Israel

[saxitoxin]

It boils down to a thousands year old fight over who controls land. I can't even say that out loud without being told accused of being anti-palestinian?

Correct. Because the fight is only like 80 years old so suggesting it's a thousands year old fight and is too muddled to figure out denies the undeniable reality of Palestinian claims.

The last Jewish state prior to Israel was in 60 B.C. In the intervening 2,000 years the area was under alternating European and Arab control. Just as Europe relinquished its claims, Zionism decided to reassert their dormant, 2,000 year old claim that they'd previously made no attempt to enforce and then start importing millions of people who had never lived there and were not related or descended to anyone who had ever lived there (the Ashkenazi are descended from European converts to Judaism).

Got it, so making a claim on land and importing millions of people to live there is wrong and should never be allowed. Israel should be disbanded and land given back to Palestinians... when does America start shipping 200+ million people back to Europe?

The U.S. made all Native Americans citizens with the right to vote, extended Bill of Rights protections to them, and removed all movement and travel restrictions on them.

If Israel did those three things with Palestinians I 100% guarantee the entire situation would be permanently resolved by the day after the next Israeli general election.

[Votanic]

The U.S. made all Native Americans citizens with the right to vote, extended Bill of Rights protections to them, and removed all movement and travel restrictions on them.

If Israel did those three things with Palestinians I 100% guarantee the entire situation would be permanently resolved by the day after the next Israeli general election.

Will the Palestinians be getting casinos?

[saxitoxin]

The U.S. made all Native Americans citizens with the right to vote, extended Bill of Rights protections to them, and removed all movement and travel restrictions on them.

If Israel did those three things with Palestinians I 100% guarantee the entire situation would be permanently resolved by the day after the next Israeli general election.

Will the Palestinians be getting casinos?

They'll be getting everything.

[2dimes]

You might be on to something. There are some big grey boats bringing things to the area.

[Pack Rat]

You might be on to something. There are some big grey boats bringing things to the area.

Yes, I heard that too. Let's call it Hamas humanitarian aid.

[mookiemcgee]

I get it, you've picked a side. I'm not picking a side

*waits for the applause to stop*

I'm making no moral equivalency.

You said the Israeli and Palestinian governments were doing the same thing, so yes you were making a moral equivalence.

No, I said they want the same thing (the land). You then projected that this means I am anti-Palestinian

Perhaps you can clarify, if this conflict is not over land, what is it a conflict over? Rice Krispies? Who should be evicted next week on Survivor? Which part of Europe produces the worst rappers (it's the UK)?

[mookiemcgee]

It boils down to a thousands year old fight over who controls land. I can't even say that out loud without being told accused of being anti-palestinian?

Correct. Because the fight is only like 80 years old so suggesting it's a thousands year old fight and is too muddled to figure out denies the undeniable reality of Palestinian claims.

The last Jewish state prior to Israel was in 60 B.C. In the intervening 2,000 years the area was under alternating European and Arab control. Just as Europe relinquished its claims, Zionism decided to reassert their dormant, 2,000 year old claim that they'd previously made no attempt to enforce and then start importing millions of people who had never lived there and were not related or descended to anyone who had ever lived there (the Ashkenazi are descended from European converts to Judaism).

Got it, so making a claim on land and importing millions of people to live there is wrong and should never be allowed. Israel should be disbanded and land given back to Palestinians... when does America start shipping 200+ million people back to Europe?

The U.S. made all Native Americans citizens with the right to vote, extended Bill of Rights protections to them, and removed all movement and travel restrictions on them.

I see, so if Israel just needs to really ramp up the land taking, killing, and start raping a bunch of Palestinian women until their culture and bloodlines are diluted to dust over a handful of generation...then make whats left of their society citizens of Israel with all the freedoms other citizens of Israel...then any claim Palestine had on the land would be meaningless.

[saxitoxin]

It boils down to a thousands year old fight over who controls land. I can't even say that out loud without being told accused of being anti-palestinian?

Correct. Because the fight is only like 80 years old so suggesting it's a thousands year old fight and is too muddled to figure out denies the undeniable reality of Palestinian claims.

The last Jewish state prior to Israel was in 60 B.C. In the intervening 2,000 years the area was under alternating European and Arab control. Just as Europe relinquished its claims, Zionism decided to reassert their dormant, 2,000 year old claim that they'd previously made no attempt to enforce and then start importing millions of people who had never lived there and were not related or descended to anyone who had ever lived there (the Ashkenazi are descended from European converts to Judaism).

Got it, so making a claim on land and importing millions of people to live there is wrong and should never be allowed. Israel should be disbanded and land given back to Palestinians... when does America start shipping 200+ million people back to Europe?

The U.S. made all Native Americans citizens with the right to vote, extended Bill of Rights protections to them, and removed all movement and travel restrictions on them.

I see, so if Israel just needs to really ramp up the land taking, killing, and start raping a bunch of Palestinian women until their culture and bloodlines are diluted to dust over a handful of generation...then make whats left of their society citizens of Israel with all the freedoms other citizens of Israel...then any claim Palestine had on the land would be meaningless.

If Israel does the three things I stated above, 52% of the electorate in Israel would be Palestinian. If the Palestinians choose to elect a government that does all that, then that's their problem. I suspect, though, that won't precisely be what happens.

[mookiemcgee]

It boils down to a thousands year old fight over who controls land. I can't even say that out loud without being told accused of being anti-palestinian?

Correct. Because the fight is only like 80 years old so suggesting it's a thousands year old fight and is too muddled to figure out denies the undeniable reality of Palestinian claims.

The last Jewish state prior to Israel was in 60 B.C. In the intervening 2,000 years the area was under alternating European and Arab control. Just as Europe relinquished its claims, Zionism decided to reassert their dormant, 2,000 year old claim that they'd previously made no attempt to enforce and then start importing millions of people who had never lived there and were not related or descended to anyone who had ever lived there (the Ashkenazi are descended from European converts to Judaism).

Got it, so making a claim on land and importing millions of people to live there is wrong and should never be allowed. Israel should be disbanded and land given back to Palestinians... when does America start shipping 200+ million people back to Europe?

The U.S. made all Native Americans citizens with the right to vote, extended Bill of Rights protections to them, and removed all movement and travel restrictions on them.

I see, so if Israel just needs to really ramp up the land taking, killing, and start raping a bunch of Palestinian women until their culture and bloodlines are diluted to dust over a handful of generation...then make whats left of their society citizens of Israel with all the freedoms other citizens of Israel...then any claim Palestine had on the land would be meaningless.

If Israel does the three things I stated above, 52% of the electorate in Israel would be Palestinian. If the Palestinians choose to elect a government that does all that, then that's their problem. I suspect, though, that won't precisely be what happens.

IDK, I think sitting Israel gov't may feel like sticking to your original allegory has more benefits. Just keep killing the Palestenians for 100 years or so and that 52% becomes like a 4%. It worked for the Americans amiright? It was 1968 when Native Americans received protections under the bill of right correct? If Israel can pull this off in 100 years they will be WAY ahead of schedule

[saxitoxin]

IDK, I think sitting Israel gov't may feel like sticking to your original allegory has more benefits. Just keep killing the Palestenians for 100 years or so and that 52% becomes like a 4%. It worked for the Americans amiright? It was 1968 when Native Americans received protections under the bill of right correct? If Israel can pull this off in 100 years they will be WAY ahead of schedule

That's fine but your metaphor doesn't work as no one is suggesting all Jews leave Israel, merely that Palestinians - if they're going to be ruled over by Israel - become citizens of Israel instead of non-citizen subjects. And if Israel doesn't want them as citizens, that it grant the State of Palestine functional independence which means: (a) no air / naval blockade of Gaza, (b) remove settlements and military garrisons from the West Bank, (c) withdraw completely from East Jerusalem as required by multiple UN resolutions, (d) enter into meaningful negotiations for payment of compensation for properties expropriated without legal process from individual Palestinians in 1948.

The U.S. universally made Native Americans citizens in 1924 (some individual tribes had citizenship as early as the 1820s through treaty, e.g. the Treaty of Moultrie Creek with the Seminole).

[saxitoxin]

The SAXI peace plan:

- Israel and Syria both terminate their claims to the Golan Heights which become a Druze homeland in a condominium between Israel and Syria, similar to Andorra. The Golan Heights accepts 100 years of treaty-bound unarmed neutrality and the permanent presence of UNDOF.
- Gaza annexed to Egypt (even though it doesn't want it) as a 100-year demilitarized zone with a UN observer force.
- The West Bank becomes the whole territory of the State of Palestine with its capital in Ramallah.
- Europe, the Gulf states, and the United States establish a fund to compensate Palestinian landowners for properties lost during the Nakba. All Jewish settlers in the West Bank are required to sell their homes to the aforementioned for fair market value.
- Israel removes its capital to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem becomes an international city with permanent residency limited to Palestinians and Israelis and Christian missionaries. The city is governed by a triumvirate composed of India, South Korea, and Singapore.
- Israel signs the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea which requires it to grant access to a seaport to landlocked nations (West Bank).
- - All Palestinian refugees who don't return to the West Bank are naturalized as citizens of their host nations.

[Votanic]

The SAXI peace plan:

- Israel and Syria both terminate their claims to the Golan Heights which become a Druze homeland in a condominium between Israel and Syria, similar to Andorra. The Golan Heights accepts 100 years of treaty-bound unarmed neutrality and the permanent presence of UNDOF.
- Gaza annexed to Egypt (even though it doesn't want it) as a 100-year demilitarized zone with a UN observer force.
- The West Bank becomes the whole territory of the State of Palestine with its capital in Ramallah.
- Europe, the Gulf states, and the United States establish a fund to compensate Palestinian landowners for properties lost during the Nakba. All Jewish settlers in the West Bank are required to sell their homes to the aforementioned for fair market value.
- Israel removes its capital to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem becomes an international city with permanent residency limited to Palestinians and Israelis and Christian missionaries. The city is governed by a triumvirate composed of India, South Korea, and Singapore.
- Israel signs the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea which requires it to grant access to a seaport to landlocked nations (West Bank).
- All Palestinian refugees who don't return to the West Bank are naturalized as citizens of their host nations.

Shouldn't the gays get the Dead Sea back?

[saxitoxin]

Shouldn't the gays get the Dead Sea back?

No, they were smote. There are no gays.

[ConfederateSS]

It boils down to a thousands year old fight over who controls land. I can't even say that out loud without being told accused of being anti-palestinian?

Correct. Because the fight is only like 80 years old so suggesting it's a thousands year old fight and is too muddled to figure out denies the undeniable reality of Palestinian claims.

The last Jewish state prior to Israel was in 60 B.C. In the intervening 2,000 years the area was under alternating European and Arab control. Just as Europe relinquished its claims, Zionism decided to reassert their dormant, 2,000 year old claim that they'd previously made no attempt to enforce and then start importing millions of people who had never lived there and were not related or descended to anyone who had ever lived there (the Ashkenazi are descended from European converts to Judaism).

Got it, so making a claim on land and importing millions of people to live there is wrong and should never be allowed. Israel should be disbanded and land given back to Palestinians... when does America start shipping 200+ million people back to Europe?

The U.S. made all Native Americans citizens with the right to vote, extended Bill of Rights protections to them, and removed all movement and travel restrictions on them.

If Israel did those three things with Palestinians I 100% guarantee the entire situation would be permanently resolved by the day after the next Israeli general election.

---------100% guarantee ...Saxi....
--------- Even today Native American Culture is being stripped away...
--------- So, at the turn of the 20th century A.D....The Native Americans and African Americans were on the same path...Then both given as you say....3 things...They then, have taken 2 separate paths...As set clear...In the book written by a Native American, "CUSTER DIED FOR OUR SINS"...The Native Americans adjusted to American life...Where African Americans turned to MARXISM, ACTIVISM...How much is to much, is there ever an end...Detroit had a weather man,Sonny Elliot(ironic , I think he was of Jewish decent, but not religious, like Jerry Seinfeld), He had a saying..."Is someone with 50 million dollars happier than someone with 20 million dollars???"...You give and give...People , will never be happy, THEY JUST WANT MORE
--------- Right now, BLM , a Marxist group has always been lock and step(modeled from) with The Palestine movement...They cheered the attack on Israel over the weekend...All the money Big Business shelled out to BLM...Where are those companies mouth pieces now???...All the LEFT media, urging on the Summer of Protests in 2020A.D...for the 2020A.D...election...Where is the uproar now???...Did you see Andrea Mitchell, CNN , interview???...Where she tried to make a Jewish mother feel responsible/guilty for the attack on Israel,that Jewish mother shut her up,put her in her place ...That The Democratic Party over the past 10 years , has gone from 80ish% support for Israel...Now it's at like 20ish%...An that's THE DEMOCRAT PARTY(people still think the Radical LEFT hasn't taken over the Party)...Who Jewish people have always backed....
--------- Every country in the Middle East could become part of Israel...The States of Israel...Of their own free will...Countries around the world...China,Russia/Soviet Union, and the like...Would set the guns targeted right on Israel.(Since they(most) left the Roman Empire 70 A.D. , the Jewish people have been kicked out of every country in the world, looking for a State of their own...In fact, the very day Columbus set sail for America, 60,000 Jewish people were being kicked out of Spain, sailing as well , towards the Eastern Med. Sea...The Ottoman Empire...)...Don't make bets, you can't cash Saxi...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[bigtoughralf]

The SAXI peace plan:

- Israel and Syria both terminate their claims to the Golan Heights which become a Druze homeland in a condominium between Israel and Syria, similar to Andorra. The Golan Heights accepts 100 years of treaty-bound unarmed neutrality and the permanent presence of UNDOF.
- Gaza annexed to Egypt (even though it doesn't want it) as a 100-year demilitarized zone with a UN observer force.
- The West Bank becomes the whole territory of the State of Palestine with its capital in Ramallah.
- Europe, the Gulf states, and the United States establish a fund to compensate Palestinian landowners for properties lost during the Nakba. All Jewish settlers in the West Bank are required to sell their homes to the aforementioned for fair market value.
- Israel removes its capital to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem becomes an international city with permanent residency limited to Palestinians and Israelis and Christian missionaries. The city is governed by a triumvirate composed of India, South Korea, and Singapore.
- Israel signs the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea which requires it to grant access to a seaport to landlocked nations (West Bank).
- - All Palestinian refugees who don't return to the West Bank are naturalized as citizens of their host nations.

Main challenge with that is it makes Palestine landlocked, whereas having Gaza would enable it to trade via the Med and help make it less dependent of its land neighbours.

Also why does Palestine have to give up a big chunk of its territory to placate Israel.

[bigtoughralf]

The Irish government has again criticised the Israeli government for its 'collective punishment' of Gaza that is 'not acceptable' and 'breaches international humanitarian law':

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2023/ ... cceptable/

OT's American posters trying to work out how they can continue pretending to be as Irish as a shamrock while also shamelessly roading on behalf of Benjamin Netanyahu:

[bigtoughralf]

The sole option for jp, jim and co is to switch their cultural allegiance to the only Irish who vocally and actively support the actions of the Israeli government: Ulster Loyalists.

Congrats guy. You can now be Irish and also support the genocide of Palestinians. You'll just need to remember you are now also staunch supporters of the British monarchy and of Northern Ireland remaining in the UK.

[Dukasaur]

The SAXI peace plan:

- Israel and Syria both terminate their claims to the Golan Heights which become a Druze homeland in a condominium between Israel and Syria, similar to Andorra. The Golan Heights accepts 100 years of treaty-bound unarmed neutrality and the permanent presence of UNDOF.
- Gaza annexed to Egypt (even though it doesn't want it) as a 100-year demilitarized zone with a UN observer force.
- The West Bank becomes the whole territory of the State of Palestine with its capital in Ramallah.
- Europe, the Gulf states, and the United States establish a fund to compensate Palestinian landowners for properties lost during the Nakba. All Jewish settlers in the West Bank are required to sell their homes to the aforementioned for fair market value.
- Israel removes its capital to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem becomes an international city with permanent residency limited to Palestinians and Israelis and Christian missionaries. The city is governed by a triumvirate composed of India, South Korea, and Singapore.
- Israel signs the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea which requires it to grant access to a seaport to landlocked nations (West Bank).
- - All Palestinian refugees who don't return to the West Bank are naturalized as citizens of their host nations.

I could agree to 1,2,3,6,7.

4 and 5 require some modification.

The historical parts of Jerusalem, as well as sufficient land outside of historical Jerusalem to provide for a power plant, water treatment, etc., should be governed as a condominium. Your proposal for the specific nations to oversee it is somewhat facetious, but the principal is sound. The condominium needs to guarantee reasonable access to pilgrims from all three religions and the safety thereof. Having observers from largely non-aligned countries like India and Singapore is a good idea, but I would make the chairmanship of the government part of the UNESCO bureacracy, with representation by major religious universities of all the relevant religions, plus an advisory council from hoteliers and other people with a vested interest in making pilgrims feel safe visiting. The non-historical parts of Jerusalem could be made non-sovereign self-governing enclaves.

Your proposal 5 is also mostly decent, but I think areas that are mostly Jewish could become self-governing enclaves with promises of neutrality.

[saxitoxin]

Main challenge with that is it makes Palestine landlocked, whereas having Gaza would enable it to trade via the Med and help make it less dependent of its land neighbours.

That is a challenge, but having a geographically bifurcated country is a recipe for disaster (see: Pakistan, East Pakistan). That's why this would have to be contingent on Israel signing the Convention on the Law of the Sea. Under UNCLOS, coastal states have certain obligations to landlocked states and the landlocked state may require customs-free access to the coastal state's ports.

Also why does Palestine have to give up a big chunk of its territory to placate Israel.

Obviously this whole thing is just to lull Israel into a sense of serenity. Ultimately, once the peace proposal was in effect, the idea is for Palestine to rapidly raise an army and retake all the land.

[saxitoxin]

The SAXI peace plan:

- Israel and Syria both terminate their claims to the Golan Heights which become a Druze homeland in a condominium between Israel and Syria, similar to Andorra. The Golan Heights accepts 100 years of treaty-bound unarmed neutrality and the permanent presence of UNDOF.
- Gaza annexed to Egypt (even though it doesn't want it) as a 100-year demilitarized zone with a UN observer force.
- The West Bank becomes the whole territory of the State of Palestine with its capital in Ramallah.
- Europe, the Gulf states, and the United States establish a fund to compensate Palestinian landowners for properties lost during the Nakba. All Jewish settlers in the West Bank are required to sell their homes to the aforementioned for fair market value.
- Israel removes its capital to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem becomes an international city with permanent residency limited to Palestinians and Israelis and Christian missionaries. The city is governed by a triumvirate composed of India, South Korea, and Singapore.
- Israel signs the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea which requires it to grant access to a seaport to landlocked nations (West Bank).
- - All Palestinian refugees who don't return to the West Bank are naturalized as citizens of their host nations.

I could agree to 1,2,3,6,7.

4 and 5 require some modification.

The historical parts of Jerusalem, as well as sufficient land outside of historical Jerusalem to provide for a power plant, water treatment, etc., should be governed as a condominium. Your proposal for the specific nations to oversee it is somewhat facetious, but the principal is sound. The condominium needs to guarantee reasonable access to pilgrims from all three religions and the safety thereof. Having observers from largely non-aligned countries like India and Singapore is a good idea, but I would make the chairmanship of the government part of the UNESCO bureacracy, with representation by major religious universities of all the relevant religions, plus an advisory council from hoteliers and other people with a vested interest in making pilgrims feel safe visiting. The non-historical parts of Jerusalem could be made non-sovereign self-governing enclaves.

Your proposal 5 is also mostly decent, but I think areas that are mostly Jewish could become self-governing enclaves with promises of neutrality.

I will accept these counter-proposals, with the caveat that the enclaves would only be permitted to exist if they were geographically attached to Israel-proper. A Jewish neighborhood of 200 people surrounded on all sides by Palestinian territory is a recipe for disaster.

My idea for Jerusalem was that it have a head of state appointed by a disinterested council, similar to Bosnia's High Representative appointed by IIRC the EU, Islamic Conference, Russia, U.S., etc. But I don't object to the amendments. I would also have a gendarmerie composed of Gurkhas. Singapore uses two battalions of Gurkhas right now for sensitive policing since they're not ethnically aligned so I think it'd work here, too.

[Lonous]

The SAXI peace plan:
- Gaza annexed to Egypt (even though it doesn't want it) as a 100-year demilitarized zone with a UN observer force.

Practically, that is almost impossible. We've been securing the peace between Egypt and Israel for 40+ Years. I spent 6 months in the Sinai making sure the kids behave.
There will always be the hot heads that come up with the grand idea of causing trouble and trying to stir something up. Both sides.
The Sinai was ideal, because most have to drive 50 miles to cause an incident and the idea starts to lose its luster on the trip there.
UN zones in and around Gaza would be lucky to have a 100 meter zone between peacekeepers and the line going each way.
You could easily snipe across that distance, to say nothing of larger salvos like rockets.

Its a grand and noble idea, but in an area that densely populated with two sides that already hate each other?
You would have to force the entire Palestinian population out. Some would not want to leave and would have to be forced out.
Which brings us right back to what the Israelis are trying to do long term.

No one reading this will see a peaceful solution to this crisis area during their lifetime.

[bigtoughralf]

Main challenge with that is it makes Palestine landlocked, whereas having Gaza would enable it to trade via the Med and help make it less dependent of its land neighbours.

That is a challenge, but having a geographically bifurcated country is a recipe for disaster (see: Pakistan, East Pakistan). That's why this would have to be contingent on Israel signing the Convention on the Law of the Sea. Under UNCLOS, coastal states have certain obligations to landlocked states and the landlocked state may require customs-free access to the coastal state's ports.

If international law doesn't stop Israel carpet bombing Gazan children then it's probably not going to stop Israel blockading a diminished Palestine.

I agree with you on bifurcated countries being weird though. Maybe Israel should also surrender a corridor between the two plus all the desert to the south of it, to keep both contiguous.

Also why does Palestine have to give up a big chunk of its territory to placate Israel.

Obviously this whole thing is just to lull Israel into a sense of serenity. Ultimately, once the peace proposal was in effect, the idea is for Palestine to rapidly raise an army and retake all the land.

All objections withdrawn.

[bigtoughralf]

Israeli police have detained a BBC new crew. The crew were dragged from their car, their phones smashed, and they were held at gun point by police who threatened to shoot them if they so much as moved:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67102956

Meanwhile, the UN has publicly criticised Israel for its order that Gazan civilians flee to Egypt, stating that the 'noose around the civilian population in Gaza is tightening'. As this criticism was being published, US attempts to coerce the UN Security Council into criticising Hamas were rebuffed by the rest of the Security Council:

https://www.9news.com.au/world/israel-h ... 76081dab7e

[saxitoxin]

I spent 6 months in the Sinai making sure the kids behave.

I'd like to hear some stories about this.

[Lonous]

I spent 6 months in the Sinai making sure the kids behave.

I'd like to hear some stories about this.

No epic tales unfortunately. The U.S. fulfilling our duty to the MFO under the accords signed by Carter.
A battalion rotates in and out every 6 months.
We happened to get assigned to south camp, which is the ass end of the Sinai.
Very little to see, but nice beaches and much less turbulence as far as incidents that have to be handled.

Best thing about my 6 months there was the food. We ate like kings, truly.
Personally I wanted to know a bit more about why the hell I was there, so read the bible, the koran, and the torah during my 6 months.

PSA: trying to climb the pyramids at night in a sneaky fashion while intoxicated is not an advisable way to build good will with your host nation.