CC Auto Tournaments.... ***ARCHIVE?***

[Craig25]

This is help for Tournament Organisers when considering the best set up of a Tournament. And, if CC can help you using their Auto Tournament function.

If improvements can be made off the back of this, then that would be ideal!

I am genuinely interested what other Tournament Organisers think on this, or if they have any other ideas to improve the quality of Tournaments on CC.

Here is the help page from CC on Auto Tournaments:

https://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=tournaments5

But, AT Tournaments have some limitations. So if you are considering running an AT, here is what you need to know:

1. ALL GAMES in a Round must complete before the next games can start.
This means Leagues are practically impossible. EVERY Player in every League is restricted to play at the speed of the SLOWEST Player in the Tournament. Imagine 200 players playing at the speed of the slowest player? - You get the picture.
POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENT: Facilitate games being scheduled to start by date, or day frequency, every 4 days, every Week, etc. Benefits: Much Better Tournaments, Faster Tournaments, Leagues.

2. Players cannot select their own Maps.
So in Tournaments where you see HOME MAPS for example. These cannot be ran as Auto Tournaments. Just be aware, when you know this, you can shape your tournament accordingly.

3.Tie Breakers
Any Tournament with Tie Breaker games are used to split players who are drawn. Also No can do. Be aware. Shape your Tournaments accordingly.

4.Game Start Process
All players must be included in games at the game setup stage. Inviting 1 player to a multi or 2 player game and the Tournament Organiser manually inviting their opponent/s later is not possible like you can do in player set up games. No possibility for 'Home' and 'Away' games utilising Fog as Home advantage. No biggie, but just be aware.
POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENT: Have option to start games with 1 player spot filled and grant Tournament Organiser permission to invite other players. If this is a simple fix (Can currently do it in Player set up games), then do it, if not, Organisers should be aware it is not possible.

5.You cannot set starting order in games
You probably know this already and have experienced the groans from unhappy 2nd shotters (-:


SUMMARY:
AT's are practically only suitable for KO Tournaments. But, for a KO Tournament, why on earth would a PLAYER go to the bother of automating a simple KO Tournament? It is entirely pointless.

IMPROVEMENTS:
There are 2 suggested improvements above. The 1st is hige because it infinitely increases the capability of existing Tournament capabilities. The 2nd suggestion may be a simple fix as the capability already exists in player set up games.



Hopefully someone finds this helpful and I get feedback and other ideas from Tournament Organisers.

NJOY!

[benga]

Not sure what are you announcing when I have already made an announcement.
I am moving this to archive.
I have explained why your tournament can't be run by AT and you have drawn conclusions that you think apply to every tournament.

[benga]

Restored from archive.
Let's see where this leads us.

[Craig25]

Thank you for re-posting this Benga.

Can you provide clarity on your statement so that people and myself are aware of current capability. Which points above are we actually capable of doing at the moment?

Because it came across from you that CC could not currently do any of them. But I will be delighted if I mis-undestood.

As soon as you have provided clarity, I can re-write and put it in the TO's Forum.

Not sure what are you announcing when I have already made an announcement.
I am moving this to archive.
I have explained why your tournament can't be run by AT and you have drawn conclusions that you think apply to every tournament.

[GeneralFault]

Well, I'm a littlebit caught in the middle with this.

Auto-tournaments are probably created to serve a single purpose and as a step of making lives easy, but they are not flexible to create certain tournaments.

I think it is a better plan to create an API (https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=529) with topic (https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=529&t=235795) and the explanation of topic (https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=529&t=86562).

With an API (perhaps even secured by a login and password) you give the flexibility to create games for tournaments automatically from a PHP-website, an App or an Excel-sheet.

Currently, for the Super League or the Champions League of Craig25, I created an Excel to manage the players, scores, draw and sequence. To give an example, we fetch the scores of results from the CC-API and automatically we calculate the scores and the standings. It should be a very big bonus to also create games, because this reduces the workload to a minimum and it makes the lives of so many volunteers quite easy. This means that for instance 6400 games can be setup with the click of a button.

There also lies sometimes the downside. I can totally understand that Tournament Directors or the Owners of CC want to prevent creating hundreds of games that lead to potentially pollution of databases and the risk of overcompute, overstorage and overnetworking (the 3 major components of hosting prices in general).

Again, this is probably worth the risk but this feature lies in the hands of the entrepeneurs (those who are willing to take calculated risks to raise more involvement) or the maintainers (those who keep the current status quo alive)...

time to choose sides; are we entrepeneurs or maintainers....

[Craig25]

Hey GF

Exceptional work as ever - I am 100% hoping the entrepreneurs come out on top! But then again, it's not my site I am crashing.

For a Tournament like the Super League it is a million miles away from being an AT Tournament. There are so many issues with it, it will never be an AT.

But, I am still very much up for understanding current capability then trying to establish, the improvements that offer the best ROI. It floats my boat (-:. Plus will allow me to maybe even run an AT!

Benga is going to clarify my understanding of capability of AT's at the moment, apparently some of the things that we couldn't do in the Super League can actually be done.

Also, Benga has started a thread on the TO Forum which I have got access to. So, When Benga clarifies what is currently possible tomorrow, I will condense this thread and put it onto his for other TO's to read and provide input.

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=236062

But your input, should be treated like input from Bill Gates himself!

Well, I'm a littlebit caught in the middle with this.

Auto-tournaments are probably created to serve a single purpose and as a step of making lives easy, but they are not flexible to create certain tournaments.

I think it is a better plan to create an API (https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=529) with topic (https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=529&t=235795) and the explanation of topic (https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=529&t=86562).

With an API (perhaps even secured by a login and password) you give the flexibility to create games for tournaments automatically from a PHP-website, an App or an Excel-sheet.

Currently, for the Super League or the Champions League of Craig25, I created an Excel to manage the players, scores, draw and sequence. To give an example, we fetch the scores of results from the CC-API and automatically we calculate the scores and the standings. It should be a very big bonus to also create games, because this reduces the workload to a minimum and it makes the lives of so many volunteers quite easy. This means that for instance 6400 games can be setup with the click of a button.

There also lies sometimes the downside. I can totally understand that Tournament Directors or the Owners of CC want to prevent creating hundreds of games that lead to potentially pollution of databases and the risk of overcompute, overstorage and overnetworking (the 3 major components of hosting prices in general).

Again, this is probably worth the risk but this feature lies in the hands of the entrepeneurs (those who are willing to take calculated risks to raise more involvement) or the maintainers (those who keep the current status quo alive)...

time to choose sides; are we entrepeneurs or maintainers....

[benga]

1. ALL GAMES in a Round must complete before the next games can start.
This means Leagues are practically impossible. EVERY Player in every League is restricted to play at the speed of the SLOWEST Player in the Tournament. Imagine 200 players playing at the speed of the slowest player? - You get the picture.
POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENT: Facilitate games being scheduled to start by date, or day frequency, every 4 days, every Week, etc. Benefits: Much Better Tournaments, Faster Tournaments, Leagues.

correct all games must finish
we have Official Event: The Championships that has no problem and it started 2019-08-07 07:00 CCT
League is possible, but only using the same map for the whole tournament

2. Players cannot select their own Maps.
So in Tournaments where you see HOME MAPS for example. These cannot be ran as Auto Tournaments. Just be aware, when you know this, you can shape your tournament accordingly.

true, for your example your tournament is using round robin and that's not an option,
however it is an option for 6 man escalaing games where each player picks a map for his group/entire tournament

3.Tie Breakers
Any Tournament with Tie Breaker games are used to split players who are drawn. Also No can do. Be aware. Shape your Tournaments accordingly.

correct

4.Game Start Process
All players must be included in games at the game setup stage. Inviting 1 player to a multi or 2 player game and the Tournament Organiser manually inviting their opponent/s later is not possible like you can do in player set up games. No possibility for 'Home' and 'Away' games utilising Fog as Home advantage. No biggie, but just be aware.
POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENT: Have option to start games with 1 player spot filled and grant Tournament Organiser permission to invite other players. If this is a simple fix (Can currently do it in Player set up games), then do it, if not, Organisers should be aware it is not possible.

only your tournament (or perhaps a few more) needed a special join order, so you can add this to the list in thread inside TO group

5.You cannot set starting order in games
You probably know this already and have experienced the groans from unhappy 2nd shotters (-:

correct, you can add this to the list too

[Craig25]

Hi Benga

TY for the reply.

I really need to learn to use those quotations (-:

From your reply it looks like the only one which I had a slight mis-understanding on is:

Craig25 wrote:
2. Players cannot select their own Maps.
So in Tournaments where you see HOME MAPS for example. These cannot be ran as Auto Tournaments. Just be aware, when you know this, you can shape your tournament accordingly.

"true, for your example your tournament is using round robin and that's not an option,
however it is an option for 6 man escalaing games where each player picks a map for his group/entire tournament"

So, it can be done in Multi-Player games but not 2 player. Understood, I will amend.





The only other one there is any debate on is:

Craig25 wrote:
1. ALL GAMES in a Round must complete before the next games can start.
This means Leagues are practically impossible. EVERY Player in every League is restricted to play at the speed of the SLOWEST Player in the Tournament. Imagine 200 players playing at the speed of the slowest player? - You get the picture.
POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENT: Facilitate games being scheduled to start by date, or day frequency, every 4 days, every Week, etc. Benefits: Much Better Tournaments, Faster Tournaments, Leagues.


"correct all games must finish
we have Official Event: The Championships that has no problem and it started 2019-08-07 07:00 CCT
League is possible, but only using the same map for the whole tournament"

In my opinion this proves my point. I have no intention of ever running a 1v1 Tournament that lasts 2 years

As a great example - The Super League has had 4604 games since 6th April - just over 1 month.

How many has the 1v1 element of 'The Championships' had in almost 2 years? I assume it is a League?

And, for a 1v1 League, what do you honestly thinks works better? Infact, waiting on all games finishing would make Tournaments like the SUPER LEAGUE un-runnable. That is how bad it is.

To make it clear, If I polled the Super League and said, do you want a scheduled start time where a Round starts every 4 days or do you want to wait until all games complete in a round before the next round starts?

The reply will be around 210 versus Zero. In favour of the Scheduled start. That is how unsuitable waiting for every game finishing is to a League system involving Circa 200 Players. It is common sense really.


I will take this and re-post it onto your AT thread at some point tomorrow. That is probably where it should go.

TY for your help again Benga.