Conquer Club

As promised going back some time, as Japan is finishing up in the Final Forge I've begun work on my next project of a map. I full blown baseball stadium. We are very preliminary at this point, but I wanted to get some opinions generally on gameplay as I fine the direction for the graphics. The basic design of the stadium is based on the 70's era cookie cutter multi-purpose stadiums(i.e. The Astrodome, Three River's Stadium, Busch Stadium, Riverfront Park, etc.) mostly because these stadiums were symmetrical and lend themselves best to good game play. Specifically Veteran's Stadium in Philadelphia was my inspiration. (In fact I can think of maybe 2 people on this site that might recognize the thing that sets this apart as the Vet currently...) Don't get overly pissy at me if you think this map should be made to replicate stadiums like Fenway Park, Wrigley Field or Yankee Stadium. These stadiums are MLB shrines and as such could attract unwanted attention in a copyright sense. The use of this stadium type was used all over the place which allows me to play with the graphics and outlines and be outside the issue of copyright since there are a ton of all stadiums using this basic design, AND most of them are gone at this point.(Only one left I can think of is Qualcomm Stadium-Jack Murphy Stadium in San Diego and its only used for football right now)

Anyways look at my plans below here and tell what you think.



Territory plans:

Each player on the field: 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, RF, CF, LF, P, C
Each base: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Home
The Outfield: Left, Left-Center, Center, Right Center, Right
Bullpens: Home and Away
Dugouts: Home and Away
Batter: right and left side of the plate(although I may just have one batter)
Grandstands: 40-60 territories

Gameplay:
Grandstand areas of the same color will be able to attack adjacent territories of the same color.
A stairway/tunnel icon will indicate connection to others with the same icon. This will allow movement between colored grand stand areas.
I'm figuring the bonus structure for the Grandstands will just be the standard territory bonus, which works out nicely when you think about having more and more of the crowd get behind you, no "bonuses" for holding certain sections or color groups. Maybe even a increase/decreased adjustment based on the color of the stands you have. Like every 2 yellow territories gets you 1 army, since usually the most rabid fans are in the cheap seats, while the annoying cell phone talking fans are in the closer more expensive seats....(see: "HEY! look I'm on TV whenever a right handed batter is up!" )
The outfield should connect to adjacent fields.
Bases one-way attack each other in order - 1st->2nd->3rd->Home
Infielders can attack adjacent bases
Batter(s) can bombard all fielders and field territories and 1 way attack to 1st Base.
The fielders will give bonuses for common double-plays (6-4-3, Around the Horn, Outfielder-cutoff man-catcher)
Connections between the dugout, bullpen and the pitcher.
Possible victory condition of holding all the bases and the batter(Grand Slam?)

Questions:
How to connect the field and the rest of the stadium?
Is this getting to complex already?
Give me your suggestions, please!

Well, since cairns isn't going to finish the cricket map, there probably is a niche for a sports map in CC.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the concept. But there almost certainly are those who will love it. Most of them American, probably... Baseball isn't very big outside the US.

But hey, if you can make the gameplay interesting, it might attract others than Americans & baseball fans. Who knows.

How to connect the field and the rest of the stadium?

I'm not very familiar with baseball, but isn't it a home run when the batter hits the ball in the audience?

Thus: Batter can bombard the audience

And the audience can have crazy folks who want to storm the field naked, so you can have a few of these at the edges of the field...

Then, perhaps the coach can access the audience by a regular attack...

Anyway, good luck with your project.

Hey natty! Where is the "who wants to conquer a baseball stadium" quote?

joking natty...

I think this would be a good idea, i like what natty said on having the batter be able to bombard or even attack the people in the stands... batter would have to be a crucial thing to hold... also all bases should be able to attack eachother, same with outfielders being able to attack all bases and short stop, pitcher could attack all bases. And so on... don't forget the hotdog ladies and popcorn guys... oh and beer dudes....

i dont think the coach should be able to access the stands tho... that wouldn't make sense to me... IMO of course...

ps.. isn't there already a baseball map in the making?... maybe i am wrong?

-griff

There should be some sort of objective or something to try to make a home run. There could be high killer neutrals between each base causing you to have to move from base to base slowly, and territories outside of each base can bombard the base to try to keep you from making a home run.

Bullpens attack pitching mound?

Realistically the best way to connect the seats to the field would either be two small paths near the batting circles or through the dugouts which would lead under the stadium to the grandstand.

maybe if you own all the bases including home base you win?

natty_dread wrote:Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the concept. But there almost certainly are those who will love it. Most of them American, probably... Baseball isn't very big outside the US.

Hey, that's only from a European perspective. Actually, I think the World Baseball Classic proved that baseball is enjoyed worldwide, most notably in SE Asia, North America and South America. In Japan the sport is arguably more popular than in the US. Just look at the rosters on any MLB team and you're guaranteed to have a player who doesn't speak English as his native language.

I'm obviously a basefall afficianado but would not term myself a 'fan' (as in short for fanatic)... and unfortunately I'm not too keen on the idea unless the map develops more theme than just naming the positions and key scoring landmarks, and then emphasizing random events with bombardments.

Sure, the home run is well known and can change a game, but why emphasize that over, say, a double play or even a triple play? What about the value of a strikeout or pop-up; or a walk; or a stolen base (including the hit-and-run or suicide squeeze); or a single, double or triple? Can we really say that a perfect game (no-hitter and no walks, for those who don't know) is less dramatic than a game with 10 home runs?

I think, that instead of focusing on a limited sample of baseball events, you should focus on the more general drama of the people involved, like the pitching staff, the lineup, the bench, the managers, broadcasters, and stadium staff, and the different fans.

Along these lines, several things strike me:
1) Baseball, like all pro team sports, is a competition between two teams. Although you've got dugouts, I'm not getting a good Home team vs. Away team feel from your concept. I think this could be developed more or even become the central idea (see Arms Race or Civil War as examples of two-faction maps).

2) The connection between the fans and the players is clear to me: fan excitement spurs on the success of the appropriate team, and the success of the team spurs on the excitement of the approprate fan base. The opposite is true too- success of the opposing teams disheartens fans and opposing fans annoy/harass the opposing team.

If you develop the map according to the 2-faction concept, you could have the players and fans connect via some abstract territory called "Charge!" or "Rally Monkey" or whatever baseball term seems best. Then, a team could connect with opposing fans by simply attacking the opposing team players. The fans could also connect with opposing team players via bombardment, perhaps through another abstract territory called "Boo-birds" or "Heckling" etc.

3) Thinking about team owners and such, it occurs to me that winning a baseball game might not be the actual object. What if it was making money? That could broaden the appeal of this map to non-baseball fans like Natty

Anyway, those are my initial thoughts, hope it wasn't too long-winded....

In Japan the sport is arguably more popular than in the US

I'm well aware of the fact... they even make animes about baseball!

As a trivial fact which you as a baseball fan may find interesting: here in Finland we have our own "baseball" with very different rules from the american game. To mention a few, the bases go zig-zag across the field, instead of around the field in a square... the pitcher throws the ball straight up instead of towards the batter, who hits the ball when it falls down... Ain't it funny?

Imaweasel wrote:maybe if you own all the bases including home base you win?

RedBaron0 wrote:Possible victory condition of holding all the bases and the batter(Grand Slam?)

Although I may have to just do the 4 bases, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Home.

natty_dread wrote:Batter can bombard the audience

That's an idea I thought about too, its possible, I just don't want to make the batter too powerful. That might make that a good spot to put a killer neutral, to replicate the change of the batter.

Beckytheblondie wrote:Bullpens attack pitching mound?

Dugout calls the bullpen to get a relief pitcher ready and then takes over for the pitcher on the mound.

Beckytheblondie wrote:Realistically the best way to connect the seats to the field would either be two small paths near the batting circles or through the dugouts which would lead under the stadium to the grandstand.

There has to be a realistic way you can attack from the stadium to the field, otherwise the strategy becomes clear the field and you win because the players in the stands can't attack back... How about the "homerun throw back?" It's a Wrigley Field tradition, but is followed in a lot of stadiums that when opposing teams hit homeruns the ball is thrown back onto the field. Could do all the outfield sections can 1 way attack the closest outfield territory?

MarshalNey wrote:Along these lines, several things strike me:
1) Baseball, like all pro team sports, is a competition between two teams. Although you've got dugouts, I'm not getting a good Home team vs. Away team feel from your concept. I think this could be developed more or even become the central idea (see Arms Race or Civil War as examples of two-faction maps).

2) The connection between the fans and the players is clear to me: fan excitement spurs on the success of the appropriate team, and the success of the team spurs on the excitement of the appropriate fan base. The opposite is true too- success of the opposing teams disheartens fans and opposing fans annoy/harass the opposing team.

If you develop the map according to the 2-faction concept, you could have the players and fans connect via some abstract territory called "Charge!" or "Rally Monkey" or whatever baseball term seems best. Then, a team could connect with opposing fans by simply attacking the opposing team players. The fans could also connect with opposing team players via bombardment, perhaps through another abstract territory called "Boo-birds" or "Heckling" etc.

3) Thinking about team owners and such, it occurs to me that winning a baseball game might not be the actual object. What if it was making money? That could broaden the appeal of this map to non-baseball fans like Natty

Very good stuff Marshall, I was thinking perhaps that I take the little guys off the field and just have the positions as territories on the field. In front of each dugout I can put 9 starting positions each. They can't attack each other, but can one way attack either of the batter's boxes(left or right) which allows you to take your turn at bat, attack the field and then the batter's boxes would be killer neutrals. I may have to have the stands territory behind each dugout but a large neutral block that can attack the players as a "heckler" That way there is a way to get to the players on the field, but the main way to win the game will be to get enough armies to hold the objective. (all the bases)

Lots of stuff to think about guys, thanks! keep it all coming!

I think the game should be focused on the baseball game, & not include the seats.
It might be hard moving from field to seats, & I think it would be more interesting on the field.

I think all the suggestions can be implemented quite easily! I agree that you should have all positions attack each other like in a real game. The batter can attack all positions EXCEPT home plate.

What do you think of this idea?



Each person gets there own coach box as a starting position, from the coach box they can attack home base or p1.
from p1 you can attack F5, F6, or F7 (p1 throws the ball the batter hits it to F5, F6, or F7) from there you can attack F1-4 and then bombard the bases.

From home base you just try to work your way from base to base, when you make it to the end you can attack the home run territory and hold it to win.
Between each base are 3 killer neutrals, so you can't stop attacking till you make it to the next base or you will loose your troops/players.

So you basically take turns offense & defense, you realize someone is almost around you try to stop him, and when you find a good time you try to go around.

If I end up just doing the field itself without the stands(or most of them) I 'd have more stuff there, any place on the field you'd ever likely heard of in a ball game.... the "hole," foul ground, umpires, 1st and 3rd base coaches boxes, warning track, etc...

I'm guessing this should be resolved first. Poll started.

Make the entire stadium, plus the fans entrance, and the ticket store. That's why I voted other.

This is just my opinion but I think it should sort of follow the rules of base ball since its a base ball map, I think this could be an interesting game. Another conquer everything type of map can be done on any other map.

There was thought to have a kind of scoreboard on the map... but the XML doesn't really allow for an increasing tally.(like rounding the bases) That could be really-REALLY cool if the map could have a set number of rounds(9 say) and each time you held home plate at the beginning of your turn, you'd earn a run. Most runs at the end of 9 rounds(innings) wins the game.

Still we can try and replicate winning a game with a grand slam. (all the bases and the batter, maybe the pitcher too) And make is so the best course to win the game is through the objective instead of conquering everyone else.

There is SOOOO much that could be added to this, and with only a limited space to use on the map somethings will have to be left off. Having gates and ticket booths would be nice, but ultimately will likely have to be left off.

Sounds like the Stadium will win out, I'll get this up to speed when I get a chance.

Awesome idea! I have felt for some time that CC was lacking sports themed maps. And as much as I would love to see Fenway (huge Sox fan) I understand the benefits of doing a generic stadium. I have spent the last hour or two thinking about this map, so here are my suggestions:

Keeping to the theme of baseball-
Since we are talking baseball, we want two teams, where one team is on offense (wants to score a run) and another is on defense (wants to prevent the other team from scoring a run). Along this simple theme, I agree that the objective should be to hold the batter, the three bases, and home plate (different from the batter). These "objective" territories can only attack counterclockwise, where home plate cannot attack anyone (i.e. Alcatraz in SF). The defense (i.e. the nine positions) can bombard various bases (eg. left bombards 2b and 3b, etc. see below for more detailed suggestions), and attack neighboring positions.

Logistics-
Now, getting onto the field is very difficult (just ask any autograph seeking fan), so I think all players should start in the stands and work their way in (a la Atlantis). However, I think a cool twist should be that once you are on the field, you cannot get out. This would make for unique gameplay as players would have to decide "do I dare commit XX troops now or will that leave my outer troops too vulnerable?" A similar strategy would be required when advancing around the basepaths.

I have drawn a quick schematic illustrating what I am thinking. Please note: I have not drawn everything! Infielders would also be able to bombard adjacent bases and attack adjacent fielders, outfielders can attack adjacent outfielders, etc. Also, the black arrows indicate bombarding, the red arrows are one way attacks, and the blue arrows are two way attacks.



The advantages of this proposal are

• It keeps to the theme of baseball where there are two distinct teams that do very different things.
• There is a clear cut objective that works well with the theme. The objective is both unique (e.g. home plate cannot attack anything) and hard to hold (many territs. can bombard the bases).
• Play is relatively balanced, with 4 ways of getting on the field. Each dugout is equal distance from the batter, which is the beginning of the objective. Adjusting neutral counts can make it just as easy to get to the batter form the outfield entrances, although the path might be longer.
• It offers unique gameplay, where players begin in the stands, build their army, and then must decide when to commit to pursuing the objective. (Mr. Benn, I like the "every two yellow gets one bonus." maybe you only start in the orange (as a fair-weather fan) and can expand to the "real fan" section?) Timing appears to be very important in this map, and I think there could be a number of different winning strategies.

Of course, these are all just suggestions. Mainly, I thought it would be helpful to put some arrows on the figure you gave so people can start to get a visual feel for how the gameplay will work. I greatly look forward to the development of this map, and I look forward to adding my two cents at every step of the way.

-carlpgoodrich

Edit: a few things I maybe didn't make clear about my suggestions. The two red circles are the batter and the batters box. The two dugouts, the left bullpen and the streaking fan would be accessible from the stands.

I can't see the picture you posted.

Humm, it shows up for me... What is the best way to post pictures? What I did was upload the pic to google docs and then copied a link to it. I don't really have any other place online to post pictures. Is there a way to upload pictures directly to CC?

You can create an account on http://photobucket.com/ thats what I use.
I don't think theres a way to upload pictures directly to CC.

Thanks Thomassaurus. Did that work? (I edited my post above.)

Yep, I see it. I like the idea.

I voted entire stadium... please no streaking fan... lame... stadium without streaker... not lame IMO

-griff

grifftron wrote:I voted entire stadium... please no streaking fan... lame... stadium without streaker... not lame IMO

Thats one reason I think it should just be the base ball field, can't really connect the stadium to field without streaking fan. Just wouldn't make sense.