Faith

[vtmarik]

lol alright sounds good. What are you by the way?

My full religious title is closest to:
Druidic Unitarian Discordian SubGenius with Satanist tendencies.

[OnlyAmbrose]

It must be a difference on interpreting scripture. I have been a Christian for over 20 years. In all that time I have NEVER heard a minister tell someone that he absolves thier sin.


What verse is this?

"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Its always good to read the verses before and after a scripture to make sure its not taken out of context. "Retain sin" huh? I was under the belief that we were to forgive not retain.


When I need forgiveness I go to God. If you feel that you can't approach God and must instead go to a priest more power to you.



I read your link and it cleared it up for me. Thanks.

I gave that scripture with its chapter/verse in a recent post, so I took it for granted I didn't need to state the chapter and verse again. Either way, it's John 20:21-23.

And your minister would not tell you he has the power to absolve sin; fundamentalist Churches don't believe that, though I've always been at a loss why.

[jay_a2j]

lol alright sounds good. What are you by the way?

My full religious title is closest to:
Druidic Unitarian Discordian SubGenius with Satanist tendencies.

Now thats creepy!

[vtmarik]

lol alright sounds good. What are you by the way?

My full religious title is closest to:
Druidic Unitarian Discordian SubGenius with Satanist tendencies.

Now thats creepy!

Tee hee! Now it's up to you to determine which fragments of each that i've adapted into my system.

Have fun!

[OnlyAmbrose]

Oh and in regards to this:

When I need forgiveness I go to God. If you feel that you can't approach God and must instead go to a priest more power to you.

I approach God every night and then some (quite often before a test I didn't study for or before a cross country race I'm not ready for ). Furthermore, when I've descended into my dark periods of sin, I go on prayer sprees unlike anything I ever do regularly. God already knows what I have done, so I pray that I may gain the courage necessary to go before the men He tasked to absolve sins once he was gone to make my confession. During the confession (and often right after I commit a terrible sin and realize what I have done) one says an Act of Contrition. Variances are common but they all follow the same pattern. The one I grew up with is as follows:

"Oh my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended thee, and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because I have offended thee, oh my God, who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of thy grace, to sin no more, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen."

It's not as if as a Catholic you cut yourself off from God and go only to a priest. The priests are like the disciples- you could go to them for healing after Jesus had left the earth, but you still prayed to God.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Jay dont tell me you logged out without responding! D:

Well it's understandable, it's getting late over here too, bed time! Talk to y'all tomorrow

[jay_a2j]

Jay dont tell me you logged out without responding! D:

Well it's understandable, it's getting late over here too, bed time! Talk to y'all tomorrow

Didn't log out. I emailed my Pastor to get his thoughts. If and when I get a responce I will let you know.

[Paulicus]

confess your sins to one another not a priest or minister. I can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness. I don't have to tell a priest so he can tell me if I say 10 hail Mary's I'll be absolved of that sin. That is ludacris. Jesus is our mediator to God not man.



PRAYING TO MARY / SAINTS

Mary was not devine. She was human like you and I. I don't believe there are any scriptures that instruct us to pray to dead people. "When you pray, pray like this: Our Father who art in heaven" not "Blessed Mary , mother of God".

I think the popular misconception is one we see on the media.. with confession ending with the 10 hail Mary's and the donation to the Church treasury... as if we can buy our way out of sin, each sin being worth X amount of hail Mary's and Y $

Not being a catholic I don't know if this is actually done, but it is on movies and such.

[Backglass]

I still can't believe that supposedly normal, educated people believe in fairy tales and the only support of their views is unwavering belief in passages from the Brothers Grimm.

[Paulicus]

It's not about the book though.. it leads to the book, but faith and belief are not just a bunch of words scrawled on paper.. Before I became Christian I challenged the system, asked the questions as to why. And I was answered.. That is the point of faith and prayer, to build a relationship with God.. the book is just a record of others experiences, and the rules we need to live by.

[reverend_kyle]

MY RELIGION!

[Jargo The Axe]

Hey, Rev. you definitely should not lead a Jesus Freak clan....

[Knight of Orient]

im guessin that links is bad? i didint go cause i had a feeling it would be.

[Backglass]

im guessin that links is bad? i didint go cause i had a feeling it would be.

Yeah, it's pretty foul. WTF Kyle?

[OwlLawyer]

Paulicus... so the Bible is to be beleived literally. Yet at one point the Bible contained a book that should not have been there? God must have been asleep at the wheel that day.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Awesome jay, I'm honored that you're going to such lengths in response

confess your sins to one another not a priest or minister. I can go directly to God and ask for forgiveness. I don't have to tell a priest so he can tell me if I say 10 hail Mary's I'll be absolved of that sin. That is ludacris. Jesus is our mediator to God not man.



PRAYING TO MARY / SAINTS

Mary was not devine. She was human like you and I. I don't believe there are any scriptures that instruct us to pray to dead people. "When you pray, pray like this: Our Father who art in heaven" not "Blessed Mary , mother of God".

I think the popular misconception is one we see on the media.. with confession ending with the 10 hail Mary's and the donation to the Church treasury... as if we can buy our way out of sin, each sin being worth X amount of hail Mary's and Y $

Not being a catholic I don't know if this is actually done, but it is on movies and such.

Yeah. That's definitely not how it works. There is no money involved, and penance is not determined by the magnitude of the sin, but rather what it is that will help you become healed. In the past, when I have confessed sins of impurity, the priest will often recommend a rosary, because the rosary is traditionally an instrument of chastity. If I've sinned against someone else, the priest will suggest that for my penance I say prayers FOR that someone else.

Suffice to say the dramatized interpretation of confession portrayed in popular media is a little off from the real deal. Though it should be noted that confession varies from church to church, and priest to priest. You eventually pick out the best churches/priests- I've personally found that a man called Father Sebastian at a nearby abbey gives the best advice in the confessional.

In any case, i await your reply jay

[jay_a2j]

In any case, i await your reply jay

Ok, I got a responce. I asked what he thought about John 20:23 and the ability to forgive sin. God vs. man.


The main point was: "Jesus wants us to be his example in
all that we say and do. A priest or pastor or anyone for that matter can
not forgive sin. But, in our hearts we can forgive those who have sinned
against us. The surrounding passages deal with how we treat others in
light of our own forgiveness. "

and


"There is a real danger in only standing on one verse and making it a
principal, rather thatn looking at the verse in context and in relation to
the bible message as a whole. In addition, we define words different in
our modern english as to what was written and defined in the orginal Hebrew and Greek"




Basically, thats what I said. Only the blood of Christ can wash away sin. We can forgive others for wrongs they do but only Jesus can atone for sin.

[stinkycheese]

I still can't believe that supposedly normal, educated people believe in fairy tales and the only support of their views is unwavering belief in passages from the Brothers Grimm.

I wouldn't go so far as to say educated.

[OnlyAmbrose]

In any case, i await your reply jay

Ok, I got a responce. I asked what he thought about John 20:23 and the ability to forgive sin. God vs. man.


The main point was: "Jesus wants us to be his example in
all that we say and do. A priest or pastor or anyone for that matter can
not forgive sin. But, in our hearts we can forgive those who have sinned
against us. The surrounding passages deal with how we treat others in
light of our own forgiveness. "

and


"There is a real danger in only standing on one verse and making it a
principal, rather thatn looking at the verse in context and in relation to
the bible message as a whole. In addition, we define words different in
our modern english as to what was written and defined in the orginal Hebrew and Greek"




Basically, thats what I said. Only the blood of Christ can wash away sin. We can forgive others for wrongs they do but only Jesus can atone for sin.

But... the fact that it's "only one verse" doesn't change the fact that Jesus sent out the disciples to forgive sins. Furthermore, the doctrine is also based on the "apostolic tradition" of the Church; that being, the original disciples passed the doctrine on to their successors as Jesus passed it to them.

In regards to the last paragraph, I fail to see how it can be translated any other way. It seems very clear to me. Because the doctrine is both based on the Bible AND an apostolic tradition which has been passed down since Peter (a tradition which is never lost in translation), I don't see how you can brush off such a very clear verse as just something to be ignored. If you wanted to selectively choose what verses are translated right and which ones aren't, we would never get anywhere.

In short, and with all due respect, I don't believe your pastor adequately answered to my arguments. In fact, it would seem he evaded the real crux of the point and provided no solid, factual/Biblical evidence against my points.

[jay_a2j]

In any case, i await your reply jay

Ok, I got a responce. I asked what he thought about John 20:23 and the ability to forgive sin. God vs. man.


The main point was: "Jesus wants us to be his example in
all that we say and do. A priest or pastor or anyone for that matter can
not forgive sin. But, in our hearts we can forgive those who have sinned
against us. The surrounding passages deal with how we treat others in
light of our own forgiveness. "

and


"There is a real danger in only standing on one verse and making it a
principal, rather thatn looking at the verse in context and in relation to
the bible message as a whole. In addition, we define words different in
our modern english as to what was written and defined in the orginal Hebrew and Greek"




Basically, thats what I said. Only the blood of Christ can wash away sin. We can forgive others for wrongs they do but only Jesus can atone for sin.

But... the fact that it's "only one verse" doesn't change the fact that Jesus sent out the disciples to forgive sins. Furthermore, the doctrine is also based on the "apostolic tradition" of the Church; that being, the original disciples passed the doctrine on to their successors as Jesus passed it to them.

In regards to the last paragraph, I fail to see how it can be translated any other way. It seems very clear to me. Because the doctrine is both based on the Bible AND an apostolic tradition which has been passed down since Peter (a tradition which is never lost in translation), I don't see how you can brush off such a very clear verse as just something to be ignored. If you wanted to selectively choose what verses are translated right and which ones aren't, we would never get anywhere.

In short, and with all due respect, I don't believe your pastor adequately answered to my arguments. In fact, it would seem he evaded the real crux of the point and provided no solid, factual/Biblical evidence against my points.

We are called to forgive sin, when people sin against us. You are reading into sripture what is not there. Like I said before, this is a matter of interpreting scripture differently. Thats ok, Baptists interpret things differently then The Assembly of God and so on. Where I can see how you interpret that scipture the way you do, I believe it is an incorrect interpretation. I guess we just disagree.

(By the way, my pastor has not seen your posts. So he cannot "inadequately" answer your arguements. He mearly explained John 20:23 and what it means.)

[Paulicus]

Paulicus... so the Bible is to be beleived literally. Yet at one point the Bible contained a book that should not have been there? God must have been asleep at the wheel that day.

?? not quite sure which post you are talking about. I did not say any books where removed?

[OwlLawyer]

Maccabees

[Paulicus]

It's now in the apocrypha, there are many books and teachings that fall under this catagory, they are God related but not God inspired. Meaning under the scrutiny of scolars and church leaders the authors where not seen to be acting under God's inspired words, I do belive , allthough I would have to research more, that even some of the apostles writing fall under that category, but don't quote me on that.

[OwlLawyer]

Who decides?

[Jargo The Axe]

Umm.... did you completely ignore my post a few pages back?