Fort of France(Vauban) -> V3

[DubWarrior]

V3 DRAFT
Draft 3
for comment see page 4

draft 2
I worked out the left side of the map, One camp attacking a central citadel. This is a 5 star fort but I can make it a 4-star too (vauban did it too). I can also bring in more camps. I was thinking on three.

The siege contains of mainly 3 battles.
-> First, on the left, the camp. Uniting a camp would brings a bonus (let's say 3 camp-regions +1, 5 regions +3, ...) reconstructing a riot inside.

-> Second battle: the citadel (centre) itself, with its bastions, ravelins, counterguard (CG) and central buildings. uniting pieces of the fort brings a bonus (darkgrey example on the map in the left-top: a +1 for uniting 2 buildings, can be expended by adding the rampart and the ravelin (would bring a, lets say +3) reconstructing a riot inside. darkgrey is an impassable moat.

-> Third battle: area between the camp and the citadel, and on the hills behind the camp. This battle is mainly a bombardment-battle between artillery.

In detail this crossing zone consists out of a few zones (circles), each zone containing regions.
-> The closed zone is for the miners. They are connected with the next zone (foot soldiers) and with a one way to the gate, containing a neutral +5, simulating time needed to blow up the gates. The citadel has 3 gates. The miners can be attacked by the CounterGuard soldiers (CG on the map).
-> Next zone is for foot soldiers. Foot soldiers are under attack by a one-way artillery on the bastion. They are connected with the miners and the end of the trench. They can be attacked by their own close range artillery in the back.
-> next zone is for short artillery. The can attack the foot soldiers, and are under attack by a one-way bombardment on the counterguard (CG artillery) and by their own stables in the back.
-> next zone is the outpost, containing stables, regions and the entrance to the trenches. trenches can only be accessed there. The outpost is under attack by the long-range artillery on the hills, left from the camp.
-> next zone is the camp, with 2 bridges and an impassable moat. outside the camp, on the hill is a long range artillery that can attack the camp below, the bridges and the outposts.

Specials:
-> the middle of the trenches loses -1 for each round, because they are in the line of sight of the citadels canons.
-> only way to acces the short range artillery is by capturing the stables, who have a one-way connecting to the short range artillery.
-> capturing the stables in the centre of the citadel gives acces to the counterguard artillery.
-> ravelins who have no gate, have a one-way bombardment with the counterguard. Historicaly correct. Ravelins had only walls in one direction. Once the enemy captured it, they could not hide from the canons inside the citadel.
-> trenches can only be accessed by the outpost or the foot soldiers.

Hey all,
some of you know me already from the Flanders 1302 map.
I'm currently running through some ideas and the next i like the most:

For those of you who don't know Sébastien Le Prestre (de Vauban) (1633-1707):

http://www.fortified-places.com/vauban.html

Vauban was an engineer and architect of fortifications around cities and of citadels.
His fortification exists out of a star-shaped contour, most of the time in different levels.
Most of the fortifications still exist today, most of them in France. He's considered the greatest military engineer of Europe.
This one is a nice example:


Why would a fort be a nice idea? I think because a lot of the possibilities of the XML could be used: there are a lot of One-way attacks, bombardment from canons on the wall, there are tunnels, different levels....lots and lots of possibilities. And it would be in honor of Vauban, for his tactics and ways of defense and sieging... we all use in CC
But I'm not sure and need some feedback now. Would it be nice to make a detailed map of ONE fort, where all action take place?
Or multiple fortifications, so it comes like a (bit more detailed) Feudal Epic style? The larger the environment, the less place we have to make a nice game play out of the citadels.
We could place start positions, or place citadels in a harbor...

I know these forums aren't that much visited so all feedback is welcome and necessary.
Thanks,

Dub

[natty dread]

I love it. Let's see a draft

[ghirrindin]

Fantastic. I say focus on one fort. That way you'll really be able to tease out the intricate strategies of the siege and the details in the structure's engineering.

[DubWarrior]

Fantastic. I say focus on one fort. That way you'll really be able to tease out the intricate strategies of the siege and the details in the structure's engineering.

I fully agree but any idea's on the positions of the players or an objective? Normally a fort is in hands of one nation, while the attack is done by another nation. If all players are in the same fort, it's more a riot...(a Vauban riot...sounds awesome ).
But what would be the objective: Holding several places in the fort? there's also need for an attack from outdoors...
so we need more a structure of several fortresses connected together with bridges or something...



something like this, you see a fort in the south, west and north, separated by a great river or moat from the great structure in the east. Could that be detailed enough?

cheers

[Industrial Helix]

Perhaps a 17th century version of castle lands?

[grifftron]

A more complex version of Castle Lands. Really put some thought into it and makes lots of terts. This map would be epic.

-griff

[TaCktiX]

A good idea indeed. Instead of going for the oft-used Siege mentality in some fictional area, why not a historically-based siege on one of Vauban's forts? (preferably one that survived)

[benga]

Just love those old maps.
Lets see what can you make of it!

[MarshalNey]

A good idea indeed. Instead of going for the oft-used Siege mentality in some fictional area, why not a historically-based siege on one of Vauban's forts? (preferably one that survived)

My thoughts exactly. Surely there were one or two epic seiges of a Vauban fort. Just the few seiges I have read about in the 1600's & 1700's seemed pretty spectacular. The digging of the parallel trenches, the outpost raids, the cannon exchanges, disease, etc....

[The Bison King]

Here's a crazy idea. What if everyone has an automatic start location. One person gets the fort and everyone else has to attack it.......... no there are a lot of reasons this couldn't work, but it would be cool if there was a balanced way to make a game where it was all vs. a fortified one.

Any way looks like there's a lot of potential here.

[DubWarrior]

Here's a crazy idea. What if everyone has an automatic start location. One person gets the fort and everyone else has to attack it.......... no there are a lot of reasons this couldn't work, but it would be cool if there was a balanced way to make a game where it was all vs. a fortified one.

Any way looks like there's a lot of potential here.

wow sounds great but have to think on this idea, and get some response.

I'm also in for a another round of historical gameplay, but not really for the castle lands idea.
Nothing against that map, but i would love to see a more solid gameplay.
And love those old maps too i'll check out some historic battles on a Vauban fort.
Any idea of an epic one?

cheers

[DubWarrior]

I've been thinking on the all-against-one' idea but that would make the map only suitable for single-player games. What about a terminator or even an assasin. The player in the middle of the castle would have a huge advantage. And there is already a siege map. But let's combine both ideas.

What about this, the story could be like this:
A Vauban Fortres has fallen, the enemy has breached its walls. The struggle inside the walls has already been going on for days. in the middle of the fortress different players are already fighting in some riot. More soldiers are running into the fort through its gates.
Gameplay could be like this:

The fortress bonus could be something like: 'hold 3 walls for a +4, hold 4 walls for a +6 and so on.
Or 'hold barracks and smithy for a +1. In the fortress there is some sort of small bonus so a player need to capture a large part of the fortress.
Outside the fortress there are some higher bonus regions, that are connected with the gates of the fort (eventually with a one-way through the gates)

just a thought,
cheers

Dub

[DubWarrior]

I came to the next idea:
I like the idea of "What if..." maps, such like Fractured America. After some research it became clear that the cities on borders of France were all fortified, turning France into one big citadel. freaky to see a pentagon appear, the basic shape of the citadels by vauban...it seems to be the shape of the borders of France. So "What if' France became one big citadel, with it's own (military) economy inside - historically, a fortress had its own auto-sufficient city inside with mills, barber, shop, etc. Outside, the enemy is regrouping...will the French nation be able to hold the gates closed?

little explanation:
- inside a player can get a bonus by conquering a little region (2 to 3 terr), represented by a resource (example: grain, iron, wood...). He can make more profit once a player conquer a barrack (or a smithy?) and of course capturing one of the five citadels.
- Citadels can bombard neighboring regions, inside and outside the walls.
- Fort of France can only be accessed through the 5 citadels, these are one-way tunnels.
- Outside the walls, neighboring countries (or perhaps rebelling parts of France outside the walls?) have placed camps to attack the fort. conquering these bigger regions brings a pretty high auto-deploy on the main camp, outside the reach of the bombardment.
-Paris and Bazoches can be important places...(bazoches was the castle were Vauban lived)

- could we do something with sources from rivers? If Fort of France have its own economy inside, water and sources are important.

TO DO: I definitely would like to make the walls more complex with a little more Vauban-Specialties...
based on this image:

[pamoa]

nice idea love last image
some suggestions
5 "armée" inside attacking 3 or 4 forts
forts connect along the line of defence
5 attacking powers facing 3 or 4 forts (two-way attack)
forts connect one way to some inside land
and inside land one way to "armée"
inside land/ressources connect each other

Click image to enlarge.

[army of nobunaga]

very cool

[DubWarrior]

nice idea love last image
some suggestions
5 "armée" inside attacking 3 or 4 forts
forts connect along the line of defence
5 attacking powers facing 3 or 4 forts (two-way attack)
forts connect one way to some inside land
and inside land one way to "armée"
inside land/ressources connect each other

Click image to enlarge.

ah Pamoa, glad to have you here!
You did a similar France map, nice to see some feedback of you.
I also especially like the last image
What do you mean with Armee? The whole French army is inside the French fort? the outside of the french fort exist out of citadels/cities (three or four according to you?) they are connected with a wall that a player can conquer (so can conquer from fort to another wall to another fort. Oudside there are 5 attacking powers (agreed with, I did them in the first draft). I see the one-way on my draft from the citadel to the inside fort, but what's with the one-way to the 'Armee'...where is it located, does it exist out of numberous regions? so what about the resources?
I think I get it for a small part

cheers

[pamoa]

here is what I mean
this is maybe a bit complicated
so you can remove green arrows
and make reds two-way

Click image to enlarge.

with some ideas for the inner land

Click image to enlarge.

[DubWarrior]

So, for the troops outside the walls, they need to conquer twice: fist time entering in france (you should also use those forts on the borders, white dots on your map?) second time entering the 'innerland'.
Right? I like the inside drawing and we're still close to the original idea.
well, except you make some second line of forts for the enemy. But I think that will balance nice, especially with a second wall - or something like a fast road connecting these border-forts
nice!

[pamoa]

the enemies of France should be each composed with the 3 weapons: man, horse and gun
which can directly attack 2 or 3 forts
except for England and Spain with a ship instead of the gun
and the need to go through it to attack sea forts
holding the 3 weapons would give a +1

of course all forts connect to the next

inner land will have a +1 each 3

maybe the forts or the "armées" could start neutral

[swampfox01776]

Hi I'm gonna post this as my take on Vauban and my personal Army/engineering experience...US Army 15 yrs,setting up Defense/offense,Construction Inspector...15 years...Just a basic synopsis of me..i could go on ..I am very Intrigued by the man,Vauban, and your making a map based on his ideals.to that I was so inspired I spent an hour last night looking up his history and Forts and Bio.I even wrote it here...of map ideas,scenario options..etc..but I'd logged in to play,then logged out...and then when I went to post what I'd written,forgot to save it..whew...it vanished..big time bummer.So I'm gonna start over with basic additional thoughts,my emphasis is not so much on the Writing of the program,I know nothing of that type of code, but from a Technical real world perspective paying attention to honoring the Ideals of what Vauban was, one of the Greatest,though hardly recognized,Military Offensive/Defensive Experts there ever was.
I'm not sure how far along in the developement stage you are with this map/Scenario so I'll add what I believe should be in that game..I've played risk since I was 10,back when it was a board game to finding this site a few weeks ago.I'm passionate about Hearts of Iron 1&2...but 3 is off abit.okay please don't take my ideas or suggestions wrong I'm just trying to help with honoring the Man,Vauban ,with a High class game a Ten year old can play but that will keep masters..hehehe Intriqued for hours.
I researched using various sites.....http://www.sites-vauban.org/?lang=en : http://www.sites-vauban.org/Map-of-the-12-sites . pls note on your current map layout you've switched the two forts places...{Mont-Louis and Ville De Conflent }.I also used this site with a good amount of personal Gov info.....:
http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-herita ... an.htm#map

Informative Bio of "STAR Forts" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauban_fortification

Okay why all the Bio,Fort ,Historical stuff....to me your seeking not just a game with a Star fort...but to engage the player{s} in the art of WAR...paying homage to Vauban by developing both an Offensive/Defensive Scenario.To me that means taking his Ideals..using Mountains,Hills,Forests,,,,Oceans and the Star Fort to incorperate what can be one of the greatest risk maps and games to be played.I would also add incorperating the use of Cannons,Horses and men in a unique way to this Game,which as I have looked over the " Conquer Club" site has yet to be done but would be in the traditional aspect of Risk used to help with an attack or defense.
I will send my email to your account with Further actual details of my ideas for the game.
Thank you for your efforts and time.
Happy Trails
Swamp Fox

[swampfox01776]

The " Star Fort" you posted on AUG 11th is the fort scenario/Map size with it's pertinent terrain features,or pertinent to whatever is at the other Forts..or ad din a mountain fort would be close to the size of the fort to use..maybe alittle bigger allowing for Defense placement,reinforcement spot...so making that map fit to the edges of the screen thus allowing for the "FORT" battle to happen in a more real time scenario will ,as with my other idea for the Star Fort", would allow for a realistic battle at that particular Fort...using it as you seem to be for a map with placement over it vs using it as a fort ,and showcasing what this type of fort truly is and meant to changing how Battles are fought..offensively/Defensively.To use it as an underlay to add a Risk type battle over losses it's " Uniqueness".
You have a great opportunity provide not just a nice looking map,i agree it looks nice..and your efforts are taken into my oberseravtions of what is being portrayed as the direction this { Map/Game" seem to be headed }..vs where I truly believe and think with your skills and more time could develop a great idea...Vauban the Master...using his ideas of the time in this game,as I've Pm'd you,.Just drawing on a map the STAR Fort is cool...okay.very.!!...but get outside the box....please....
This is an opportunity of a lifetime to Create a Game that thousands will not just play...but rave about as their fav....tourney's will start to see who is the Vauban Master...Skill at not just Offense or Defense but how to reinforce..with what..,horses,men,cannons...and where....
Vauban became who is was not by taking the easiest road...but by seeing what lies ahead..not just on the road or that town but the Country.
Make a Game that Exemplifies what he sought and did and showcase that.....that should be your Goal with this Game.
thank you for your time and efforts....
Happy Trails
Swamp Fox

[TaCktiX]

I like some of the first work on this. An interesting take on What If history while having some unique gameplay to boot. Can't wait for the next (more formalized) version.

[DubWarrior]

By the ideas of Swampfox, I started thinking about some special gameplay that can feature a lot of Vauban-tactics, more than just a siege. Also, some nice ideas about the importance of horses came up, so I started thinking about capturing stables or some fast moveble canons... Also the different types of canons could be nice to work with.

I was thinking about combining different maps with different scales, all in one map (a bit like those capital-details like in the new mexico map). Also an idea I've been playing with is to make a cross-cut, so we could clearly see an inside and an outside of the fort, but also a importance of the height for defenders. (so canons can attack in a one-way attackers, but attackers can't reach the canons because they are on the wall.)
Maybe the idea of the cross-cut can be on top, like a detail-map of the detailed fort-map, that can be on top of the terrain-map, which features the surrounding of the fort. (you see, 3 different scales, like one big Zoom ) This would give the player 3 ways of conquering and defending, all in the Vauban-spirit.
what do you guys think? Possible? Or return to the original Fort of France idea?
cheers,

Dub

[pamoa]

as the map with France is a bit repetitive with other France maps
maybe it's better to go more in the fort only direction
then also use the Vauban 3 circles theory about how to attack a fortification

[swampfox01776]

Bravo,Bravo..and did I mention......BRAVO.!!!!!!!!!
Yes this is the Direction this Map and Vauban Game should go..!!!! Your explanation above of what your thinking about doing is,to me, correct.Add the layering for a more Detailed "STAR Fort" battle ...with 15 or so spaces inside for the a reinforcement spots,defense positions, and 20 or more spaces around the fort/Clickout map,...with different choices vs..just getting men,allow the player to get..Horses,Different types of canons, maybe different types of men....this will be abit harder than just making a simple Map..and getting men but Trust me and the many true" time period/Risk players here, the more realistic to the time the canon's,Star Fort and overall equipment..movable canons,horses..etc are,the more people will want to play this new game with these new concepts.
One of the biggest NEW Concepts,we're suggesting, is the " Layering/Cross -cut, as you've called it, that to me should not be on the first big map..but a seperate map
as I told you,where a player can click and open that map up..of whatever Town/Star Fort" is being attacked/Defended, this will make this NEW Concept and game not just good to play but esthetically nice to look at and marvel of the graphics work and the Game play being a combination of {Attack/Defense = Strategy} that is missing in many games here.
I disagee that using the Larger France map is a bad idea...that is the reason " Vauban" made the Star Forts,to try and defend France.By making only a fort map/battle..it loses alot of the " Bigger Picture"....the 1789 France map game, is good to look at,clean...that style of Graphics/Drawing of a map from the 1700's would work great with the Vauban/France theme...not the size,the size of the France map could be @ 1/3 bigger....
To " Pomoa"..I like the map of Vauban's Defense/Attack above....can you think of ways to add that realism of the Siege into this Game..to make it realistic,look good, playable..the hardest thing to me is...the " STAR Fort" was designed NOT to be lost,or Sieged..so designing this game to allow for Different types of Equipment,the canons,horses..ladders.? And yes Movable canons...to allow for battlefield realism..and to allow the Players..to choose what to reinforce with..where by the situation dictates.As we all know, attacking a Fort odds/MEN/Equipment need to be a minimum of 3-1...under good circumstances...Cold,Snow Rain Weather,long supply lines,terrain,..other factors aside.So working on the Design is KEY to make it not too cluttered looking,keeping important INFO and pictures of the vaious men,horses,canons,equipment..terrain features..ETc..in the Booklet/Strategy guides that are now being developed for other games,that way the Board/Game play is larger allowing for more detail...right.?I would also add the during reinforcements on risk..thought in this Game should be made to some facts....men,horses,canons should not be allowed to travel more than a normal amount of Travel in a day..in the current Risk scenario's..men can be reinforced around the entire World...or from one side of a map to another...vs having a " Travel Modifier" included in the CODE and Reinforcement option of the Game to make the realsim of not just the seige battles better as,the player will have to Plan/Strategize how far from their particular reinforcement point,the starting FORT.? to the new battle is,this will add a new level of " BATTLE/Strategy realism as is the case with real battles..supply of the equipment isn't instantaneous....thus the effects of Rolling Dice with large numbers..and conquering with suicidal techniques or larger number techniques as is the case with many Current Risk Game vs having the player think about How long it will take to reinforce the Star Fort or Battle for the lands in between the forts....actual Strategy.!!! so say having the horses,men,canons..etc. be able to move,depends on terrains..on a road 3 spots..men 2 ,canons 2 spots.but over mountains,rivers,forest, subtract one movement spot,could be added into the code of" Game piece Movement Modifer"...Add some of this type of Realism also to this game...and the Stacking aspect needs to be added,where by men,horses,canons form a better ARMY than horses,canons or men alone..but that is the players choice,situation dictates.It'll depend on what the possible next battle is..a Siege,Defense,Atack..open Field,forest..or at the Star Fort.
As I mentioned make the first "BETA" with two forts....to allow for rethinking How the Game vs Code are doing..and we can ALL talk and make suggestions to what will or willnot work..what can/ cannot be done..what to add,takeout...or change alittle to make the Game not too hard for an Attacker..not too easy for to defend...though wasn't that Vauban's intent...hehehe make it so no one wanted to Attack it.? well for the purposes of making this game we need someone to try....and sometimes be successful....ouch....
I am very glad your allowing me to help and offer suggesitons...Thank You.!
I have no idea why my pm is not working,..leave longer messages here or on my Wall...I did PM..MR Benn suggesting that the new " Siege" Game developer take a look here and try to help with the Siege aspects of this game...
I truly believe if the community get's involved with this ..Pomoa,DUB..MR BENN...and the many others with various skills in the ART's of WAR..Attack,Defend..Equipment.Risk/Strategy...if you get your developer freinds to help with this project..and the Foundry involved...this can be a Risk Classic....to me call it.........Vauban the Master " Star Fort" edition.
to ..DUB...your now on the correct path with this Game and the 1700's Style Designs need to be incorporated...to add to the overal look...the Clickout maps are key,I'm not sure,as i mentioned I can't write Code...how you'll acheive that...but I'm sure you can.the suggestion I made today to take into account.." Movement" vs being able to reinforce across an entire map will,to me, add another aspect of realism to battles...and adding in spots inside the forts where the player chooses what to reinforce with,men,canons,horses...the current or future battle..Offensive/Defensive@ Star Fort...or open field ..will make the player think and give them options from which to resupply...then add in the Travel time...vs instantaneous reinforcements...thus if BAd dice rolls are encountered but a player has a good Strategy the entire Battle isn't lost...as I've found happens here alot...I've had odds of 8-1..etc and lost a battle becuase of bad dice...okay.....but with this new game ODDS of Attack/Defend will be helped by " Terrain"...to some degree,as in Real battles.like inside the fort is safer than an open field...those ODDS also need to be worked ,in the beta to determine how much Attacking/Defending add's/Hurts...and the odds wil be adjusted,automatically by the computer" Code" before the dice are rolled...
okay I got other things to do...please keep this going with the...Vauban the Master.." Star Fort .." edition, in this direction and you'll surely be very satisfied with the final game.
Sincerely
Swamp Fox