WWII: Battle of Gazala [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

sorry cairns (and qwert, i think), but i gotta give a big booooooo on the look of the axis flags.
(maybe i'm just been a sore loser, but i think they just throw the colour blances right out)

asl80...i agree...and while i think the other colouring is better...i can't deny the demeocratic process which i chose to throw up.

[cairnswk]

cairns looking great!

one thing that I think might be important

on the small map especially, I'm having a hard time distinguishing the colour of the 3rd brigade and the 22nd

maybe make the 22nd mortar yellow?

I think this gives us four very distinguishable colours.


right now when I look at Panzer C and D the missiles there look very similar

thanks edbeard, i'll have a look at that later in next update.

[cairnswk]

Coleman, i beleive this poll can come down, and can you check the status of other polls on Waterloo and Gazala, as i think they might be finished also. Thanks

[cairnswk]

Version 18

I've changed all the colours...you can see which ones....i don't like this but i tried to work the colours in with tert flags....

What does everyone think of this change.

[Coleman]

Which German Panzerarmee flags do you prefer?

A. V15 - Cairns' version of Afrika Corps in green, black and white variations - 22% [ 2 ]
B. V16 - Real Panzerarmee flags - 77% [ 7 ]
C. Other - please explain - 0% [ 0 ]

Total Votes : 9

[edbeard]

this is a relatively useless I like the new changes post

[onbekende]

Code: Select all

Bonus   Continent
------+---------------
7       Rommel
7       Panzerarmee
6       Italians
7       Gazala Line
3       The Cauldron
7       British
5       S. Afrikans
3       Indians
1       Free French
5       Tubruk
5       Towns

(darn clicking submit before being done)

nice lookin once again!

CA (Cauldron is bolded, others not)
Panzerarmee D misses its flag


rest I don't see problem

[cairnswk]

this is a relatively useless I like the new changes post

why do you think it is useless...edbeard?

[edbeard]

this is a relatively useless I like the new changes post

why do you think it is useless...edbeard?

it doesn't really add to the development like feedback does.

there's just too many. 'I like it' posts in the foundry. pet peeve I guess.

useless was a bad word since you need to know if people like what you did. sorry.

[cairnswk]

this is a relatively useless I like the new changes post

why do you think it is useless...edbeard?

it doesn't really add to the development like feedback does.

there's just too many. 'I like it' posts in the foundry. pet peeve I guess.

useless was a bad word since you need to know if people like what you did. sorry.

No need to be sorry, saying you like it is a good start to indicate that you like it and that is what counts in your eyes....so far feedback from you and onbekende indicate that the new changes might stick!

[cairnswk]

Code: Select all

Bonus   Continent
------+---------------
7       Rommel
7       Panzerarmee
6       Italians
7       Gazala Line
3       The Cauldron
7       British
5       S. Afrikans
3       Indians
1       Free French
5       Tubruk
5       Towns

(darn clicking submit before being done)

nice lookin once again!

CA (Cauldron is bolded, others not)
Panzerarmee D misses its flag


rest I don't see problem

Small issues fixed next version...

Bonuses:
1. would like to leave the british bonus at 8, b/c their continent is split.
2. i think b/c rommel has 12 tanks and panzerarmee has 8, rommel can have 1 more bonus than other.
3. not sure about towns, but will leave as is for now, maybe some other comments on this one. i think 6 is good.

[cairnswk]

Version 19

Small changes as from above.

[yeti_c]

Hey Cairns,

Loving the new Tank Tracks - that makes the map so much more easy to read...

Couple of GFX points.
a) 21st Panzers D is missing his flag
b) On the Large map "Rommel" on the map looks like "Roromel" unless I get iin close - I think it's because of an underlying tank track.
c) The allied "routes" bit looks too different from what they are on the map - the allied dirt track route is too big!
d) The difference in the 2 mine fields graphics is too tiny to tell them apart easily.

Couple of Gameplay points.
a) The Tanks - most of them can't actually attack anything except their movement until they're half way round the map... will they be used?
b) Can the Allies attack the tanks? Or only Bombard them? - If they can attack the tank - can they then chain back down the tank line - or is that 1 way only?

C.

[cairnswk]

Hey Cairns,

Loving the new Tank Tracks - that makes the map so much more easy to read...

Couple of GFX points.
a) 21st Panzers D is missing his flag
b) On the Large map "Rommel" on the map looks like "Roromel" unless I get iin close - I think it's because of an underlying tank track.
c) The allied "routes" bit looks too different from what they are on the map - the allied dirt track route is too big!
d) The difference in the 2 mine fields graphics is too tiny to tell them apart easily.

Couple of Gameplay points.
a) The Tanks - most of them can't actually attack anything except their movement until they're half way round the map... will they be used?
b) Can the Allies attack the tanks? Or only Bombard them? - If they can attack the tank - can they then chain back down the tank line - or is that 1 way only?

C.

C. You got the wrong map in your post....the current version is V19, as above, and I was looking for comments on the new glow around the terts in each continent...so can you give me your opinion on that please.

GFX points:
a. yes, that was fixed in V19
b. can do...i'll move it sideways right prob
c. can do
d. will alter

Gamplay:
a. well they have...because part opf the winning condition will be rommel, panserarmee and all tanks plus tobruk
c. moving on tank lines the allies can only bombard the tanks to stop them. or neutralise them...and then if the allies conquer italian 101 mot div and attack forward from there, or rotonda segnali and attack forward from there.

the whole essence of this battle is that rommel was successful in moving his tanks past those indian divisions and through the gazala line of mines. the italians attack from the west and made him more successful. so if the allies or whoever starts there is to reverse all that, then they have to attack back through the gazala mine lines and rear up into rommels' tanks. Does that make sense?

[asl80]

A Random Collection of Suggestions and Comments:

* The new glows are a nice little touch cairns.
I like that the feel of the map now looks a lot "dustier" than the older versions, not as bright as in the one posted in yeti's.

* just a bit of support: i like the advance movements for the tanks.
However, i'd like to know a little more about the historical precedence for the airports, which could go along way to negating the use of the other features of the gameplay - like just dropping in at the top of the tank line, (or similarly the allied position)

* A quick repeat on the boooooo for the red-outlined flags, but a new request that something else is used in the legend, as they don't seem essntial there, i.e. the explanations in the bottom left hand corner.

* Why is the italian 2/10 cut off from the rest of the italian divisions?

* In the bottom legend i'd like to see the mortar info pic lose its white background.

* Tobruk/Gazalla fluro green glow - i detest fluro colours, and am considering making an official complaint, i'm just not sure who to yet. (it's not that bad - if there was another possibility that would be nice)

* The red color of the panzaremme looks good in the legend (i.e. matchs well - with the black of rommel too), but on the field the red in the tanks looks a little odd, has the appereance of being to bright red.
The tanks in yeti's post look cleaner. But in the new i've started to realise that the basic circles representing the tank tracks look a little to symbolic and simple.

* You mentioned in the last post that tobruk would be a win objective, how so, you'll have to put this in the legend.

* i'd love to see a neutral layout that sets the start of play up as the taking of sides (and a simliar set up for the other maps in the trilogy if they are to come ... are they {ahh hmmm ... desert rats? ...)
[sometimes this happens on mibi's d-day, but its more a matter of luck then a "suggestive" feature of the game-play-map-setup.]

** Although, if you wanted the sides to be taken like this, i would imagine that there would have to be some smaller bonus opportunites for the axis team to balance with the small defendable options for the allies - i.e. cauldron, french s.africans.

* Graphics of the tank arrows are nice. - except for P.Z. E. at the end.
The large map update in the works?

Going well Cairns, good work.

[edbeard]

could you go into your reasoning behind the neutrals again?

I just look at the map and see that those mortars can only bombard tanks that start out as neutral.

maybe this is part of your plan? the mortars won't have anything special to do unless someone starts taking tanks.

[cairnswk]

could you go into your reasoning behind the neutrals again?

I just look at the map and see that those mortars can only bombard tanks that start out as neutral.

maybe this is part of your plan? the mortars won't have anything special to do unless someone starts taking tanks.

Yes edbeard...the tank positions as noted start as neutral (1) so that they convey the idea of forward movement...of course the mortars won't be able to attack until the tanks take their target positions, and of course if anyone playing has any nouse they will build up a considerable tank reserve before advancing. Some players will have to take the tank positions and advance forward because they can't go back, because holding all those tank positions it part of the overall final objective.

[edbeard]

Yes edbeard...the tank positions as noted start as neutral (1) so that they convey the idea of forward movement...of course the mortars won't be able to attack until the tanks take their target positions, and of course if anyone playing has any nouse they will build up a considerable tank reserve before advancing. Some players will have to take the tank positions and advance forward because they can't go back, because holding all those tank positions it part of the overall final objective.

oh ok. I thought it'd be 3 neutrals. 1 is good though. it makes the tanks a viable option.


though...this final objective you're talking about...do you mean the 'take all' that you've put on the map? We've had this conversation before (I'm sure you remember), where as long as other players are eliminated the game ends. So, is there another objective you're putting on the map?

[cairnswk]

Version 20

Well....after a poll and re-axamination of this map, i have decided to revert the colours on this back to v16/17....

1. remove all the glow around the terts, it makes the map look too much like a Christmas Tree.
2. Rommel and Panzerarmee flags have had the red removed, and replaced by the cllour on the legend, as are the tanks the same as the legend colour.

I like these legend colours better now....the red was too mich for everything else, and the map now looks like it has some colour co-ordination, rather than eveything having that bright red tinge.

3. Some paths have been latered and it is now possible to attack/border all along the Gazala line.


I prefer this map to have bland look about it....to go with the colour of the desert that was the background.

[edbeard]

I assume the Free French territory is also part of the Cauldron bonus area.

I ask only because with the mine-field lines there, it makes it appear that way. So, if it's not then that's a problem (at least from my perspective).



edit:

also, are you going to change the mortar back to yellow like you had in the previous update?

[cairnswk]

I assume the Free French territory is also part of the Cauldron bonus area.

I ask only because with the mine-field lines there, it makes it appear that way. So, if it's not then that's a problem (at least from my perspective).



edit:

also, are you going to change the mortar back to yellow like you had in the previous update?

1. yes free french has both it's own bonus and bonus for cauldron.

2. mortar, yes...sorry i'll fix that this arvo.

[asl80]

fair decisions for the last update cairns ... in aggreement with the colour changes/reversions/ legend stuff etc.

thanks for addressing some of my suggestions, and i know i wrote a lot of crap in that long sugeestion post, but there was one more in there that might still need addressing - (sorry - if i have skimmed over the responses to quickly and missed it)

But this be ;

* You mentioned in the last post that tobruk would be a win objective, how so, you'll have to put this in the legend.

* + just wondered if you could tell me abit about the airports for the gameplay concern i raised on the previous page [this could even be a question for oaktown if he comes by]

+ the issue of no small bonuses for axis if you want an axis/allies gameplay setup? - What are your thoughts? (or if discussed elsewhere just refer me) [maybe another one for oaktown on account of the similarity to the intention of berlin - how do you reakon it went there?]

[cairnswk]

A Random Collection of Suggestions and Comments:

* just a bit of support: i like the advance movements for the tanks.
However, i'd like to know a little more about the historical precedence for the airports, which could go along way to negating the use of the other features of the gameplay - like just dropping in at the top of the tank line, (or similarly the allied position)

On the original map, the airports were in these places, however, i don't thinnk they were used effectively by the Allies; Rommel appeared to use them more effectively in Africa, and certainly my research informs me that there was large German aircraft numbers on the Rotunda segnali airfield.

* A quick repeat on the boooooo for the red-outlined flags, but a new request that something else is used in the legend, as they don't seem essntial there, i.e. the explanations in the bottom left hand corner.

Yes i didn't like them either for this map, so they got changed.

* Why is the italian 2/10 cut off from the rest of the italian divisions?

Fixed.

* In the bottom legend i'd like to see the mortar info pic lose its white background.

Background still needed but changed to same background as the map itself.

* Tobruk/Gazalla fluro green glow - i detest fluro colours, and am considering making an official complaint, i'm just not sure who to yet. (it's not that bad - if there was another possibility that would be nice)

Changed to a yellow glow.

* The red color of the panzaremme looks good in the legend (i.e. matchs well - with the black of rommel too), but on the field the red in the tanks looks a little odd, has the appereance of being to bright red.
The tanks in yeti's post look cleaner. But in the new i've started to realise that the basic circles representing the tank tracks look a little to symbolic and simple.

Changed back to original colours

* You mentioned in the last post that tobruk would be a win objective, how so, you'll have to put this in the legend.

Taking all includes Tobruk, plus it all means that you won't be able to achieve a inw and leave neutrals untaken.

* i'd love to see a neutral layout that sets the start of play up as the taking of sides (and a simliar set up for the other maps in the trilogy if they are to come ... are they {ahh hmmm ... desert rats? ...)
[sometimes this happens on mibi's d-day, but its more a matter of luck then a "suggestive" feature of the game-play-map-setup.]

** Although, if you wanted the sides to be taken like this, i would imagine that there would have to be some smaller bonus opportunites for the axis team to balance with the small defendable options for the allies - i.e. cauldron, french s.africans.

Mmmm.... OK what sort of bonus do you think there should be for Allies or Axis.

Having the continents for each group will effectively set up a "side against side" if that's how player want to use it, but conquering an Allied or Axis side would create more interest in trying to gain one side or the other.

Lanyards is working on the xml this weekend, so there should be a post soon with the neutral layouts to show gameplay.

The Desert Rats will be map No 1 in the Trilogy, and El Amein will be No 3.

* Graphics of the tank arrows are nice. - except for P.Z. E. at the end.
The large map update in the works?
Going well Cairns, good work.

Arrows Fixed.

Thanks als80

[edbeard]

umm cairnswk.

if you eliminate the other players, then you do not need to take over the neutrals.

we've had this discussion before!

[cairnswk]

fair decisions for the last update cairns ... in aggreement with the colour changes/reversions/ legend stuff etc.

thanks for addressing some of my suggestions, and i know i wrote a lot of crap in that long sugeestion post, but there was one more in there that might still need addressing - (sorry - if i have skimmed over the responses to quickly and missed it)

But this be ;

* You mentioned in the last post that tobruk would be a win objective, how so, you'll have to put this in the legend.

Still to address that

* + just wondered if you could tell me abit about the airports for the gameplay concern i raised on the previous page [this could even be a question for oaktown if he comes by

Addressed

+ the issue of no small bonuses for axis if you want an axis/allies gameplay setup? - What are your thoughts? (or if discussed elsewhere just refer me) [maybe another one for oaktown on account of the similarity to the intention of berlin - how do you reakon it went there?]

addressed in version 21 below...bonuses may need adjusting.

Version 21

Changes:

1. main adjustments to legend - everything more compartmentalised
2. bonuses added for Axis and Allied groups to assist players in achieving goal for each side in play if they want that.
3. you need to be aware that some counts for terts in allies are included/not included in the same bonus for distinct continents.