Das Schloß [QUENCHED #2]

[cairnswk]

8. (This one will be controversial.) Create a new feature: the Anti Aircraft gun. Turn the tower into an AA battery (since the tower seems kinda useless anyway) which would be capable of knocking out the paratroopers once and for all. It would have to be a pretty costly enterprise - big starting neutral value, killer neutral, etc. - but it would give assassin and terminator games a reason for existence.

oaktown, can you clarify what you mean by "the tower"? please.

[MOBAJOBG]

6. Restore the missing starting locations. It might reduce use of the cable car, but in the games I've played it didn't take long for one player to eliminate the other from the airport in two rounds so I had to fight my way up the road anyway. Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

My responses are in Blue color.

Thks & Rgds.

Thanks MOBAJOBG...there were originally going to be 8 players ( 1 each) start in the castle but i accidentally took them off. and up to this point they have not been returned.
I intend re-instating them unless there is a huge outcry not do so.

In that case if you're going to reinstate what you've accidently left out, then Helipad B should start with 12 neutral armies.

[oaktown]

8. (This one will be controversial.) Create a new feature: the Anti Aircraft gun. Turn the tower into an AA battery (since the tower seems kinda useless anyway) which would be capable of knocking out the paratroopers once and for all. It would have to be a pretty costly enterprise - big starting neutral value, killer neutral, etc. - but it would give assassin and terminator games a reason for existence.

oaktown, can you clarify what you mean by "the tower"? please.

That would be the territory called "Tower" in at the airport... it starts with a neutral of 2, and it doesn't lead anywhere, so other than upping your army count a bit it doesn't lend anything to the play of the game.

In addition to putting the sticky back on this topic I have created a shadow topic in the Main Foundry... hope it gets you some more attention.

Seamusk's idea of allowing the Tower to "see" other territories is interesting... it could only be accomplished by giving it one-way attack powers, which would be way too powerful... or can bombard see through the fog? Seems to me it can't, but I may be wrong. It's off-topic, but "vision" could be a fun XML addition.

[gimil]

8. (This one will be controversial.) Create a new feature: the Anti Aircraft gun. Turn the tower into an AA battery (since the tower seems kinda useless anyway) which would be capable of knocking out the paratroopers once and for all. It would have to be a pretty costly enterprise - big starting neutral value, killer neutral, etc. - but it would give assassin and terminator games a reason for existence.

oaktown, can you clarify what you mean by "the tower"? please.

That would be the territory called "Tower" in at the airport... it starts with a neutral of 2, and it doesn't lead anywhere, so other than upping your army count a bit it doesn't lend anything to the play of the game.

In addition to putting the sticky back on this topic I have created a shadow topic in the Main Foundry... hope it gets you some more attention.

Seamusk's idea of allowing the Tower to "see" other territories is interesting... it could only be accomplished by giving it one-way attack powers, which would be way too powerful... or can bombard see through the fog? Seems to me it can't, but I may be wrong. It's off-topic, but "vision" could be a fun XML addition.

Bombardment terrs can see through the fog.

[gimil]

1. Lower the paratrooper bonus. In a two player game the first player is looking at a bonus of 8 in the first round and 24 in just the second round of the game, which is more than enough to deny the second player of a bonus. This should be less of a problem in larger games, but even in four player games you get a +12 in your second round and can get a leg up on everybody else. Dropping the bonus to +1 for each - the paratroopers and the spaces that follow - would limit the first bonus to +4, making it harder to grab all of the following bonuses, and the +12 in the second round probably wouldn't be quite enough to eliminate all of the opponents bonuses. This is a start, but might not go as far as we'd like it to.

On this point my suggestion was to either:

1. remove the paratroops bonus and reduce the following bonuses to +1 rather than +2. Leave neutrals as they where. This should be enought to slow a game to the point where all players have a chance to get settled in the game.

or

2. Change the para troops bonus and those that follow to autodeploy. This would mean that you cant bulk up for easy kills. But oaktown pointed out that it would be a bitch in anything other than unlim fort. (however I dont see it as that big a problem)

I think either of the three options above (my two and oaktowns one) would be a good change.

[gimil]

Make the helipads killer neutrals. I tried slogging my way up the bridge and the cable car, and it was a drag... you automatically leave an army behind each time you move ahead

Oaktown also forgot to mention that he went the wrong way using the cable car, twice!

[oaktown]

Make the helipads killer neutrals. I tried slogging my way up the bridge and the cable car, and it was a drag... you automatically leave an army behind each time you move ahead

Oaktown also forgot to mention that he went the wrong way using the cable car, twice!

thanks for that, gimil... for being the gameplay CA, I am the king of careless mistakes.

[cairnswk]

8. (This one will be controversial.) Create a new feature: the Anti Aircraft gun. Turn the tower into an AA battery (since the tower seems kinda useless anyway) which would be capable of knocking out the paratroopers once and for all. It would have to be a pretty costly enterprise - big starting neutral value, killer neutral, etc. - but it would give assassin and terminator games a reason for existence.

oaktown, can you clarify what you mean by "the tower"? please.

That would be the territory called "Tower" in at the airport... it starts with a neutral of 2, and it doesn't lead anywhere, so other than upping your army count a bit it doesn't lend anything to the play of the game.

In addition to putting the sticky back on this topic I have created a shadow topic in the Main Foundry... hope it gets you some more attention.

Seamusk's idea of allowing the Tower to "see" other territories is interesting... it could only be accomplished by giving it one-way attack powers, which would be way too powerful... or can bombard see through the fog? Seems to me it can't, but I may be wrong. It's off-topic, but "vision" could be a fun XML addition.

Oh that tower! Silly me of course.
The tower was put in simply as the control tower for the airport. I wouldn't be in favour of giving it any sort of "seeing powers" or "attack powers"
I do however agree with the idea of a tert having those powers as an xml feature. Cool idea really, that would really open up other maps

[cairnswk]

Make the helipads killer neutrals. I tried slogging my way up the bridge and the cable car, and it was a drag... you automatically leave an army behind each time you move ahead

Oaktown also forgot to mention that he went the wrong way using the cable car, twice!

thanks for that, gimil... for being the gameplay CA, I am the king of careless mistakes.

nah! that's my title and you're not having it

[cairnswk]

very interesting map - plays well. Dont understand the problem.....lots of interesting tactics ........enjoyed it.....

Clanlord Carl. sorry there is some problems with 1,2, 3 and 4 player games. and I have some starting positions that need re-instating.
Thanks for feedback, greatly appreciated.

[MOBAJOBG]

I would certainly play games on this map after the urgently required modification because I really want to know whether it's as epic in scale and engaging as Waterloo.

[BikerAngel]

Personally I like it! might be better with doubles or more people but one on one it takes thinking and not just killing!

[Shatners Bassoon]

Love this map,have only played it with 4 players so far and don't really see any problems but i can understand that playing a 1v1 could be pretty problematic for the second player to start.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

Personally I like it! might be better with doubles or more people but one on one it takes thinking and not just killing!

1v1 doesn't require any thought at all (after the realisation of the only strategy that works)


I like all of oaktown's suggestions except for the one about being about to target the initial parachute drops (I really like the uniqueness of not being able to be killed)

[TomLocke]

First, I love this map.

Second, in regards to lack of 1v1 strategy, there are plenty of maps that lack 1v1 strategy, such as Doodle Earth. Maybe the bonuses may need to be lowered, but that'd certainly be an easy fix.

Third, I am playing a doubles game on the map, and it looks as if it will be quite fair...

[cairnswk]

Personally I like it! might be better with doubles or more people but one on one it takes thinking and not just killing!

1v1 doesn't require any thought at all (after the realisation of the only strategy that works)


I like all of oaktown's suggestions except for the one about being about to target the initial parachute drops (I really like the uniqueness of not being able to be killed)

OK...lets crunch some numbers here.

Let's assume (for argument sake) that game is 1vs1...
each player has received 4 para-starting positions each, and after the 1st round they have both progressed to the x[2] positions and nothing else.
player 1 -> will receive 24 bonus points + 2 to enable him to bust through 1 x (6) checkpoint which he has an attrition rate of 9 on, leaving him 16 numbers to bust through pvt whoever (2) and AA(6), after which he moves onto AA with 7 armies.

that leaves him enough to have a bombardment at player 2 on at least 7 of 8 positions, almost wiping player 2 out of the bonus stakes. This is relatively consistent with my observations of 2 player games that have started.
Although i am seeing also that some 2 player games are getting through to 9 or 10 rounds before a winner is clear.

Anyway, below is a possible solution based on what oaktown has proposed (without losing the helipad but using the killer neutrals to respawn the helipad to a neutral after a players turn)

Version 25.
1. starting positions +1 bonus
2. checkpoints start with 3 neutrals
3. AA, AB, AC start with 24 neutrals
4. helipads start with 18 neutrals each (although i am thinking this may need to be higher to get players to use the cable cars) - i have only seen one game progress to using the cable car successfully yet.
5. wache aus and wache in start with 6 neutrals each

[cairnswk]

Question from V25 above....
Is the helipad neutral start count and respawn high enough? I am kind of thinking it should be possibly 24, afterall the cable cars are going to take at least 14 to conquer.

[Herakilla]

the only reason you will use either the cable cars or the heli pads is either to connect your armies for fortifications or if you get kicked out of the airport or castle by another player

ive played 3 or 4 games 1v1 and it is incredibly fair especially because i play freestyle. but so far only once have i taken the cable cars and that was because i didnt realise there was a helipad in the castle

[gimil]

24 is far to high for the guns. It pretty much means there not worth taking. It jsut means you waste more troops breaking it for the sake of taking out a few small bonuses. I thik maybe a 7 or 8 would do it, maybe even a 6.

[cairnswk]

the only reason you will use either the cable cars or the heli pads is either to connect your armies for fortifications or if you get kicked out of the airport or castle by another player

ive played 3 or 4 games 1v1 and it is incredibly fair especially because i play freestyle. but so far only once have i taken the cable cars and that was because i didnt realise there was a helipad in the castle

U huh! thanks for that feedback Herakilla....that was part of my original thinking/reasoning...that neither helipad nor cable cars would be used if there was starters in the castle.

[cairnswk]

24 is far to high for the guns. It pretty much means there not worth taking. It jsut means you waste more troops breaking it for the sake of taking out a few small bonuses. I thik maybe a 7 or 8 would do it, maybe even a 6.

Mmmm, i'm thinking that 6 would not be enough. How about 9. Especially if the checkpoints are now only 3.

[gimil]

24 is far to high for the guns. It pretty much means there not worth taking. It jsut means you waste more troops breaking it for the sake of taking out a few small bonuses. I thik maybe a 7 or 8 would do it, maybe even a 6.

Mmmm, i'm thinking that 6 would not be enough. How about 9. Especially if the checkpoints are now only 3.

9 should do it, but 24 is far far to much. what would be the point in breaking a 24 to break a bunch of +1 bonuses? It would be easier to use those troops to defence.

[pamoa]

Excellent map, linear gameplay 1vs1.
V25 seems much more equilibrated. Very good the troops in the castle!

Suggestion:
remove helipad A so cable car became useful and also bus navette. It will make the game last much more but will give space for some come back. And there will be only one type of connections between the 3 main area of the game.

[cairnswk]

9 should do it, but 24 is far far to much. what would be the point in breaking a 24 to break a bunch of +1 bonuses? It would be easier to use those troops to defence.

Thanks gimil....

Latest advance for the guns AA etec....9 neutral starters in Version 26 below.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

A few points with the current setup re 1v1:

1) Only once have I failed to capture all 8 extra +2 territories.

2) I have never bothered attacking through a checkpoint - attacking from the town means there are 2 neutrals and 1 less territory in the way to the guns. Which makes the left side of the town so much more important than the right (something I haven't seen mentioned)

3) The helipads / cable cars are irrelevant (and it won't matter how many neutrals there are there at all unless this is addressed) because there is no reason to have the airport or the castle except to win the game. (Even if you stick 500 in the way all that happens is it takes a little longer - I have only bothered going into the castle when I am getting 40+ per turn)


IF all the (24) starting places get +1 and start with 3, then the following happens:

You get 8 to deploy. Assuming average dice, I would deploy 1,1,1,5, meaning that on average I will get a little over 3 of the extra territories (but most importantly 50% that I get one next to a checkpoint.

On turn 2, I'll get 11 to deploy, so my 13 (approx) armies need to be able (on average) to attack the AA guns but be able to do little thereafter.
13v3,2,7 is 53%, so I suggest the AA guns start with 7 or 8 (and have no bonuses)


I still think the ariport/town/castle bonuses also need to be upped. Even with the parachutes being worth +1, in 1v1 they are collectively worth +12; currently +3or4 from each of the airport/town is too little.