RTS based map. ( can you remove this post someone? )

[WILLIAMS5232]

hi,

i really have no experience in this matter. and i have read through the forum, and it's all greek to me. so i have little computer experience and don't know what a jpeg or a bitmap is. i guess i'm saying i need help if anyone is interested. i realize that this is a long process and am willing to put the time in.

so i have an idea for a map. it would accommodate 8 players and have numerous auto-deploys, 1 way attacks, and bombards. featuring a paper rock scissors effect. also bringing in the aspect of lose your base, you lose all. such as the middle ages map. it would contain approximately 160 territories. with no continent bonuses, except maybe like a bonus for holding a full base.

to be suited for a quad game there would be 2 sides, each with 4 bases.

each player would start with just 1 central base.

a full base would include 13 territories;

- 4 watch towers (bombard only) starting at a neutral 3 with a +2 auto deploy. 2 separate one way bombard for local air unit. 1 individual one way bombard for local infantry unit, and 1 individual one way bombard for local vehicle unit., 3 supply pads that start at a neutral 3 for each one, have an auto deploy of +1, and a territory bonus of +! each. there would be 2 reactors starting at a +6 neutral, and would have a plus 2 auto deploy. then there would be a barracks, garage, and airfield. the garage and airfield would have a +10 starting neutral, and the barracks would be set at neutral 3. all with a +3 auto deploy.

-if you picture a 3x3 square, that would be the base. the watch towers would be on the 4 corners. the central square would be the starting point. (central base) it would attack watchtowers and all base structures. the supply pads would be the top 3 squares above the central base, the 2 squares beside the central base would be the reactors, and in the bottom there would be the barracks, garage, and airfield. all structures could attack neighboring structures and central base.

in the back of the base there would be a transport aircraft. this would allow reinforcements to any troops on the board, but can not attack. (i don't know if this is possible but it would be nice if it were) it would start at like a +20 neutral or maybe less or more? but could never be attacked. (losing the base would clear it to a neutral)

in front of the base there would be a vehicle, an infantry territory, and an aircraft territory. all can attack or be attacked by the supply pads. these are also vulnerable to the watch towers, and can attack the watch towers (although the watchtowers are limited to what group they can bombard, the three can all attack any watchtower). in the middle of the map there would be another set of these, this would mirror the other side. so there would be 4 potentially friendly bases, and accross the map there would be 4 opposing bases. it would be like a defend your base, winning the battle in the middle exposes the other players base defense.

aircraft can attack aircraft and vehicles.
vehicles can attack vehicles and infantry
infantry can attack infantry and aircraft.

aircraft would also be able to attack neighboring friendly aircraft or one way attack vehicles.

if you've played "halo wars" then that's kind of the base idea i have for it. so that may help a little. of course i realize that it can't be associated with that. that will be easy enough.

i may have posted too much, but i want this to happen so i figured the more information the better. i also realize that it may be a little confusing to read. but it's not that complicated. i can maybe draw a sketch on paint if that is necessary.

so if this interests anyone who knows what they are doing, that's great. i would appreciate the help. i don't even care about saying it's mine or anything like that. i just want to play it one day. or maybe you don't know how, but you know someone that does, pass it on. i would appreciate that as well.

anyway thanks for reading,
and have a good day

clicking this map will enlarge it. this just proves how much i lack in computer skills, this is the best i could muster.

Click image to enlarge.

[Riskismy]

Well, I have to admit I find it pretty confusing. Firing up Paint and doing a quick sketch, or even just scanning a drawing, would go a long way towards getting some real feedback (at least from me).

Sounds sufficiently complicated to get my attention, and hope to see more

[natty dread]

^what he said

[WILLIAMS5232]

how do i post an image from paint?

[natty dread]

Upload it to an image hosting site like imageshack. Then get the url of the image and post it between [img] tags.

[WILLIAMS5232]

rough draft added to original post

[natty dread]

Click image to enlarge.

[Riskismy]

hehe. If this is your idea of simple, I'd like to see complex

A few questions:
What is the significance of the circles next to the letters a-h on the overview? Are those territories, and if so, how do they relate to the detailed view showing paths of attack?

I assume there would be a similar line of attack outside bases e-h as there is north of bases a-d? I would like to see other/more ways of getting from one base to the next - seems like it might be very easy to hold a base once you have it (which, granted, doesn't appear easy at all).

In your first post you mention lots of auto-deploy rules, could you maybe order them a bit and list them to get a better overview of them?

I like the idea, hope you push on with it!

[WILLIAMS5232]

i guess the simplicity comes from it being "my" idea, anyway, once played a few times it should come together for most folks that want to understand it.

Q. the circles on next to a-h on overview? what are they?

A. they are in fact territories, somewhat of a transport plane. my idea for them would be a resetting neutral. pretty big number to make it kind of expensive to use. i would plan on it being only one-way attacked by the barracks in that base. but it could one way attack any field territory ( air, infantry, vehicle ) the circle square and triangle.


Q. do the triangle ( airplanes ) attack the same on the e-h side as the a-d side?

A. Yes they do, everything will be mirrored from each side to the next. i'm not certain it will be hard to hold if you are being attacked, but yes if you are attacking then holding a base should be easy, except for the surprise attack from the transport plane. the supply pads would be one way assualted by the three units in front of the base. ( circle, triangle, and square ) i'm not sure how well this will be played single player, ( i see it being just as interesting ) but i'm thinking it will be a very good team game. it should limit the whole "stack on one player" ordeal that i see many maps go through, because each player will be able to help the next through the airplanes, once an attack is forseen. and there will just be too many valuable bonuses in each base for each player to not pass up. fog will make it 10x's better (in my opinion).


my first post was just a quick idea, as i have not given it very much serious thought until i started posting about it. but here is a little clearer outline of it all.

2 sections;

A. base,
..1. central base (cb)
....a. each players starting point, +5 auto deploy, and no bonus.
....b. can one way attack guard towers, and two way attack supply pads, and reactor 1 (R!)
..2. supply pad (s)
....a. 3 supply pads, 2 set at a neutral 2, and the middle one set at neutral 10.
....b. +1 bonus for each supply pad, plus 6 bonus for holding all 3 supply pads.
....c. can only attack adjacent supply pads, and central base.
..3. guard towers (blue circles on each corner of base)
....a. set at neutral 3.
....b. +1 auto deply, (not sure if possible, but i'm thinking for each reactor the auto-deploy would double)
....c. can only bombard closest three units. ( square, triangle, and circle)
..4. reactor 1 ("r" closest to cb)
....a. set at neutral 4.
....b. no bonus
....c. can attack central base, and barracks.
..5. barracks (b)
....a. set at neutral 4
....b. +4 auto deply, and +1 bonus, (not sure if this is possible either but would be ideal for what i'm shooting for)
....c. can attack reactor 1, reactor 2, and one-way attack transport ship and square in front of base
..6. transport ship (oval at rear of base)
....a. set at a high neutral to be determined
....b. no bonus
....c. attack any field circle, square or triangle
..7. reactor 2 ( other 'r' )
....a. set at neutral 10.
....b. no bonus
....c. can attack garage (g), airfield (a), or reactor 2.
..8. garage ( g )
....a. set at neutral 4
....b. +3 auto deploy, and +2 bonus
....c. can attack reactor 2 and one way attack the circle in front of the base.
..9. airfield ( a )
....a. set at neutral 10
....b. +! auto deply and +4 bonus
....c. can attack reactor 2 and one way attack nearest outside triangle.
..10. other
....a. losing central base will lose whole base, preferably to conquering player, but i assume neutral is all that is possible.
......1a. this will not lose armies in field.
....b. holding all of base, including watchtowers but not transport plane, will accumulate extra bonus.
..B. field units. ( i've not considered what count for the neutrals, i've got many ideas )
....1. triangles, ( air units )
....a. can attack front, back and side to side air units. can one way attack forward adjacent vehicles ( circles )
....b. plus 1 auto deploy
..2. circles, ( vehicles )
....a. can attack front and back vehicles, and one way attack forward adjacent infantry (squares)
....b. plus 1 auto deploy.
..2. squares, ( infantry )
....a. can attack front and back vehicles, and one way attack forward adjacent air units.
....b. plus 1 auto deploy.
..3. other
....a. .....still thinking......

so that's a quick overview of everything. i'm hoping that this will be a nice team map, as well as indiividual. it kind of holds the paper rock scissors aspect, i'm thinking it will play a little more strategically, and once played a few times become easily understandable. also i believe that it will not limit it self to just one strategy. there would be plenty of different ways to play it as there are several routes around the map, and bonuses that need to be collected in order to make the long haul, along with several choices that will have to be made about when to attack where.

thanks for the interest, and the help, you two. i have scanned these forum pages and found out about the "gimp" software, i installed it and will play with it this weekend to see if i can make sense of it. until then i hope that this will go somewhere.

[WILLIAMS5232]

Click image to enlarge.

I've tried to make this a little easier to understand, it's pretty cut and dry.

i've been working on "gimp" it's got a lot of detail involved with it. i have my idea for neutral territories, bonuses, and attacking lanes in an earlier post.

this map pretty much demonstrates attack lanes.

red arrows are one way.
black lines are two way.
triangles can attack adjacent triangles in the next block.
transport planes, (blue circle) can one way attack any triangle, square, or circle. but will be a resetting neutral
guard towers, ( green circle ) can bombard closest circle, square, and triangle.

the barracks are the only way to the transport planes, and it is a one way attack.

so the basic theory is,
you need supply pads to grow the army,
barracks produces infantry, which is the easist to access, but is the least useful
taking the first reactor will access the barracks,
after taking the second reactor the airfield and vehicles can be accessed, air units being the strongest, ( according to attack paths, and bonuses. )

air units are the only territories that can attack outside of the attack lane. ( bold black line )

guard towers are bombard only, they would be somewhat expensive, but should help defend the base with generous auto deploys,

losing central base forfiets the base, but would not lose armies out in the "field of play"

so i hope that helps, i'm new to this, and would like any input anyone may have, i just don't know the proper steps in making a map since i have no experience in this. i realize this may be a long process, but i just don't know if i'm going about it the right way.

[Riskismy]

Well, while that did help a lot, I think it's still quite hard to get a hold on what's going on.
Since they're four identical sections, maybe you could make a file with just two of them and make it larger so the paths of attack are clear? Also, would be nice if you could visualize the paths of attack from section to section.

Quite a lot of attack rules to keep in mind, I think. Maybe it will be clearer with a larger image.

[WILLIAMS5232]

hope this helps a little better.



i also forgot to put in the post that the central base can one way assualt the guard towers. this is the only way to the guard towers.

[Riskismy]

Well, that did clear it up. It seems I can find answers to any questions I might have now.

I think your main problem here and now is how to fit all that very complex gameplay into the map. I'm pretty sure it won't fit on regular sized maps. Maybe you could apply for one of those extra large maps, but any any case it seems to me that your primary concern right now, is to figure out if you can fit all that information on the available space.

I really like the gameplay though, and hope you see this through

[WILLIAMS5232]

this is a bunch of information for such a little space. this is 840x800 on paint, and it is very tight. after making the bonus section i see that 10 font is probably acceptable, meaning i could probably shrink the special attack section from 12 to 10. giving the gameplay area more room. there may even be a possibility of going to 8 but i have not tested it. but i think this solves the problem of how to fit all of the information on it. i am pretty sure i have covered everything.

Click image to enlarge.

so my plans would be to make the central base the only starting point for each player,

everything else would start at various neutrals,

the guard towers would be say at 4,
supply pad 1 and 3 would be at around 2 or 3
supply pad 2 would be at around 3 to 6
tech center would be at around 4
barracks would be at around 5-8
reactor would be at around 10
tank factory would be around 4-8
airfield would be around 10-15
transport plane would be say 10-30
row 1 and row 4 units would be around 3-5
row 2 and row 3 units would be around 6-10

i know there are serious issues with the artwork and design, i'm trying to learn gimp but it seems very complicated to me. especially with trying to make just basic shapes. i would of course accept any help any one might care to give in this matter, but i am prepared to go it alone if i have to. the fact that i'm recieving very little feedback is a little discouraging, but after reading through the forum i'm sensing this is normal.

thoughts....ideas.....advice.......comments........complaints.....??????

i'll accept them all.

[natty dread]

Well, the biggest issue with your map is that it is too symmetrical. Every starting position is equal. This doesn't make for good gameplay. Play a game of chinese checkers...

Then, you need to simplify your concept. Your map is full of special rules for everything, each territory needs explanation in the legend... try to represent as much as possible visually, without having to resort to huge walls of text.

Also, if you have problems fitting everything in 840x800... remember that you also have to make a small map, which is 630x600.

[WILLIAMS5232]

as far as the symmetry goes, i can't argue with it being visually symmetrical. it's kind of what i was shooting for. as for the gameplay though, there are various routes out from the starting position, this should make for interesting play, several succesful maps have one starting position, i'm trying to go for something that would incorporate more than one strategy, and hoping this would make an even better team map. as it would kind of pull all of the players in instead of just stacking on one player the whole game and going for a quick kill. the defensive positions are spread out, and attacks can come from anywhere. since i've never made a map before, it's going to be hard for me to argue with someone who has. the only thing i can see to change that will still keep me interested in going further would be to make the airplanes, tanks, and infantry territories start off as random player territories, which i do not like very much . i'm sure you understand when you criticize the base function of this map there is nothing left. i do appreciate the input tho'.

i also forgot to add in the sketch that when you lose central base, then all base territories revert to a neutral 1.

i guess you're saying that i can't make a large map huh? there is no way this will ever fit on a small one, but in the forum i read that there is small and large maps, large being 840x800. what are the rules with this. are you saying i have to make a small map before i'm eligible to make a large one?

i'm trying to figure out a way to help with the one way attack rules, but there are so many. there would be a bunch of arrows all over the place, but again, if i do away with the one-way attacks, then it takes away the concept. i'm sure i can edit down some of this in a legend, and reduce the text block, but having arrows all over the place seems a bit much.

thanks,

[natty dread]

There are two versions of every map. Go check out some of your games, there's a link to the side of the map, which says large map/small map, there you can switch the images. So in short... every map needs to have both a large and a small image.

For regular maps, the size limits are as mentioned, 840x800 and 630x600.

If the map you are making is impossible to fit within these size limits, you can apply for a supersize map. For this, you need to have a strong gameplay concept.

However... your current map you is entirely possible to fit within the regular size limits. You just need to learn some design concepts and graphical work.

Which is where the bad news start. Your current graphical skills are totally inadequate for the kind of graphical quality required from all new CC maps. You need to take time to learn the graphics work... and your current map idea is very complex. Complex maps are fine, but they are much more difficult to pull off graphically, especially for new mapmakers. I would strongly advise you to consider making something simpler and more orthodox as your first map. You would have a much easier time, you would learn all the basic graphical skills during the process, after which it would be much, much easier to continue this project you have here.

Also, if you are serious about mapmaking, particularly, about doing your own graphics, you need to stop using MS Paint right now. The sooner you start learning a proper graphics software, the better.

GIMP is a good graphics software. There are plenty of tutorials and help available for it. But again... since the map you make is very unorthodox in design, it may be hard to apply the tutorials to this project.

[WILLIAMS5232]

so if i were to use "gimp" and make an 840 by 800 map, all i need to do is shrink it to 630 by 600. i think that's how i understand it. i play all the maps on large scale with color codes because i don't see good, and i'm colorblind. is hive the largest normal map you can make without requesting a large map?

i think your advice is sound, i'm going to put this idea on the backburner and work on learning gimp for a few weeks. then try and build a small more basic map and see if i can at least get a map through the system. i was just sitting there thinking one day and this current one came in my head. i've always wanted to make one, it's just now i've got the ball rolling. i'm a surveryor by trade, and surveyors used to make maps. so i've got one thing going for me.

i just thought that there were artists sitting on their thumbs over here and were needing something to do. but now i see there are scores of ideas that come through here daily, and the best way to get it made is to put your belt and your shoes on and make one. thanks for the advice and i don't know how all this works but you can put this in the recylce bin, or delete it, or whatever. i'm done with it for now.