people (1/2) of those in the game besides you and Snake thought your play was suspect or were on the fence about it. Only 1 person supported you and the other 2 didn't want to get involved. While Yeti allowed you to continue in the tournament, this is not an exoneration of your play. HALF (3 of 6) of the other players in the game questioned your play.

2) Yeti did not state he felt it was "mistaken paranoia". I think you read into that what you wanted to read into that. Maybe you should slow down and read it more carefully.
I would suggest you avoid playing games where you are against each other as well as other people - ... - as you instinctively would prefer your friends to win (if you can't) and this can manifest it subsconciously without you realising.

Finally, Secret Alliances are hard to prove. A bias in your gameplay with your brother is hard to prove. As I have said before and Yeti_c's comments seem back me up on this, you may not realize it, but you have a bias in game when playing with your brother against others. I made my point based on observations. Look at the those 3 games I listed. In 29 turns you guys only attacked each other once. Some of the play points about tactics you make are legit. But it's not any one circumstance. It is the culmination of your play. Time and again, you and Snake avoid attacking each other until the end. You clearly don't see the bias you have towards him and don't realize how this impacts others who play with you.

I do agree with you on one point. Time for the mods to make their decision on this and move on.

[gordito]

Hi Guys,

After a couple of comments in the game that you 2 were in - I asked the opinion of all of your opponents on the game.

Of the 6 people I asked - 4 people replied - I'm assuming a No reply means that they didn't feel you cheated.

2 N/A
1 in favour of you.
1 on the fence.
2 thinking that your play was suspect.

So in light of this I'm going to let the result stand - so Gordito you are through to the final...

However - I will offer you a *friendly* warning - take it as you want to...

I would suggest you avoid playing games where you are against each other as well as other people - From personal experience I find it difficult playing with friends and strangers - as you instinctively would prefer your friends to win (if you can't) and this can manifest it subsconciously without you realising. Or on the flip side - sometimes I find I want to hurt my friends more - and end up losing the game for both of us!!

Anyways - Congratulations on advancing Gordito and good luck in the final.

C.

I really do LOVE your logic BB., too bad it's so warped !

This is how those comments break down:

1 person on the fence means he doesn't believe it either way it went down - his vote is a nullified - they don't count
1(3) in favor of ME - yeah (actually 3 people - whomever that is, myself and snake since we both say we didn't cheat)
1 besides you thought there was something suspect - who ever he, he never said anything in chat or has backed you up in this forum - sorry you have no support
2 with no comment - which as yeti_c says are in favor of me (his commentary not mine) meaning that I did not cheat

so that's 2 people not 3, and that doesn't make HALF (as you claim) of the people in that game because there were 8 people in total - which is 25% - and they - those 2 people (including you) THINK there was something suspect. The other 5 (63%) believe I won fairly. So 63% vs. 25% - I still like my odds

You have a way of bending those numbers to mean what you want, above is the truth !

And if you read the last comment by yeti_c its more like : play with your friends but beware - you may win or you may loose. So whats the fun of this site if you cant play with your friends ?? And he points out that it might be subconsciously - I can't be faulted for that - who has control of their subconscious ?? And he said he does the same thing to his friends, so you calling him a cheater too ??? I think if we go by your guidelines for cheating than EVERYBODY on this site who has played against a friend is guilty !! wouldn't you agree ??

I still feel sorry for you, sorry that you lost and feel cheated. IF yeti_c thought i cheated then i wouldn't have moved into the next round. Maybe i'll see you in a future tournament? that would be nice !

g.