DKs CSFR series 06 -- Nitra [W=Captn B]

[Dukasaur]

On second attempt, Liveoak accepted his invites and all Game 1 and 2s have now begun.

[Dukasaur]

Games 3 and 4 have been issued.

[Dukasaur]

Druidpk has missed three consecutive invites and is removed from the tournament. Reserve I AM NATO is called up to active duty.

[Dukasaur]

Game 5s and Game 6s have been created and invites sent.

[Captn B]

Do you have a working Leaderboard to show us how we're doing so far? Just curious.

Thanks for doing these cool tournaments.

[Oneyed]

I would like to ask players if bonuses, connections are clear and if you like the new bonus system?
thanks

Oneyed

PS: sorry for off post, Dukasaur.

[Dukasaur]

Do you have a working Leaderboard to show us how we're doing so far? Just curious.

Thanks for doing these cool tournaments.

No scoreboard yet.

... and you're welcome...

I would like to ask players if bonuses, connections are clear and if you like the new bonus system?
thanks

Oneyed

PS: sorry for off post, Dukasaur.

Not a problem...

[Captn B]

I would like to ask players if bonuses, connections are clear and if you like the new bonus system?

First time I've played this map, so no familiar with the old bonus system. But I do like most aspects of the map! The bonuses and connections were not clear to me at the first and I had to read and re-read the legends many times. But now that I've gotten the hang of it, I enjoy the added strategy requirement of figuring out how to get to where I want to be and how to break the other guy.

One aspect that I do not care for or respect, tho I understand why it may have been done in trying to represent the real life situation, is the negative bonus. If a player is doing very well by taking the other guy's terts, then why should he be penalized for doing well? To kill the opponent, you must take his cities. So to have a -2 or a -4(! -- VERY harsh!) seems counter productive and extends the game unnecessarily (since +2 here and -2 there cancel each other out and thus for conquering more terts, you are penalized and get less reward -- very un-user friendly!). Perhaps -1s for being in and owning too much of the other country could work, but -2 and -4 are simply too large of a deterrent for entering the other country!

Otherwise, I enjoy the map.

Thanks,
CB

[Dukasaur]

Game 7s and Game 8s have been issued.

On the long weekend I'll start the scoreboard.

[Oneyed]

First time I've played this map, so no familiar with the old bonus system.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=162795 here is link to map topic. under spoiler is previous version.

But I do like most aspects of the map! The bonuses and connections were not clear to me at the first and I had to read and re-read the legends many times. But now that I've gotten the hang of it, I enjoy the added strategy requirement of figuring out how to get to where I want to be and how to break the other guy.

I am glad that you like it. even when it look a little complex at the first look.

One aspect that I do not care for or respect, tho I understand why it may have been done in trying to represent the real life situation, is the negative bonus.
If a player is doing very well by taking the other guy's terts, then why should he be penalized for doing well?
To kill the opponent, you must take his cities. So to have a -2 or a -4(! -- VERY harsh!) seems counter productive and extends the game unnecessarily (since +2 here and -2 there cancel each other out and thus for conquering more terts, you are penalized and get less reward -- very un-user friendly!). Perhaps -1s for being in and owning too much of the other country could work, but -2 and -4 are simply too large of a deterrent for entering the other country!

just two regions have this negative ability. but holding them also brings +2 autodeploy and bonus for holding 4 towns. I do not think negative bonus could be hindering in eliminating opponent.

Otherwise, I enjoy the map.

Thanks,
CB

I thank yoy

Oneyed

[Captn B]

just two regions have this negative ability. but holding them also brings +2 autodeploy and bonus for holding 4 towns. I do not think negative bonus could be hindering in eliminating opponent.

In one of my games, I owned both capitals or whatever the criteria was that precipitated the penalty. And because I conquered those territories, I got penalized. My positive bonus was neutralized. And it delayed the game and my progress unnecessarily. Thankfully, one of the nuke cards took me off one of the capitals, so I was able to continue. But once you own both caps, then you cannot intentionally lose them (esp if your opponent recognizes that they are harming you). It could easily cause a reversal of the whole game.

If you assert that there is no effect in having the negative bonus, then why have it?

Also, perhaps a somewhat darker country outline, specifically between Czech and Slovakia, would be helpful. I missed that distinction for a few turns at the first. Others may too.

And one more "last thing" (lol), at times, the Map tab shows that someone may be in line to receive a +2 (praha and towns), but on the Overview the amount of deploy, and on the turn, there is no additional bonus given. Perhaps I simply don't understand something here?

[Dukasaur]

just two regions have this negative ability. but holding them also brings +2 autodeploy and bonus for holding 4 towns. I do not think negative bonus could be hindering in eliminating opponent.

In one of my games, I owned both capitals or whatever the criteria was that precipitated the penalty. And because I conquered those territories, I got penalized. My positive bonus was neutralized. And it delayed the game and my progress unnecessarily. Thankfully, one of the nuke cards took me off one of the capitals, so I was able to continue. But once you own both caps, then you cannot intentionally lose them (esp if your opponent recognizes that they are harming you). It could easily cause a reversal of the whole game.

If you assert that there is no effect in having the negative bonus, then why have it?

If I may interject, I think the idea is realism. Since the country is breaking up at the time being simulated, a leader could not be popular in both sides. A rising star politically would have to focus on either being Czech or being Slovak. Even if he had been popular in both sides earlier, he couldn't "sit on the fence" during the divorce and expect to keep his seat.

There's always a conflict between "accuracy" and "playability" in Conquer Club's maps, and unfortunately (in my opinion) playability usually wins. In this case, however, I don't think that accuracy and playability are in conflict. You simply have to make the strategic choice at the beginning of the game -- "I am going to build a power base in Bohemia" or "I am going to build a power base in Slovakia" and once you've made that choice, stick to it, at least until you're strong enough that it doesn't matter any more.

Also, perhaps a somewhat darker country outline, specifically between Czech and Slovakia, would be helpful. I missed that distinction for a few turns at the first. Others may too.

Agreed.

And one more "last thing" (lol), at times, the Map tab shows that someone may be in line to receive a +2 (praha and towns), but on the Overview the amount of deploy, and on the turn, there is no additional bonus given. Perhaps I simply don't understand something here?

Yeah, that's a pain in the ass. Very much so! It is, however, a glitch in the way Map Inspect works, and not something under the mapmaker's control.

[Oneyed]

Dukasaur is right about negative bonus. it is based on history, the map is about dividing the common state of Czechs and Slovaks - Czecho Slovak Federal Republic. the goverments of Czech republic and Slovak republic one year divided common state (army, debt, gold reserves and so on) and on January 1st 1993 it took effect.

I try to have accuracy on my maps as is possible. and for me is accuracy more important as gameplay (to the time when accuracy does not totaly break gameplay ofcourse).

about border between Czech/Slovak republics, it is the same as border of entire state, it has also bigger opacity as border of kraje.

about showing bonus, you mean that it looks that somebody could have more troops (for bonus capital+towns) but he does not receive it?

Oneyed

[Captn B]

Ah. Okay. So I am giving viable feedback and you truly are interested in analyzing the effectiveness of the map and not just looking for kudos. Great! And for that I give kudos!

If I may interject, I think the idea is realism. Since the country is breaking up at the time being simulated, a leader could not be popular in both sides. A rising star politically would have to focus on either being Czech or being Slovak. Even if he had been popular in both sides earlier, he couldn't "sit on the fence" during the divorce and expect to keep his seat.

Dukasaur is right about negative bonus. it is based on history, the map is about dividing the common state of Czechs and Slovaks - Czecho Slovak Federal Republic. the goverments of Czech republic and Slovak republic one year divided common state (army, debt, gold reserves and so on) and on January 1st 1993 it took effect.

I try to have accuracy on my maps as is possible. and for me is accuracy more important as gameplay (to the time when accuracy does not totally break gameplay of course).

Okay. So you both missed what I said initially:

One aspect that I do not care for or respect, tho I understand why it may have been done in trying to represent the real life situation, is the negative bonus.

So I/we (most people (who read your intro) would) understand that--[perhaps with maps which carry special significance from a historical perspective, you could produce another page (with its link on the first page), which describes the special circumstances and the significance of that map and an abbreviated history of the making of that map ]. Yet if what you both said were true, then the goal of this map would be to fully occupy and hold for one turn one country or the other, instead of eliminating the opponent. THAT's where it breaks down! If I have to kill my opponent to win the game, a) then I HAVE to take terts in both countries and am being penalized for doing what you require me to do, b) it loses reality in that the politician MUST take terts in both countries, NOT trying to sit a fence, but doing what ids required of him), owning territories in both countries, and c) to win, I am re-uniting the two divided countries, which is FAR from reality. Agreed?

YOU are sitting the fence, in reality. Either we take both countries to re-unite them by conquering the enemy, or we ONLY own one country or the other. You can't have it both ways and then penalize the players for doing well in taking the other guy out. That is nonsensical. Let me fight Peter Pan and Captain Hook, as primary and secondary opponents, individually (hey, maybe there's a map in that? lol)--OR--together as a unified enemy --but not separately AND together at the same time. Or more simply the legend could read: "Take 4 terts to win, but if you only take 3, then I'll hurt you(/penalize/punish/spank you for doing so)!"

The negative penalty is convoluted, unnecessary, and, at times, unnecessarily extends the game (and can even reverse what should be the true winner by this confusion).

Next point:

Also, perhaps a somewhat darker country outline, specifically between Czech and Slovakia, would be helpful. I missed that distinction for a few turns at the first. Others may too.

Agreed.

Well, Duk and I both agree, tho I think we both recognized that it is the same border as around each country and that its opacity is darker. Still it remains that there still may not be quite enough contrast to make the map distinctly reflect that there are two separate countries at odds with each other. I'm just saying that it would be an enhancement if the separation were darker and more distinct. Duk agreed.

Last point:

about showing bonus, you mean that it looks that somebody could have more troops (for bonus capital+towns) but he does not receive it?

Yes exactly. Tho Duk explained that there is a problem with Map Inspect, it still doesn't resolve the issue and CC as a whole still reports inaccurate data. Either way, either the map or Map Inspect is lying to the player. The player doesn't care who is lying; he simply knows that something is screwy with CC. My suggestion is that it be fixed. Either the map reporting code or the Map Inspect code. Whoever's fault it is, it doesn't reflect well on the map.

I've taken a lot of time to make this (and the previous posts), so I hope that my feedback is useful and beneficial. I'm not criticizing just to be a pain in the butt, but rather to be an ass-et (lol) in giving proper and accurate input.

Good luck in your future endeavors. If you want further clarification, pls pm me, as opening 4 tabs to quote from 3 people (including me), skipping back and forth, double checking..... isn't for me.

Hope this has helped! Thanks for the map and the tourney and good luck in your future endeavors here on CC!
Captn B

[Dukasaur]

As of April 6th, scores have been collected for all 1v1 games (Games 1 through 4)
Link to the scoring spreadsheet


Games 9 and 10 will be out shortly.

[Dukasaur]

As of April 6th, scores have been collected for all 1v1 games (Games 1 through 4)
Link to the scoring spreadsheet


Games 9 and 10 will be out shortly.

Games 9 and 10 sent...

[Captn B]

Hey Oneyed,

An update: I really HATE this map for poly 4 and the Nuclear setting!!!

So, I'm doing well, winning as I should be winning, but now the cards begin to kick in. Tho I've eliminated one of his 4 identities, taken many terts (as I am supposed to do), earned positive bonuses, and (since) I have "earned" cards, I now have the wonderful benefit of killing myself and my positive bonuses before I even get to the negative bonuses! It sucks the life out of all my advancements!

Please just let me kill my enemy like I am supposed to do and don't penalize me for doing so!

I'm gonna REALLY hate this map if the whole game turns around and I lose because I've lost what I've already gained. And I bet others will feel the same way too. Its like playing a game of chess and when I take an enemy's rook, he gets another queen added to his side because I caused him to lose a piece. Wonder what would happen if I were to take a bishop or his queen?--he'd be rewarded with two queens or another king? (Does this sound and look as confused as I feel? lol)

Frustration at the confusion of the map won't breed endearment for the map.

Unless a clan game or some other situation not of my choosing, I will never play this map poly 3 or 4 again.

Oh, and, since its a small map, there should be a terminus in sight. Meaning: If there are many changes and reversals, and the game never seems to end, at some point, with no end in sight, we get exasperated and sick of the experience.

Maybe you're interested in making it more user friendly? Maybe you can have an alternate method of winning by taking one country or the other, as well as killing your opponent? Perhaps that one modification will be enough to bring people back to this map? idk. As it is now, i'm frustrated by it and probably will not choose to play this map again, after the tourney ends.

I wonder if others feel the same way?

[Dukasaur]

Games 11 and 12 sent out. Good luck, everyone...

[Dukasaur]

If you still need players im in

Thank you... second reserve for now.

Chris.yfc has left the site. Callmenorcal is called up to active duty.

[Dukasaur]

Game 13s and 14s are out.

[Dukasaur]

Scoreboard has been updated to reflect the Polys, which are now all done.

Game 15s and 16s have been sent.

[b00060]

Ill be a reserve

[Dukasaur]

Ill be a reserve

Thanks, b00!

[Dukasaur]

Ill be a reserve

Thanks, b00!

B00060 replaces Ag3nT Z3D, who has gone AWOL. All games have now begun. Just a matter of time until a champion emerges...

[Mad777]

This tournament is still active.