Iraq and Afghanistan

[Caleb the Cruel]

Today being the 5th anniversary of the 9-11 attacks, I found it somewhat appropriate to make a new thread about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how they relate to one another.

[wcaclimbing]

how about an "i dont really care about who is fighting who" option

[Caleb the Cruel]

how about an "i dont really care about who is fighting who" option

that would be the last option

[Sammy gags]

theres always gotta be a war somewhere, luckily this is a small war where the enemy is 2 weak 2 stand up 2 us & fight

[gavin_sidhu]

I think the war with Iraq created more terrorists than it destroyed. America should be fighting Iran instead.

[ZeoEmpire]

I think the war with Iraq created more terrorists than it destroyed. America should be fighting Iran instead.

no we need Iran for WW3

[heavycola]

Today being the 5th anniversary of the 9-11 attacks, I found it somewhat appropriate to make a new thread about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how they relate to one another.

Didn;t dubya get up yesterday and admit that saddam had nothing to do with 9/11? Dubya on the other hand has caused a recruitment drive for al-Qaeda that Osama could only dream of.

[vtmarik]

Well, you know, the war was based on lies, but we're there now.

I think that we should get the job done as quickly as possible, and then we should start drawing down our troops to sort of gently put the responsibility of protection onto the Iraqi people themselves.

A total pullout isn't feasible, but a gradual drawing down of troops would be the best solution. Stop spending the money on recruitment drives and start spending it on training the home guard, as it were.

[Backglass]

Didn;t dubya get up yesterday and admit that saddam had nothing to do with 9/11? Dubya on the other hand has caused a recruitment drive for al-Qaeda that Osama could only dream of.

Nobody has ever said that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11...because he didnt. Besides...according to "W" we arent in Iraq for 9/11. We are there to eliminate his weapons of mass destruction and save the Iraqy people. That was the reason given on day 1.

Only later did it "morph" into a war on terror...around the same time they figured out there were no weapons of mass destruction. (20 year old expired gas shells dont count in my book).

...and 5-years later the person responsible, Osama Bin Laden, remains free and laughing his ass off.

This should piss you off.

[jay_a2j]

Didn;t dubya get up yesterday and admit that saddam had nothing to do with 9/11? Dubya on the other hand has caused a recruitment drive for al-Qaeda that Osama could only dream of.

Nobody has ever said that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11...because he didnt. Besides...according to "W" we arent in Iraq for 9/11. We are there to eliminate his weapons of mass destruction and save the Iraqy people. That was the reason given on day 1.

Only later did it "morph" into a war on terror...around the same time they figured out there were no weapons of mass destruction. (20 year old expired gas shells dont count in my book).

...and 5-years later the person responsible, Osama Bin Laden, remains free and laughing his ass off.

This should piss you off.

You do realize that after the 1994 bombing of the WTC Clinton had several oppertunities to arrest Bin Laden? But he didn't. There is PLENTY of blame to go around so stop projecting it all on Bush!

[DIRESTRAITS]

Didn;t dubya get up yesterday and admit that saddam had nothing to do with 9/11? Dubya on the other hand has caused a recruitment drive for al-Qaeda that Osama could only dream of.

Nobody has ever said that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11...because he didnt. Besides...according to "W" we arent in Iraq for 9/11. We are there to eliminate his weapons of mass destruction and save the Iraqy people. That was the reason given on day 1.

Only later did it "morph" into a war on terror...around the same time they figured out there were no weapons of mass destruction. (20 year old expired gas shells dont count in my book).

...and 5-years later the person responsible, Osama Bin Laden, remains free and laughing his ass off.

This should piss you off.

Just because we didnt get attacked by Iraq doesn't mean they wouldn't have. If we just waited to be attacked before we did anything, There would have been more attacks.

[vtmarik]

You do realize that after the 1994 bombing of the WTC Clinton had several oppertunities to arrest Bin Laden? But he didn't. There is PLENTY of blame to go around so stop projecting it all on Bush!

Well, that may be true, but didn't Bush say at the outset that Osama was the primary target, and then a year later say that his capture wasn't a priority?

I mean, Clinton could've captured him, but they had little to no evidence. Arresting someone without evidence is a waste of time and money. Besides, we were still paying Osama for shooting down drug trafficker's planes in our War on Drugs that Reagan/Bush started. So, yeah, it's all Clinton's fault. Sure.

[Pacifist]

Someone has voted completely illogically in this vote, I mean who supports a war based on lies, but opposes a war with a slight piece of moral justification?

I am just confused!!

[heavycola]

Didn;t dubya get up yesterday and admit that saddam had nothing to do with 9/11? Dubya on the other hand has caused a recruitment drive for al-Qaeda that Osama could only dream of.

Nobody has ever said that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11...because he didnt. Besides...according to "W" we arent in Iraq for 9/11. We are there to eliminate his weapons of mass destruction and save the Iraqy people. That was the reason given on day 1.

Only later did it "morph" into a war on terror...around the same time they figured out there were no weapons of mass destruction. (20 year old expired gas shells dont count in my book).

...and 5-years later the person responsible, Osama Bin Laden, remains free and laughing his ass off.

This should piss you off.

You do realize that after the 1994 bombing of the WTC Clinton had several oppertunities to arrest Bin Laden? But he didn't. There is PLENTY of blame to go around so stop projecting it all on Bush!

yeah! Because he KNEW! he knew that if he left osama alone he would eventually make the republicans look bad! or maybe he was just too busy being sucked off by Monica Lewinsky! Lewinsky? Sounds like a commie name to me! Thank gawwwd for bush! Jesus would have invaded iraq! if Gore hadda won we'd all be speaking french by now! Rarrghhgrgararaarraaaa (fade out to flag-waving moron choking on his own patriotic indignation)

[jay_a2j]

^ ya gotta love (or loath) the anti-American Commies who would love nothing more than see this country destroyed. LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT buddy!

[vtmarik]

^ ya gotta love (or loath) the anti-American Commies who would love nothing more than see this country destroyed. LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT buddy!

Now that's a funny joke...

You are joking right?



Right?

[heavycola]

Jay your government thanks you. We need more upstanding, bible-thumping, unblinkingly obedient citizens to suck up our bullshit and root out this evil menace. Right now there are millions of pinko commie bastards all over our country sitting and dreeeeeaming about its destruction. They will stop at nothing - hoovering up welfare cheques, electing presidents with a taste for fellatio, OPENLY QUESTIONING the policies of our jesus-sanctioned administration - and neither should we. Liberalism is an anti-American disease, as in fact is anything we tell you to disagree with. Now go back to sleep, Jay. Your government is in control.

[Backglass]

Unfortunatly, many Americans (and Jay it seems) believe that questioning the government or holding them to their word is somehow anti-american, when actually it is the MOST patriotic thing you could do.

This countries founding fathers werent "lock step, follow the crowd" kinda guys, and would be shocked at the "agree with the government or get out" mentality that is so prevalent today (not to mention the trashing of the constitution).

And they certainly didnt resort to grade-school name calling when backed into a corner.

[jay_a2j]

Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Caleb the Cruel]

Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

is anybody too lazy to read that right now besides me? i'm tired.

[Backglass]

Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the...blah blah blah blah. .

That is meaningless to all but those in your cult. More fairy tales.

[vtmarik]

Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age
[cut for time]

And what relevance does this have to the current conversation?

[jay_a2j]

Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sorry, wrong thread.

[vtmarik]

Ah, ok, no problem...

*fake admonishment* Don't ever do it again!

[owheelj]

I voted for the other option.

I strongly believe that going to war in both places was a mistake, and indeed, immoral. However I also struggle very hard in coming up with a solution to the situation now. We can't change the past and now that we are at war in those places I feel that due the current situation, were the US and coalition of the killing forces to pull out that would have an enourmasly negative effect on both countries. At the same time, it is clear that the current plan is not working and we need to try something else. Perhaps the solution is more troops? Perhaps more effort needs to be spent on rebuilding, health and education?

It's a very hard to see a solution.