Poker Club [Quenched]

[BBoz]

(Updated with some adjust numbers that work better)

Been playing around with the numbers a little to balance out the number of territories and armies you have to get along with the point rewards.

Just to give everyone some idea of my thoughts and what I see the difficulties are with point rewards...
- Trips: Only requires 3 cards (less than required for 2 pair)
- 4 of a Kind: Only requires the same number of cards as 2 pair.
- Flush: Too many generic options. only requires any 5 suited cards. Less difficult to get on a cc map than a straight.
- Full house: Just a pair and trips. Statistically harder to get in a real game of poker than on cc map.

So, I think you have to balance with armies and a little with maybe giving the same bonus to what would normally be a higher level poker hand. That or really get detailed about card placement on the map which just seems like it would be a nightmare.

So, sorta building on my comments from above... All A's Q's K's J's and 6's are neutrals. I changed the army numbers a little with A and J's have 6 Neutrals, Black K's and Red Q's have 6 as well. Remaining K, Q, 6's have 4 Neutrals. All the other card values have 2 of their suits as 4 neutrals (see above).

I calculate the "army value" of each hand below by using the number of armies required to hold or take a given hand. So that the Full House and 4 of a Kind don't have too few armies required, I calculated their armies based on having the requirement that at least 2 of the cards in the Full House and 4 of a Kind must be "paint" (J,Q,K,A). (This does basically mean that a 4 of a Kind can only be J, Q, K, A)

Code: Select all

             ===ARMY VALUE===          Suggested Army Award
            Nothing                             2
             Pair = 6                           4
            2Pair = 12                          5
            Trips = 10                          5
         Straight = 16                          7
            Flush = 16                          7
       Full House = 18*                         9
      4 of a Kind = 20*                         11
   Straight Flush = 20                          12
      Royal Flush = 27                          15



I know this ends up with some high army numbers to have to take starting out. I tried with using 3/5 instead of 4/6 but the hand values don't work out right. So, given the higher armies, I thought maybe each player getting a 1 Army "ante" each round in addition to the hand values would balance that out.

[yeti_c]

BBoz - you're forgetting a couple of important factors that are poker based with your analysis...

Yes - it may be strictly easier to hold 3 of one card than 2 pairs... but the combinations of triples are lower than the combinations of 2 pair.

And also straights & flushes are different - you have to also remember the number of combinations of each card can make up a flush/straight...

It is a lot easier to back up a straight with upto 20 cards back up (of course if you had all 20 you would have 4 of a kind) than a flush with only upto 13 cards to back it up.

C.

[yeti_c]

If you only have 16 starting locations, you end up with the following breakdowns..
2 Players = 8 Cards Each
3 Players = 5 Cards Each
4 Players = 4 Cards Each
5 Players = 3 Cards Each
6 Players = 2 Cards Each
7 Players = 2 Cards Each
8 Players = 2 Cards Each

Just to point out here...

2 players is the same as 3 players (2 humans plus 1 neutral) - so 2 players would have 5 cards each...

So the breakdown would be

2 Players = 5 Cards Each
3 Players = 5 Cards Each
4 Players = 4 Cards Each
5 Players = 3 Cards Each
6 Players = 2 Cards Each
7 Players = 2 Cards Each
8 Players = 2 Cards Each

Which is actually starting to convince me... as in various different forms of poker - you can start with all of these numbers of cards.

So 52 - 16 = 36 neutrals.

This then starts the question - where would you have these neutrals...

My original plan was

A Clubs K Spades Q Hearts J Diamonds 10 Clubs 9 Spades 8 Hearts 7 Diamonds 6 Clubs 5 Spades 4 Hearts 3 Diamonds

So that's the first 12. I would then definitely add 2 Clubs. as this stops all 4 of a kind on a drop. so that's 13.

So far we have lost
4 clubs - 3 diamonds - 3 hearts - 3 spades.

We can stop flushes - as we need to leave 16 cards so we only need 4 of any suit left over.

And we can stop straights - by making all of certain cards out too. i.e. to stop straights - we could block all 10's and all 6's.

Next to stop would then by full house - which by defacto would be to stop 3 of a kind.

So to stop 3 of a kind we need another 13 neutrals down the suits as before... say...

A Hearts K Diamonds Q Clubs J Spades 10 Hearts 9 Diamonds 8 CLubs 7 Spades 6 Hearts 5 Diamonds 4 Clubs 3 Spades 2 Hearts

So now we have 13 + 13 + 2 + 2 = 30 - and we just need to lose 6 more.

So now we have lost
4 clubs - 3 diamonds - 3 hearts - 3 spades. (First run)
3 clubs - 3 diamonds - 4 hearts - 3 spades.
1 Diamond 1 Spade (10's)
1 Diamond 1 spade (6's)

4 + 3 = 7 clubs.
3+3+2 = 8 Diamonds.
3+3+2 = 8 Spades
4+3 = 7 Hearts.

So we need to lose 2 more Hearts & Clubs and 1 more Diamonds & Spades.

How about we put another set of stripes in? to stop straights even more...

So 3's and 8's and K's?

These stripes would take out

1 Heart 1 Club (K's)
1 Diamond 1 spade (8's)
1 Heart 1 Club (3's)

So the full list of neutrals are...

A Clubs K Spades Q Hearts J Diamonds 10 Clubs 9 Spades 8 Hearts 7 Diamonds 6 Clubs 5 Spades 4 Hearts 3 Diamonds
A Hearts K Diamonds Q Clubs J Spades 10 Hearts 9 Diamonds 8 CLubs 7 Spades 6 Hearts 5 Diamonds 4 Clubs 3 Spades 2 Hearts
K Hearts K Clubs
10 Diamonds 10 Spades
8 Diamonds 8 Spades
6 Diamonds 6 Spades
3 Hearts 3 Clubs

=36 cards.

Thoughts anyone?

C.

[Ditocoaf]

Well, if we're not going to change the XML...

You might want to consider basing starting placement not on the cards themselves, but on the postion on the map. If all the player-owned territs were together at, say, the bottom, then there would be more fighting right off the bat as they worked their way up the map.

[BBoz]

Yeti, thanks for the sanity check there on the straights and flushes. Re-thinking it in my head, what you say makes sense. I looked at the original bonuses and seems pretty reasonable. I might even be tempted to make it an extra point spread between a straight and a flush, but I think that will really come down to how the gameplay works.

Ditocoaf, I can see that being an interesting scenario. Might be a way to tweak the map if the gameplay isn't working well with the scattered cards. (just my opinion).

Yeti, I got a little lost in your figuring on the cards for neutral so I created a little chart below based on what I was able to extract so it was visually easier for me to look at. I only came up with 31 neutrals, but I probably missed something in your description. That's probably why my suit totals are off too. I think we are basically on the same page on this though.

Code: Select all

                   
 A  h _ c _       7 _ d _ s
 K  h d c s       6 h _ c _
 Q  h _ c _       5 _ d _ s
 J  _ d _ s       4 h _ c _
10 h _ c _       3 h d c s
_9 _ d _ s       2 h
_8 h d c s

H=9 D=7 C=8  S=7  Total: 31

I took your basis and made a few changes to get to 36...
- Basically re-arranged the royal flush area a little to make it where 4 of each suit were neutrals.
- Made neutral 2s, changed 9 to d,c being neutral to balance out the suits.

Code: Select all

                           
 A  _ d c s       7 _ d _ s
 K  h d c s       6 h _ c _
 Q  h d c _       5 _ d _ s
 J  h d _ s       4 h _ c _
10 h _ c s       3 h d c s
_9 _ d c _       2 h _ _ s
_8 h d c s

H=9 D=9 C=9  S=9  Total: 36

What do ya think?

I can't wait to play it.

[yeti_c]

Code: Select all

                   
 A  h _ c _       7 _ d _ s
 K  h d c s       6 h d c s
 Q  h _ c _       5 _ d _ s
 J  _ d _ s       4 h _ c _
10 h d c s       3 h d c s
_9 _ d _ s       2 h _ c _
_8 h d c s

H=9 D=9 C=9  S=9  Total: 31

I've fixed your diagram... - you'd missed 10's & 6's - and the 2 of Clubs.

What do you reckon to that idea first - then I'll discuss yours - and we can trade relative merits?

C.

[BBoz]

The only tweak I would make would be to make 2 and 5 the all neutrals rather than 3 and 6. The reason for that is it makes it so you have to take 2 territs in order to get any straight. The one that is off from that in your model is A-2-3-4-5. Moving the neutrals to 2/5 would make sure all straights require at least 2 to get.

[yeti_c]

The only tweak I would make would be to make 2 and 5 the all neutrals rather than 3 and 6. The reason for that is it makes it so you have to take 2 territs in order to get any straight. The one that is off from that in your model is A-2-3-4-5. Moving the neutrals to 2/5 would make sure all straights require at least 2 to get.

The problem with that - is it would push the suit count off - and would then allow flushes of Clubs & Hearts... -> Also remember - that the Aces are hard cards to get on the board - as they are so far spread out. (Which means that you'd have less back up if someone took one of your aces)

Also - we do want some chance of getting hands... if we restrict it down too much - then it might make the game too slow and boring.

C.

[BBoz]

Seems reasonable. I agree though that something needs to help spur the game.

At this point, I would defer to you on the placement given the amount of time you have spent on this map. Since the "continents" in this map are so different from other maps, I think you are only going to find strange hand problems after playing it a bit. Most of my changes would be personal preference.

The starting territory numbers and general selection of the neutrals looks good to me.

[yeti_c]

Seems reasonable. I agree though that something needs to help spur the game.

At this point, I would defer to you on the placement given the amount of time you have spent on this map. Since the "continents" in this map are so different from other maps, I think you are only going to find strange hand problems after playing it a bit. Most of my changes would be personal preference.

The starting territory numbers and general selection of the neutrals looks good to me.

Excellent stuff - Like you say - as the gameplay is so complex - we won't find out the best places - til some people play it...

If we've unleashed a monster - then a post quench change could always happen.

I like this new starting idea - as this will give us a lot less "2 player sucks" feedback.

I will update the first post with the new neutrals tomorrow - BBoz - thanks for your help.

C.

[oaktown]

my only concern with starting with just 16 starting positions is that somebody could get knocked out very early... like round 1 early! Clustering the starts (as somebody suggested) is a bad idea - I'd say spread them out so everybody gets at least one round in.

I don't have any concerns with the card locations, though I'm sure I've missed something. This map screams out for play-testing.

I'll check in on this thread more regularly now that my time is freed up.

[hulmey]

my only concern with starting with just 16 starting positions is that somebody could get knocked out very early... like round 1 early! Clustering the starts (as somebody suggested) is a bad idea - I'd say spread them out so everybody gets at least one round in.

I don't have any concerns with the card locations, though I'm sure I've missed something. This map screams out for play-testing.

I'll check in on this thread more regularly now that my time is freed up.

Maybe , someone can print it out and test play it over MSN or sumthing. I would help if needed....

[Blitzaholic]

yeti, i am not sure this is going to work out, i luv the idea, in fact i wish you would or somebody would do a las vegas casino's map which i been asking for about 2 years now seriously, sighs


anyways, if you are going to have all the cards laid out messy on a texas holdem table, we need to think about this, are you using all 52 cards in the deck? is there jokers? what are the bonus's? and how bout attacking? not a good idea if all can attack all 4 sides of every single card? good grief. perhaps have diamonds attack diamonds, or spades can only attack spades maybe, i need another update so i can see this again. I like the idea, but i am more of a visual person, so need to see more please.

[yeti_c]

yeti, i am not sure this is going to work out, i luv the idea, in fact i wish you would or somebody would do a las vegas casino's map which i been asking for about 2 years now seriously, sighs


anyways, if you are going to have all the cards laid out messy on a texas holdem table, we need to think about this, are you using all 52 cards in the deck? is there jokers? what are the bonus's? and how bout attacking? not a good idea if all can attack all 4 sides of every single card? good grief. perhaps have diamonds attack diamonds, or spades can only attack spades maybe, i need another update so i can see this again. I like the idea, but i am more of a visual person, so need to see more please.

Hmmm - Can I suggest you check the first post?

The latest image is there in all it's glory - with bonuses - and description of starts etc.

C.

[yeti_c]

my only concern with starting with just 16 starting positions is that somebody could get knocked out very early... like round 1 early! Clustering the starts (as somebody suggested) is a bad idea - I'd say spread them out so everybody gets at least one round in.

I don't have any concerns with the card locations, though I'm sure I've missed something. This map screams out for play-testing.

I'll check in on this thread more regularly now that my time is freed up.

Yeah - I can hear your concern here - What I need to do is to take WM's image- and mark what are and aren't neutrals - some areas may be start heavy - and some might be neutral heavy... as I've merely based my neutrals on card number/suit - not on location on the map.

(Agreed on playtesting)

C.

[yeti_c]

OK - I've put coloured dots in to show the locations of the neutrals and the starting positions.

Neutral locations

Click image to enlarge.

Comments?

C.

[BBoz]

Looks a little heavily weighted on the top. Looking at it I was thinking you could swap the follow card sets and get a pretty good distribution.

4d and 4h
Jc and Js
5c and 5s

Swapping the card locations on the map, not changing the suits chosen for neutrals.

Looks like that would keep than 2 placed armies from touching and spaces the placements throughout the board pretty well.

[BBoz]

Thinking about it a little more, I am wondering if you want to make sure none touch. If you have 2 placements touching that someone then uses to take out the placement of another person with only 2 cards, that leaves them with only one spot. You could easily have someone get whiped out the first round in a 6-8 person game.

So maybe this would be better...

Swap

4d and 4c
Jc and Js
7h and 7d

[yeti_c]

Thinking about it a little more, I am wondering if you want to make sure none touch. If you have 2 placements touching that someone then uses to take out the placement of another person with only 2 cards, that leaves them with only one spot. You could easily have someone get whiped out the first round in a 6-8 person game.

So maybe this would be better...

Swap

4d and 4c
Jc and Js
7h and 7d

I think I agree...

Except for the JC & JS...

They were swapped around recently due to high flush potential...

How about moving Moving the JC to where JH is - JH to where JS is and JS to where JD is and JD to where JC is.

(Other 2 changes look good here)

C.

[Crowley]

Damn, this looks like an awesomely fun map. I can't wait to play it.

[WidowMakers]

Thinking about it a little more, I am wondering if you want to make sure none touch. If you have 2 placements touching that someone then uses to take out the placement of another person with only 2 cards, that leaves them with only one spot. You could easily have someone get whiped out the first round in a 6-8 person game.

So maybe this would be better...

Swap

4d and 4c
Jc and Js
7h and 7d

I think I agree...

Except for the JC & JS...

They were swapped around recently due to high flush potential...

How about moving Moving the JC to where JH is - JH to where JS is and JS to where JD is and JD to where JC is.

(Other 2 changes look good here)

C.

so make these changes on the small map? Are there any bonus value changes? I would like to get all of this done before I setup the large

WM

[yeti_c]

so make these changes on the small map? Are there any bonus value changes? I would like to get all of this done before I setup the large

WM

Yes please WM.

Bonuses I think are staying for now... there hasn't been much talk about that.

C.

[BBoz]

How about moving Moving the JC to where JH is - JH to where JS is and JS to where JD is and JD to where JC is.

Sounds good to me.

[yeti_c]

How about moving Moving the JC to where JH is - JH to where JS is and JS to where JD is and JD to where JC is.

Sounds good to me.

Cool.

C.

[WidowMakers]

OK here you go.

I made these changes:

1) 4d and 4c
2) 7h and 7d
3) JC to where JH is
4) JH to where JS
5) JS to where JD
6) JD to where JC

Version 8 (for army number centering)


Version 8


WM