Das Schloß [QUENCHED #2]

[DiM]

not really. if you do that then you'll cause confusion and lots of "bug" reports.
people see in the legend it's +1 for 2 terits and they'll expect +2 for 4 terits unless you clearly state in the legend +1 for 2,3,4 terits and so on.
and i doubt there's enough space to fit all hat.

I don't really see the difference between my suggestion and your explaination of overriding for 3?


Unless you override it like I explained, won't you get +2 for holding three territories. And, +6 for holding four territories?

if any 2 give +1 then in theory for holding 3 you get +3.

let's say you have A B and C and any pair gives +1

you have a+b; b+c; and c+a. so a total of +3

what the overides do is take out a terit when it is a part of a bonus.

so let's say you have a b and c.
you get +1 for a+b and a and b are taken out of the discussion since they already contributed to a bonus.
nex pair is b+c but since b is out you get nothing.
and the last is c+a but since a is also out you get nothing.

however if you have 4 terits you can form 6 total pairs and 2 of them are unique pairs (no terit is used on more than one bonus) so for 4 terits you can get +2.

this brings us to my concern for the 5 terit bonus. why bother getting 5 terits for +2 when you can get the same +2 with only 2 terits.

and if overides are coded and you don't get +2 for 4 terits then this should be explained in the legend since people will expect +2 for 4 terits when they see +1 for 2


i hope i made sense cause i'm very tired.

[edbeard]

Ok. At first I thought you were saying overrides wouldn't be necessary. But, really you were just saying I had too many overrides for what Cairnswk wanted for the bonuses.


Yea definitely some clarification needs to be done or some changes to the bonus system.

[cairnswk]

OK...here is Version 13...the start of re-arrangements to place the bonus insrtuctions in place.

I adjusted some bonuses for the town...thanks Dim and edbeard fo that lesson in logic above...i'll apply this method now i understand it. Meanwhile some discussion might be appropriate for the new numbers of you would.

[Gozar]

What if under of "Additional Minor Bonuses" it read "+1 at 2, +3 at 5;+7 at 9"

This could decrease people wondering "I have 4, shouldn't I be getting +2 now?".....unless they should be...then nevermind me.

[oaktown]

damn it, Cairsnwk, you and your complicated maps are going to be the death of me!

Artillery batteries "remove" minus bonus from checkpoints - could you clarify what remove means in the legend? Holding one or more (not sure if it's one or all three) negates the checkpoint bonus?

In the area around the artillery it's hard to make out what attacks what... in some places a single line looks like an attackable border, while in other places it doesn't. For instance, Pvt. Gus looks like it has an open door in Inn, suggesting that the rest of the lines - such as to Banhof - is not an attackable border. Or is that not a door but just where the army circles covers the border?

I can see playing games on this map taking months to finish... should be fun.

[cairnswk]

damn it, Cairsnwk, you and your complicated maps are going to be the death of me!

Nah! oaktown. This one is easy. As long as you advance forward to the two start bonuses, you're guaranteed to get +4 each round on top of what the other bonuses give for each round. It's a cinche! Because everyone should get 7 each round until they start attacking each other, then it'll build from there.

Artillery batteries "remove" minus bonus from checkpoints - could you clarify what remove means in the legend? Holding one or more (not sure if it's one or all three) negates the checkpoint bonus?

Well, if you're the last one through your checkpoint (one per two players) then you keep losing -1 bonus point each round from your total. So you have to conquer the Artillery Battery and wipe out (bombard) your own army on the checkpoint to stop that -1 bonus from continuing to be in force each round.

In the area around the artillery it's hard to make out what attacks what... in some places a single line looks like an attackable border, while in other places it doesn't. For instance, Pvt. Gus looks like it has an open door in Inn, suggesting that the rest of the lines - such as to Banhof - is not an attackable border. Or is that not a door but just where the army circles covers the border?

yes it isn't very clear. so i'll fix that next version.

I can see playing games on this map taking months to finish... should be fun.

I don't think it will take months. players will learn the easy way to win this map.

[edbeard]

instead of having one row of up-cars and another row of down-cars why not have a mix and mash. One half of each row is up and the other is down. You'd probably have to alter the graphics a bit, but this makes it possible for someone to get to the castle without having to hold the southern part of the map.


I'd like to see bonuses in the castle, and bigger than the ones in other places. this would encourage going to the castle in the middle of the game instead of trying to obliterate your opponent everywhere else and save the neutral taking for later. At the moment I feel like taking the castle will only be an afterthought. It might be a good idea to put back starting positions over there

[cairnswk]

It might be a good idea to put back starting positions over there

What do you mean by this edbeard sorry.

[edbeard]

in a very early version (I think it was very early anyway). well at some point, you had some starting positions in the castle. I think it'd be a good idea to figure out how to get 8 starting spots in the castle so it's not an afterthought in the player's minds. at the moment, I think players will not worry about the castle until their opponents are all but dead.

[cairnswk]

in a very early version (I think it was very early anyway). well at some point, you had some starting positions in the castle. I think it'd be a good idea to figure out how to get 8 starting spots in the castle so it's not an afterthought in the player's minds. at the moment, I think players will not worry about the castle until their opponents are all but dead.

To put 8 starting positions in the castle would make it too easy don't you think. I know i swapped the start positions from the castle to the airport, but i would have to add several terts to the castle to make it worth the battle.
OrI could add one big room like in the storyline and put everyone in the room as a starting point. What do think about that idea?

[edbeard]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a big room. All I know is that if no one starts in the castle, it seems very doubtful people will advance there unless all their opponents are very weak to the point where victory is in their grasp.

[cairnswk]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a big room. All I know is that if no one starts in the castle, it seems very doubtful people will advance there unless all their opponents are very weak to the point where victory is in their grasp.

R U not familiar with Where Eagles Dare? war movie

[edbeard]

I am not. I will add it to my long netflix queue though.

[cairnswk]

I am not. I will add it to my long netflix queue though.

In ther original storyline, a double-edged spy had already been captured and was being held in Das Schloss by the German High Command.
The english mission was to paratroop in (start zone) and work their way through to town by parading as officers and get up to the castle via cable car to rescue the traitor, then make their way down to the airport and escape via the aircraft.
The traitor was being interrogated in a large room in the castle.

Thus my suggestion of having everyone start in that large room in the castle if there is to be a starting position in the castle.

[cairnswk]

Version 14

Changes:
1. cable cars reduced to 5 each way and two-by-two attack method simplified with "jump cars" in the middle (in line with original story)
2. der Stadt re-arranged and expanded to allow better tert sighting and differentiation
3. castle bonus added.

[Gozar]

I think with the new castle bonus there is enough incentive for an enterprising player to go there. Not only do you need it to win the game, but it is held relatively easily, with only 2 territories for a border, for a nice bonus....

Maybe too easily held, since that 2 border is actually 1 as you changed the cars. Perhaps go with edbeard's suggestion and have an up and down car on each line?


EDIT: With 12 territories in the castle, would it be +16 to hold it?

[edbeard]

hmm. I think it's harder to get to the castle now with 5 cars needed. Definitely interesting though.

I'll have to think about this for a while as to whether it's good or not.

[cairnswk]

Maybe too easily held, since that 2 border is actually 1 as you changed the cars. Perhaps go with edbeard's suggestion and have an up and down car on each line?

Mmmm, Gozar, I'm not in favour of having two ways on each up and down line. It would make it even more easier to reach the final objective now that the castle has a good bonus.

I think also that 16 is too much for the bonus, but I'd be willing to change it to 13.

[cairnswk]

hmm. I think it's harder to get to the castle now with 5 cars needed. Definitely interesting though.

I'll have to think about this for a while as to whether it's good or not.

Well i thought that since the castle had a bigger bonus, it deserved a hard route down.

Unfortunately i can't make a game where some players are the good guys and some players are the germans, which would be ideal of course.

However, if you really want, i am willing to change the attack method on the cable cars back to the two way arrows as i had it before, but with less cars to conquer.

Looking forward to your thoughts!

[Gozar]

Yes to better access to the castle.

I think you should take out the +5 for 6 on the castle. If you take all the territories in the castle, you will get +4 from territories and +6 from holding the objectives. +10 is enough for only having to defend two territories wouldn't you agree?

[cairnswk]

Yes to better access to the castle.

I think you should take out the +5 for 6 on the castle. If you take all the territories in the castle, you will get +4 from territories and +6 from holding the objectives. +10 is enough for only having to defend two territories wouldn't you agree?

Very good idea! Agreed.

[edbeard]

well you have to take over at least 8 territories just to own one castle territory at the moment. It seems like a player would be wasting their time doing that.

[Gozar]

well you have to take over at least 8 territories just to own one castle territory at the moment. It seems like a player would be wasting their time doing that.

I see the castle as critically important to the whole game.

It is isolated, but that just makes it easier to defend. It also houses two of the four objectives that you need to win the map. As long as you hold the castle, no one else can win. Then you just need to land two stacks on the other two places and...

I think the castle will be hotly contested real estate, and I could see many games being a race for the castle.

[edbeard]

going for the castle will be the death of many players. Whilst they are going for the castle, other players will be collecting bonuses and unless you leave an extra army on each car (and those other territories), they'll have an easier time getting to the castle than you.

having to kill EIGHT territories (at the least I might add) just to get to Kontrol 2 isn't a smart strategy. once you get there you have to kill at least 4 more territories just to get a bonus.


having players start out in the castle would be much better.

[cairnswk]

well you have to take over at least 8 territories just to own one castle territory at the moment. It seems like a player would be wasting their time doing that.

I see the castle as critically important to the whole game.

It is isolated, but that just makes it easier to defend. It also houses two of the four objectives that you need to win the map. As long as you hold the castle, no one else can win. Then you just need to land two stacks on the other two places and...

I think the castle will be hotly contested real estate, and I could see many games being a race for the castle.

going for the castle will be the death of many players. Whilst they are going for the castle, other players will be collecting bonuses and unless you leave an extra army on each car (and those other territories), they'll have an easier time getting to the castle than you.

having to kill EIGHT territories (at the least I might add) just to get to Kontrol 2 isn't a smart strategy. once you get there you have to kill at least 4 more territories just to get a bonus.


having players start out in the castle would be much better.

Well here is Version 15 gentlemen....

Changes:
1. As requested, start terts now on the castel after some major re-configurations.
2. Helipads added as alternative routes between the areas
3. Bonus on castle changed to non-partial bonus as requested
4. Title shook and moved.
Does this qualify for better gameplay?