Conquer Club

Although Rome was a strong empire before they converted to Christianity, they gained even more power after the change. But then the Church reached the peak of corruption and Europe fell into the Dark Ages.
Then in the Rennaisance and into colonial times, the powers of Europe were Christian.
Then Christianity brought power to the Christian government in Germany, until it began un-Christian practices, like mass murders of Jews, homosexuals, and mentally challenged people.
Then Christianity structured the world power of America.
However Christianity seems to be losing its hold on this nation, as the influence, respect, and overall power of America seems to be lessening.
Now, Christianity and power is growing in China and the Koreas, although the governments disapprove.

So, does Christianity follow prosperity? or is God helping His followers by giving them prosperity?

What about the Turks? And the ancient Chinese/Indians/Mongols? And the Aztecs? The Incas?

Caleb the Cruel wrote:Then Christianity structured the world power of America.

Not 100% accurate. True, some of the founding fathers were Christian, but some were Deists (generally believed in a God), and some were outright atheists.

Wow, if there ever was an arguable post, you've made it, Caleb. This thread has the potential to go south in a hurry. Nice job.

I don't think whether or not a culture adopts Christianity has any bearing on prosperity, otherwise, how do you account for the prosperity of non-Christian civilizations - the ancient Greek and Romans, the Chinese, the Japanese, etc.

Organized religion - any religion - will have the effect of calming the masses and can provide stability to a culture. But with the good effects come the bad: generally they come to regard their beliefs superior to all others and it becomes their mission to "save" the rest of the world. Hence we have the ill-conceived Christian Crusades into the Holy Land in the 1200s and the Islamic jihad against the West today.

So my answer would be, "no." I don't think whether or not a country/culture adopts Christianity has any bearing on whether or not it will become prosperous.

Caleb the Cruel wrote:Then in the Rennaisance and into colonial times, the powers of Europe were Christian.

I don't know, maybe i'm wrong, but I think that the Renaissance was more of a secular age.

Yeah the renaissance was a more secular time. And about the romans, I think adopting christianity led to its downfall. The people became complacent and no longer lusted for war. That lust for war is what made rome a great empire, and once they stopped that lust, they were defeated.

5 posts and still lookinglike good arguments..


Congrats caleb, you are a better thread creator than jay_a2j.

Why would you try and test God? He does not always lead Christians to prosperity on earth. If so why are there martyrs all over the place? If you ask me the fall of Rome had nothing to do with religion at all. Rome was a huge power and everyone else feared them. The Germanic tribes from the north were always in competition with each other and after loot. Who would be the greatest conquest possible? Who had the most loot? Rome. Also they adopted a well-fare system as the US and France have. France's is more in depth then the US's. In France many of the problems come from it because people can not work and be taken care of. In the US this is making the people lazy and that is why we are losing ground on our world power status. The Renaissance was started by Catholic philosophy being questioned. It was both secular and non-secular. Addressing the statemnent about our forefathers; this country (the US) was based on Christian ideas and values. As you will see, if you do the research, Christianity was one of the first (if not the first) to promote equality. Although when looking at Christianity there are several sects so if you are unclear what I am talking about please ask.

If you read that whole thing I salute you.

Don't Agree? Don't Understand? Please ask away.

I imagine Christianity brings Pat Robertson a lot of prosperity.

Caleb the Cruel wrote:Then in the Rennaisance and into colonial times, the powers of Europe were Christian.
Then Christianity structured the world power of America.

i agree with u, but there are flaws with ur post. First, during the colonial times, was the enlightenment, which encouraged scientific thinking, which im assuming, discouraged Christian thinking. also, it is true that some Founding Fathers weren't christian. Finally many people in the rennaisance weren't Christian. Da Vinci is the first to come to mind. btw, great thread, this will spur some arguments

reverend_kyle wrote:5 posts and still lookinglike good arguments..


Congrats caleb, you are a better thread creator than jay_a2j.

well you gotta admit, it's not that hard to trump most of jay's threads

Ancient Egypt flourished and they had some weird principles. What of those christian African and Pacific Islander countries that are on the brink of collapse?

It is pretty big of someone to assume to know the will of God regardless. And just because someone says they're "Christian" doesn't mean that they are.

gavin_sidhu wrote:Ancient Egypt flourished and they had some weird principles

true
but it flourished during the time period when God's people were present there, after the Jews left, Egypt went downhill

gavin_sidhu wrote: those christian African and Pacific Islander countries that are on the brink of collapse?

Ethiopia(an African nation) is arguably to be the longest surviving Christian area...
Christianity has survived there for hundreds if not thousands of years, that seems pretty good to me
and the other Christian nations of Africa ,and many in the Pacific, are pretty corrupt, and most of those countries have blended Christianity into their old indiginous and tribal religions, forming a non-Christian religion

Check out the Crusades, in the 1st one, and i mean the 1st one, most believed they were fighting for God. 100,000, against Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine......Hundreds of thousands. and they won, established their own kingdoms, stopped fighting for God, and died.


That is soooome Irony.....

Stopper wrote:I imagine Christianity brings Pat Robertson a lot of prosperity.

i agree with you there (though you probably should toss in the idiots who actually listen to that crazy fool as well)

About Cristianity leading the US to prosperity: how exactly is killing thousands of Indians and driving them off thier land becasue you want the gold and coal thats there good christian morals? (though knowing jay_a2j i'm pretty sure he coudl find a way to spin it...)

Also: Italy isn't exaclty doing all that well even though they have VATICAN CITY, they've had the whole Benito Mussolini thing to deal with.

Spain's another one, the monarchy, which went around "spreading christianity" to the natives of South America, was destroyed by England who essentially made a mockery of catholicism when they broke off to form the Anglican Church (sorry to any Anglicans out there)

P Gizzle wrote:i agree with u, but there are flaws with ur post. First, during the colonial times, was the enlightenment, which encouraged scientific thinking, which im assuming, discouraged Christian thinking. also, it is true that some Founding Fathers weren't christian. Finally many people in the rennaisance weren't Christian. Da Vinci is the first to come to mind. btw, great thread, this will spur some arguments

The Enlightenment Comes to America
The Americans, despite their religious background and relative autonomy (growing less by each passing year), were still intimately tied to the English nation. Developments in England, such as the Glorious Revolution, the new scientific methods, and the rise of Parliamentary government, made their way to the colonies as well. The American Enlightenment, which is generally dated from the Glorious Revolution of 1688, was, however, an uneven affair. In part, it involved the exporting of scientific, social, and political ideas from Britain, but also involved the exporting of radical and marginal ideas, such as the republicanism of the "commonwealthmen." In almost all cases, however, the American Enlightenment did not mean the abandonment of the radical Protestant ideas that originally inspired the settlement of America, but started a long process of secularizing these religious ideas. Millenarianism would be caught up in the ideology of republicanism and eventually produce secular ideas such as Manifest Destiny.
from http://www.wsu.edu/

it is a fact that not every single colonial person was Christian, but you have to admit that most were and have been up into the mid to late 1900's, however now Atheism is growing rapidly, the Church is becoming more corrupt and some denominations are developing un-Christian stands, and America is starting to lose worldwide respect and power


Not all people in the Rennaisance were Christian, but many were, and during this period was the Reformation...which was the end of the Medievel Catholic Church, and other denominations arose such as the Lutherans, Calvanists, and Anglicans

Im' pretty suer you realise that both of our houses are a LOT more religious now than they have ever been, people are even claiming that this is the third great awakening.

The nineties were a culmination of the cold war, where we relied on science more and more and less on religion. The nineties were a time of prosperity for us.

Also, you want to be a bit careful when you point out a rich country is cristian, since a LOT of countries are christian. Some of the richest countries per capita are actually Muslim ones who hit oil.

There are a lot of empoverished christian countries. Eastern European countries after the cold war, and even now, are pretty poor.

cowshrptrn wrote:

Stopper wrote:I imagine Christianity brings Pat Robertson a lot of prosperity.

i agree with you there (though you probably should toss in the idiots who actually listen to that crazy fool as well)

About Cristianity leading the US to prosperity: how exactly is killing thousands of Indians and driving them off thier land becasue you want the gold and coal thats there good christian morals? (though knowing jay_a2j i'm pretty sure he coudl find a way to spin it...)

Also: Italy isn't exaclty doing all that well even though they have VATICAN CITY, they've had the whole Benito Mussolini thing to deal with.

Spain's another one, the monarchy, which went around "spreading christianity" to the natives of South America, was destroyed by England who essentially made a mockery of catholicism when they broke off to form the Anglican Church (sorry to any Anglicans out there)

uhhhh, isn't Vatican City its own country?

it ahs a HUGE cultural impact on Italy though, Italy's pretty christian as far as european countries go. You cna't have vatican city within your borders and not be affected greatly

cowshrptrn wrote:Im' pretty suer you realise that both of our houses are a LOT more religious now than they have ever been, people are even claiming that this is the third great awakening.

The nineties were a culmination of the cold war, where we relied on science more and more and less on religion. The nineties were a time of prosperity for us.

Also, you want to be a bit careful when you point out a rich country is cristian, since a LOT of countries are christian. Some of the richest countries per capita are actually Muslim ones who hit oil.

There are a lot of empoverished christian countries. Eastern European countries after the cold war, and even now, are pretty poor.

In the majority of American polls, around 50% consider themselves non-Christian.

The period around the Cold War was the point where Christianity began this downward spirol, and the Cold War was not a very good time for America, unless you enjoy hiding in cramped, damp, cold bomb shelters.


Yes, many Islamic nations are rich, but they are often times plagued by terrorism. Also, after the Christians were pushed out of the Mid East, all the land has begun drying up into desert, the Mid East was once a lot wetter and more prosperous than it is today.

Eastern Europe also houses many Muslims, which causes problems. If Eastern Europe is to ever become prosperous, it must first remove or convert non-Christians.

Caleb the Cruel wrote:Eastern Europe also houses many Muslims, which causes problems. If Eastern Europe is to ever become prosperous, it must first remove or convert non-Christians.

you can't start applying your theory before its even been remotely close to proven and make extrapolations liek that (especially ones that sound that misogynistic)

The cold war was actually a pretty prosperous time for us, the increased military activity stimulated a lot of job growth. No one really lived in fear with the exception of the McCarthy era in the early days. Towards the end of the cold war we were VERY prosperous.

Also the very fact that there are christian nations out there that are becoming poorer, ie Germany which is a pretty religious nation disproves your theory.

Caleb the Cruel wrote:Yes, many Islamic nations are rich, but they are often times plagued by terrorism. Also, after the Christians were pushed out of the Mid East, all the land has begun drying up into desert, the Mid East was once a lot wetter and more prosperous than it is today.

That woudl be a terribel thing if they still got most of their income from agriculture. They dont' need arable land since they have oil. Dubai is currently a HUGE center for trade mainly ecause of oil, and its VERY muslim.