Das Schloß [QUENCHED #2]

[cairnswk]

I posted before and said i loved the map. I've been going back joining all that i can because i can't start a new one (hope to see it back up). I just want to know if you're changing a lot about the maps play (bombard points and not being able to eliminate a player) because i'm already very upset that you'd change anything at all. Also, what bombards the starting positions now since AA and AB can't ? The Kontrolltrum ?

Sorry you don't like the change, but it only means you have to re-learn the map.
nothing can bombard the starting positions. they are all max bonuses every turn at this point.
the kontrollturm may be able to bombard the starts if people want to have assassin games available.

[cairnswk]

Current version 27.

[oaktown]

Alright, haven't read all of the recent feedback, I'm just going off the map itself so apologies for any repetition.

Things I like:
• fewer cable cars.
• helipad changes.
• the open play in the "Inns" - could be fun and bloody in there.
• Kontrollturm being able to knock out previously protected positions.

Things I am less pleased with:
• units who start in the airport have to go all the way back to town to actually engage the airport, unless I'm missing something.
• Kom Wilheim being shoved into the edhge of the map like that - I missed it completely at first look
• many borders are still kind of confusing; airport is very busy now, and the attack routes into AA are so small it will lead to some confusion. You may as well open up the AA doors more to make the attackable border longer, especially on the side with three attack routes.
• "AA bombards bordering positions only" seems like an over-reaction to the previous problem of the guns being too powerful... what if the AA gun was outside the town, able to hit the new road (P1 through Bs5)? This would equate it to AB and force players to consider the cable cars as an alternative to the road.
• I am uncertain as to how the road enters the castle... through Wache Tomas? It's unclear, looks like there's an extra un-named territory, and gives Tomas an advantage.
• Taxiway now serves no purpose, as you can bypass it and go straight from the hangar to the runway.
• Likewise, why would the Markt and Holzwhatever territories ever come into play in a game? They are costly to take and don't go anywhere.
• Kontrollturm seems a bit powerful... and unrealistic that it can hit everything in the castle as well.

Random suggestions:
• now that there are fewer cable cars I don't think it is necessary to be able to attack between cars... it won't be used often, and when it is it will be by mistake (which I've already done on this map). Plus, it makes more sense for players to have to defend the cable cars from the top or bottom, while right now they can defend from the middle.
• Could you open up the attack routes between the small rooms in the castle a bit? For instance, the WC may be able to attack one or two other terits, I'm not sure, as it seems to have both a solid and a dotted line to Tomas.
• Took me a while to figure out that the Soldatem... referred to the rooms above, as the font is a different color than that used for the A, B, C, and other territory names up there.

[pamoa]

Good job,
I'm backing following points

• units who start in the airport have to go all the way back to town to actually engage the airport, unless I'm missing something.
just remove the arrow• Kom Wilheim being shoved into the edhge of the map like that...
make a "house" for him in the upper part of militarlager
• "AA bombards bordering positions only" seems like an over-reaction to the previous problem of the guns being too powerful... what if the AA gun was outside the town, able to hit the new road (P1 through Bs5)? This would equate it to AB and force players to consider the cable cars as an alternative to the road.
• Taxiway now serves no purpose, as you can bypass it and go straight from the hangar to the runway.
• now that there are fewer cable cars I don't think it is necessary to be able to attack between cars... it won't be used often, and when it is it will be by mistake (which I've already done on this map). Plus, it makes more sense for players to have to defend the cable cars from the top or bottom, while right now they can defend from the middle.

some other suggestions:
- the 2 wache-in territs are no use, make one shorter enlarge parkplatz
- the 2 wache-out territs are difficult to see maybe make a division like right K1-3 +5 and left K4 + 6-8
- I really don't like yhe idea of a forever bonus for parachute routes, so if you make check points abble to bombard back the 2 "guys" routes coming in and choose either including the starting point or not you can even solve the assasin game problem in an elegant way
- foot-prints in snow will be too messy, stick to the dotted lin
- if bus schuppen is an objective then switch font
- there is some missing\blurry wall in cablecar starting building
- BS6 ground texture should fade
- use the real game font fo numbers, here an example

I hope it will help, go on!

[cairnswk]

Alright, haven't read all of the recent feedback, I'm just going off the map itself so apologies for any repetition.

Things I like:
• fewer cable cars.
• helipad changes.
• the open play in the "Inns" - could be fun and bloody in there.
• Kontrollturm being able to knock out previously protected positions.

Good.

Things I am less pleased with:
• units who start in the airport have to go all the way back to town to actually engage the airport, unless I'm missing something.

yes. as said previously in other feedback, i have watched several games in current play including my own games, and one thing that comes easily from the current play is that one person gets a hold on the airport terts and gets those bonuses quickly. I didn't want that to happen, so i change it so you have to go all the way to town and fight your way back, at least with the reduced starting bonuses that may change at the airport in future with two lots of 6 neutrals to beat before you can get a chance to have an attack on at least half of the other players.

• Kom Wilheim being shoved into the edhge of the map like that - I missed it completely at first look

I think it is a fitting position, although i will probably modify that area thinking about it so that Wes and Hans have easier access to the Militärlager.

• many borders are still kind of confusing; airport is very busy now, and the attack routes into AA are so small it will lead to some confusion. You may as well open up the AA doors more to make the attackable border longer, especially on the side with three attack routes.

For AA - remove a few bricks/sandbags.

• "AA bombards bordering positions only" seems like an over-reaction to the previous problem of the guns being too powerful... what if the AA gun was outside the town, able to hit the new road (P1 through Bs5)? This would equate it to AB and force players to consider the cable cars as an alternative to the road.

OK, seems like a plan.

• I am uncertain as to how the road enters the castle... through Wache Tomas? It's unclear, looks like there's an extra un-named territory, and gives Tomas an advantage.

yes, that's goign to be changed so that the entrance is through a neutral tert.

• Taxiway now serves no purpose, as you can bypass it and go straight from the hangar to the runway.

simply forgot a border there, fixed.

• Likewise, why would the Markt and Holzwhatever territories ever come into play in a game? They are costly to take and don't go anywhere.

They are part of the Das Dorf overall bonus. As such it might be beneficial for someone to take if they got that advantage.

• Kontrollturm seems a bit powerful... and unrealistic that it can hit everything in the castle as well.

Yes, that is changing to his airport terts only.

Random suggestions:
• now that there are fewer cable cars I don't think it is necessary to be able to attack between cars... it won't be used often, and when it is it will be by mistake (which I've already done on this map). Plus, it makes more sense for players to have to defend the cable cars from the top or bottom, while right now they can defend from the middle.

OK I can remove that middle cross-over. Done.

• Could you open up the attack routes between the small rooms in the castle a bit? For instance, the WC may be able to attack one or two other terits, I'm not sure, as it seems to have both a solid and a dotted line to Tomas.

Done

• Took me a while to figure out that the Soldatem... referred to the rooms above, as the font is a different color than that used for the A, B, C, and other territory names up there.

Done.

some other suggestions:
- the 2 wache-in territs are no use, make one shorter enlarge parkplatz

On the contrary they are of no use. This is an entrance to the airport and having only one would limit access because someone would stick all their armies on it and block it. Having two is less easily defended by someone if they decide to take those two terts they have to split their army numbers to cover both. Having two also allows someone coming right behind the first invader to chose an alternate route to the objective.

- the 2 wache-out territs are difficult to see maybe make a division like right K1-3 +5 and left K4 + 6-8

ok have improved that with brick walls and widened the airport in that area.

- I really don't like the idea of a forever bonus for parachute routes, so if you make check points abble to bombard back the 2 "guys" routes coming in and choose either including the starting point or not you can even solve the assasin game problem in an elegant way

OK i hear you, but this up for grabs in the poll running now. I will make a decision after the poll and see how that area works on more input from others.

- foot-prints in snow will be too messy, stick to the dotted lin

oh. OK. I thought it might add an extra graphic touch. I'll see if there is any feedback from others.

- if bus schuppen is an objective then switch font

done.

- there is some missing\blurry wall in cablecar starting building

fixed i think?

- BS6 ground texture should fade

Yes, i will fix that whole road in next version.

- use the real game font fo numbers, here an example

can u explain this further. the numbers are not those digit, they are arial 14 font which is the equivalent of that font link.

[cairnswk]

I'm presently re-working the village area to make it more accommodating for the Kom. and group and Militärlager, so don't expect this update straight away.

[bryguy]

1) Its a little hard for me to read Kom Wilhem, it looks mor like Kom Wiiheim when i dont squint
2) Could you add some decay onto the CP's? that way, people couldnt just capture them all and then trap people there without some loss
3) The path, although nice, just doesnt really fit into its background. Maybe change it into footsteps like at philby?
4) The objective has never been all that clear to me.
5) I cant hardly read Bs8, Wache Tomas, Haupstitz B (just the H), and its a little hard for me to figure out which name goes with which parachute

[cairnswk]

1) Its a little hard for me to read Kom Wilhem, it looks mor like Kom Wiiheim when i dont squint
2) Could you add some decay onto the CP's? that way, people couldnt just capture them all and then trap people there without some loss
3) The path, although nice, just doesnt really fit into its background. Maybe change it into footsteps like at philby?
4) The objective has never been all that clear to me.
5) I cant hardly read Bs8, Wache Tomas, Haupstitz B (just the H), and its a little hard for me to figure out which name goes with which parachute

bryguy, have you just had an attack of forgetting your glasses - some of those text haven't changed since this map was quenched. I'm surprised you'd bring that up now.
I will see what i can do to them though for you.

The decay i'll see about depending on feedback from others.
The path is being reverted to dots, some don't like the footsteps, you could convince me otherwise with some more support for the feet from others.
If the objective is not clear, then you do need glasses, it's written quite clearly there and others have no trouble understanding it, or is it that you simply don't understand an objective map?

[oaktown]

If the concern is that the units who start in the airport create a situation in which somebody owns the airport bonus too quickly, it seems like the simpler solution would either be to (A) rework the airport bonus so it doesn't give one player such a large bonus so quickly, or (B) eliminate those starting positions entirely. Why would anybody slog their way back down the road to the town and back when they could just go up from the town in the first place? These units have become simply units of last resort for the player who is screwed everywhere else, and yet they can't really do anything if somebody else owns the city.

Another thing: the units that start as paratroopers are now the weakest on the board, because they have to fight their way through everything to get to all three objective territories while other starting positions are in better position to grab them all. I would grab the paratrooper bonuses, then concentrate on using everybody else, because it doesn't get you anywhere to fight through the Inn only to find yourself behind your opponents already - this wasn't the initial intent of the map.

What if Kom Wilhem was down on the bottom of the map, where Obl Hans and Pvt Wes are now. This would give the paratroopers a fighting chance to achieve at least one of th objectives. You could then run all eight city starts up the road on the right - the barracks - and those players units would be closest to the airport. Then I think I'd remove the airport starting positions entirely since they are pretty useless right now anyway... you could simplify things by making the road to the airport a single, 2-directional road like the one from the town to the castle, and remove that entire section of the airport, K1-K8 and the two wache aus territories.

[cairnswk]

you need to make sure that this game can be finished. As it stands every player starts in the bottom left corner. You cannot attack the first point from anywhere on the map. I tried to take a player out and i could not access him. As you cannot get to his position i can see that these games will never end. Please correct me if im wrong, as i have only got info from my experience of playing the map. If this is the case and there can be no winner please could you get the games that are playing stopped because i don't want to keep playing a map i will never be able to finish.

cheers

sportdaqking...thanks for your comments. I will post a reply in the thread.

Reply: I have won one of my games against 3 players by not going anywhere near cablecars, nor the roads, nor taking the airport completely. This is not an easy map, so ifv you are after a quick solution then i suggest (dare 1) you deadbeat if you don't have the patience to stick out the game nor the fortitude to create a win for yourself.
Eventually someone will win. It just may not be you.
The outcome of the current poll will determine whether this map returns to terminator format i.e. classic play style. If you really want that, then get all your buddies in here and vote for it.

[cairnswk]

If the concern is that the units who start in the airport create a situation in which somebody owns the airport bonus too quickly, it seems like the simpler solution would either be to (A) rework the airport bonus so it doesn't give one player such a large bonus so quickly, or (B) eliminate those starting positions entirely. Why would anybody slog their way back down the road to the town and back when they could just go up from the town in the first place? These units have become simply units of last resort for the player who is screwed everywhere else, and yet they can't really do anything if somebody else owns the city.

I'd be happy to get rid of them if they weren't part of the storyline.
However, past game experience has told me that those who start first and gain the upper hand in the start bonuses, use these bonuses to fort and attack everyone esle at the airport and thus gain the upper hand there.
I think still process will still occur regardless of whether we have high or low bonuses in both areas.

Another thing: the units that start as paratroopers are now the weakest on the board, because they have to fight their way through everything to get to all three objective territories while other starting positions are in better position to grab them all. I would grab the paratrooper bonuses, then concentrate on using everybody else, because it doesn't get you anywhere to fight through the Inn only to find yourself behind your opponents already - this wasn't the initial intent of the map.

What if Kom Wilhem was down on the bottom of the map, where Obl Hans and Pvt Wes are now. This would give the paratroopers a fighting chance to achieve at least one of th objectives. You could then run all eight city starts up the road on the right - the barracks - and those players units would be closest to the airport. Then I think I'd remove the airport starting positions entirely since they are pretty useless right now anyway... you could simplify things by making the road to the airport a single, 2-directional road like the one from the town to the castle, and remove that entire section of the airport, K1-K8 and the two wache aus territories.

Good food for though oaktown. i'll consider this is new design on the board at present.

[yeti_c]

Please please don't ruin this map by making it a non objective map. (i.e. allowing people to be killed)

As stated before - it doesn't matter if people start terminator or assassin games on this one - they're just standard games.

C.

[cairnswk]

Please please don't ruin this map by making it a non objective map. (i.e. allowing people to be killed)

As stated before - it doesn't matter if people start terminator or assassin games on this one - they're just standard games.

C.

Well, the poll is heading in your direction.

[hammer1967]

I like the map a lot however I managed to capture all four territories / rooms on the board but still didn't win! Could you clarify for me please? Thanks Game 2489640!

[bryguy]

1) Its a little hard for me to read Kom Wilhem, it looks mor like Kom Wiiheim when i dont squint
2) Could you add some decay onto the CP's? that way, people couldnt just capture them all and then trap people there without some loss
3) The path, although nice, just doesnt really fit into its background. Maybe change it into footsteps like at philby?
4) The objective has never been all that clear to me.
5) I cant hardly read Bs8, Wache Tomas, Haupstitz B (just the H), and its a little hard for me to figure out which name goes with which parachute

bryguy, have you just had an attack of forgetting your glasses - some of those text haven't changed since this map was quenched. I'm surprised you'd bring that up now.
I will see what i can do to them though for you.

The decay i'll see about depending on feedback from others.
The path is being reverted to dots, some don't like the footsteps, you could convince me otherwise with some more support for the feet from others.
If the objective is not clear, then you do need glasses, it's written quite clearly there and others have no trouble understanding it, or is it that you simply don't understand an objective map?

hmm... maybe i do need glasses

eh idk, i just tried to take a nice good long look at the map and told ya what i saw. I actually like the idea of using dots.

[yeti_c]

Please please don't ruin this map by making it a non objective map. (i.e. allowing people to be killed)

As stated before - it doesn't matter if people start terminator or assassin games on this one - they're just standard games.

C.

Well, the poll is heading in your direction.

Actually I voted for the 2nd option...

As I took the poll to mean...

"Block assassin & termy games" from creation.

Not

"Ensure assassin & termy games can only be won by objective"

C.

[cairnswk]

Please please don't ruin this map by making it a non objective map. (i.e. allowing people to be killed)

As stated before - it doesn't matter if people start terminator or assassin games on this one - they're just standard games.

C.

Well, the poll is heading in your direction.

Actually I voted for the 2nd option...

As I took the poll to mean...

"Block assassin & termy games" from creation.

Not

"Ensure assassin & termy games can only be won by objective"

C.

Not you too? What is with everyone, don't you guys read what is written and interpret from what is written.
Well, your vote is changeable

[yeti_c]

Or could it be that the poll is ambiguous?

C.

[cairnswk]

Or could it be that the poll is ambiguous?

C.

i had considered that....but its quite clear to me, it has even been re-worded and there have only been to people who couldn't interpret what is written.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

Or could it be that the poll is ambiguous?

C.

i had considered that....but its quite clear to me, it has even been re-worded and there have only been to people who couldn't interpret what is written.

It has always been ambiguous.
To my mind there are 3 options:

• Prevent assassin & terminator games being played on this map (up to Lack)
• Allow assassin & terminator games but have them operate like standard games i.e. win by objective only
• Allow assassin and terminator games to exist in their "true' form i.e. be able to eliminate other players

[cairnswk]

Or could it be that the poll is ambiguous?

C.

i had considered that....but its quite clear to me, it has even been re-worded and there have only been to people who couldn't interpret what is written.

It has always been ambiguous.
To my mind there are 3 options:

• Prevent assassin & terminator games being played on this map (up to Lack)
• Allow assassin & terminator games but have them operate like standard games i.e. win by objective only
• Allow assassin and terminator games to exist in their "true' form i.e. be able to eliminate other players

Benjikat....if the map remains an objective only map that is you can only win by taking the objective, then assassin and terminator games can't be played in their trued form.
Therefore to my mind there are only two choices.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

To my mind there are 3 options:

• Prevent assassin & terminator games being played on this map (up to Lack)
• Allow assassin & terminator games but have them operate like standard games i.e. win by objective only
• Allow assassin and terminator games to exist in their "true' form i.e. be able to eliminate other players

Benjikat....if the map remains an objective only map that is you can only win by taking the objective, then assassin and terminator games can't be played in their trued form.
Therefore to my mind there are only two choices.

Problem is that "Objective but also allows terminator or assassin games" can be interpreted as either of the last 2 options above, which is why it seems yeti (and I) initially voted for the wrong one!

[cairnswk]

To my mind there are 3 options:

• Prevent assassin & terminator games being played on this map (up to Lack)
• Allow assassin & terminator games but have them operate like standard games i.e. win by objective only
• Allow assassin and terminator games to exist in their "true' form i.e. be able to eliminate other players

Benjikat....if the map remains an objective only map that is you can only win by taking the objective, then assassin and terminator games can't be played in their trued form.
Therefore to my mind there are only two choices.

Problem is that "Objective but also allows terminator or assassin games" can be interpreted as either of the last 2 options above, which is why it seems yeti (and I) initially voted for the wrong one!

yes but the three options you gave are your workding, not mine. i have the poll, please read and interpret from there, not the options that you think might be there.

[yeti_c]

I'm afraid I agree with Ben here...

C.

[Riazor]

Benjikat....if the map remains an objective only map that is you can only win by taking the objective, then assassin and terminator games can't be played in their trued form.
Therefore to my mind there are only two choices.

I agree

Btw, i dont think it has been mentioned before, but in the castle theres a Kontro 2 & 3, yet the Kontrol 1 & 4 are taken away in the latest version. Or are they hidden somewhere else to still justify the 2 & 3 naming?