The War of the Triple Crown

[tkr4lf]

I was browsing google images for good city icons and found this.



Now, this isn't really that great, and I doubt I would use it, but, I have a question about this sort of stuff. To use an image from the internet, do you have to seek permission to use it? Since the maps are considered commercial use, I would think that you would need to, but I'm not sure on this. Anybody know about this sort of thing?

[natty dread]

To use an image from the internet, do you have to seek permission to use it?

Depends on the copyright of the image. If the image is public domain, or free for any kind of derivative use, you can use it. If the image is copyrighted, or free for personal use only, then you need to ask the image author for permission.

[tkr4lf]

Ok. Maybe I'll just try to draw up my own image for the cities to avoid all that jazz. I'm kind of lazy and don't wanna deal with it honestly.

[whitestazn88]

dude... the first version of the map was better than the 2nd version, which was just a shitload of territs placed in huge clumps with a city/castle/whatever thrown into whatever. I'd say you're better off pursuing your original idea, but with maybe a few more territs and more thought into the placement/connections between territs/bonus regions. just my 2 cents though. i think that you're letting natty make a map vicariously through you. go with your original plans and see where it goes. i'd rather have creative control and get pissed and drop the idea after 2 months than let the foundry tell me exactly what to do every step of the way.

[natty dread]

i'd rather have creative control and get pissed and drop the idea after 2 months than let the foundry tell me

No offense man, but that's fucking terrible advice to give to new mapmakers.

[whitestazn88]

i'd rather have creative control and get pissed and drop the idea after 2 months than let the foundry tell me

No offense man, but that's fucking terrible advice to give to new mapmakers.

He had a solid idea, but had yet to implement many of the stories and gameplay options he wanted to. Yeah, you helped him with gimp, but the map is nothing at all like his original proposal. He's not even making a map of what he wanted, at this point it's just a bullshit made up map that meets the "foundry guidelines" that so far have been mostly proposed by you. My only advice was that he should stick to his guns. Maybe once he learns his way around gimp he should reintroduce this map on his own again, with the improved graphics, and a better way of integrating his story, but the massive increase in territs, then decrease, was all based on your suggestions. I mean, it's not like I have any experience in the map foundry, so I may be wrong, but like I said, just my 2 cents.

[natty dread]

[Bruceswar]

i'd rather have creative control and get pissed and drop the idea after 2 months than let the foundry tell me

No offense man, but that's fucking terrible advice to give to new mapmakers.

He had a solid idea, but had yet to implement many of the stories and gameplay options he wanted to. Yeah, you helped him with gimp, but the map is nothing at all like his original proposal. He's not even making a map of what he wanted, at this point it's just a bullshit made up map that meets the "foundry guidelines" that so far have been mostly proposed by you. My only advice was that he should stick to his guns. Maybe once he learns his way around gimp he should reintroduce this map on his own again, with the improved graphics, and a better way of integrating his story, but the massive increase in territs, then decrease, was all based on your suggestions. I mean, it's not like I have any experience in the map foundry, so I may be wrong, but like I said, just my 2 cents.

His idea is still solid and his, but he has to make it work for CC. There are 100's of ideas I would like to see happen, but they just will not work for CC.

[natty dread]

i'd rather have creative control and get pissed and drop the idea after 2 months than let the foundry tell me exactly what to do every step of the way.

Seriously, I just can't get over how absolutely horrible advice this is to give to anyone.

You know, during the time I've been in the foundry... I've seen a lot of people who do exactly that what you are saying in that part of your post that I quoted. They come in with little to no experience in either gameplay or graphics design, then start working on a map, but refuse to compromise anywhere, even when more experienced people give good reasons why something won't work... refuse to listen when people give suggestions to change something, and vehemently "stick to their guns", even when they don't really understand the basic concepts of gameplay design. Eventually, the foundry regulars who spend their time trying to help new mapmakers develop their skills, get tired of their advice not being listened, and the new mapmaker-to-be's project is forgotten, buried within that huge sea of failed map attempts...

I'm not sure if you realize it, but that is exactly what you are suggesting tkr4lf to do. Which is a fucking horrible suggestion.

I'm suggesting that he does the complete opposite: spend this time learning as much as he can, and experimenting with his map, honing his skills in graphics and gameplay design. Even if this particular map idea fails - and I don't think that it will, if he really wants to put in the effort to develop it - but even if it does, then he will have gained valuable experience that he can use in another map project.

[tkr4lf]

dude... the first version of the map was better than the 2nd version, which was just a shitload of territs placed in huge clumps with a city/castle/whatever thrown into whatever. I'd say you're better off pursuing your original idea, but with maybe a few more territs and more thought into the placement/connections between territs/bonus regions. just my 2 cents though. i think that you're letting natty make a map vicariously through you. go with your original plans and see where it goes. i'd rather have creative control and get pissed and drop the idea after 2 months than let the foundry tell me exactly what to do every step of the way.

Well, I mean, this still is my original idea. It's changed and evolved with the help of the people here in the foundry and from my own tinkering with ideas. I understand what you're saying, but I realized when I decided to go with this that I would have to compromise and change it up a little bit in order to make it work. That first map I made was a piece of crap. Graphically at least. Trust me, if I could make a map that had the same layout as that, I would. But it is too wide to have that much ocean in there. Yeah, I wanted the different empires further apart, but to make it work for a CC map, they have to be closer together or I would have to make all the land much smaller. I'm ok with the change there, as I'd rather have more land and less sea than less land and more sea.

As for the territ increase, that was my idea. I like the idea of having a big map with tons of territories. But, I understand that not everyone is like that, and I'm not making a map just for myself, I'm making it for the CC community, so it needs to conform at least somewhat to what the greater community would enjoy. So when it was suggested that I make less territories, I just took it as the advice of a seasoned map maker. It's not a big deal. Eventually, I would like to make a really big map with tons of territories, but maybe my first map isn't the best time, due to my lack of experience.

i'd rather have creative control and get pissed and drop the idea after 2 months than let the foundry tell me exactly what to do every step of the way.

Seriously, I just can't get over how absolutely horrible advice this is to give to anyone.

You know, during the time I've been in the foundry... I've seen a lot of people who do exactly that what you are saying in that part of your post that I quoted. They come in with little to no experience in either gameplay or graphics design, then start working on a map, but refuse to compromise anywhere, even when more experienced people give good reasons why something won't work... refuse to listen when people give suggestions to change something, and vehemently "stick to their guns", even when they don't really understand the basic concepts of gameplay design. Eventually, the foundry regulars who spend their time trying to help new mapmakers develop their skills, get tired of their advice not being listened, and the new mapmaker-to-be's project is forgotten, buried within that huge sea of failed map attempts...

I'm not sure if you realize it, but that is exactly what you are suggesting tkr4lf to do. Which is a fucking horrible suggestion.

I'm suggesting that he does the complete opposite: spend this time learning as much as he can, and experimenting with his map, honing his skills in graphics and gameplay design. Even if this particular map idea fails - and I don't think that it will, if he really wants to put in the effort to develop it - but even if it does, then he will have gained valuable experience that he can use in another map project.

I plan on sticking this out for as long as I can. I can't gaurantee that I will be able to finish it, but that will not be from me just giving up. There may be certain circumstances in the near future where I will not be around much anymore, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. For now, I plan to finish this map. With that said, I am kind of taking my time on it. Learning GIMP is a real bitch, as I'm not exactly inclined to this sort of thing. I find I can work on the map for a while, but then I need some breaks from it. It gets tiresome.

But anyway, to get this thread back on track...

No, that's a lot better, gameplay-wise and graphically.

Now you should start thinking about the theme and how to implement it into the gameplay. Currently, all you have are the territories... and some bonus areas. But you also have a story for this map, and a plain, standard gameplay doesn't necessarily reflect the story the best...

I'm kind of stuck here on the random drop/conquest type map decision. I mean, I kind of want it to be a random drop map, where everybody would have as close to equal as possible opportunities to get established in any of the empires, but at the same time, I see how making it a conquest style map, ala Fuedal War, would probably better implement the theme into the gameplay.

The biggest problem I could see with making set starting positions and making everything else neutral would be the inequality in the different empires. I mean, one has 4 regions, one has 5, and one has 6. The one with 6 regions, the yellow empire, is mostly made up of smaller bonus areas. The one with 5, the red empire, is mostly made up of larger bonus areas. So, unlike Fuedal War, it wouldn't really be even.

Now, one possible solution I can think of is to get rid of the bonus areas. Make it all just regular land. No different colored land anyway. Maybe then I would do some map-like graphics on the land, showing deserts or forrests, plains and hilly regions, etc. Then the only real bonuses would be city bonuses. Instead of making just two cities per bonus area, I could put tons of cities spread throughout all the empires. Maybe something like +2 for the first city, +1 for each city after that. Maybe higher. That would depend on how many cities I would put into the map.

I would still want one region-type bonus, but for the empires. Once a person holds all of one empire, then a large bonus should be granted. For the blue empire, something like +15. For the red empire, something like +20. For the yellow empire, something like +25. These are just random numbers I'm throwing out. Some careful consideration for gameplay and balance could be done here.

Then, once a person owns a whole empire and the Imperial Palace island(not just the palace, the whole 4 territ island), then a very big bonus should be granted. Something like +30 for the blue empire and the imperial isle, +40 for the red empire and the imperial isle, and +50 for the yellow empire and the imperial isle.

To offset this, each starting place (which I could make a castle or a major city with the other cities being minor cities, I don't know, something) would receive a hefty autodeploy and each city would receive a minor-to-mid level autodeploy.



This is honestly the only way I see using starting positions and making this a conquest type map being fair at all. Any other way I can think of puts too much advantage on certain starting positions.

Otherwise, we could just go with a random drop and go with the two cities per bonus region. But I don't this really reflects the theme so well. The starting position/conquest type gameplay would reflect the theme.

Thoughts on this? I'd like as many people's opinion on this as possible. This map will be for everyone, so I'd like a lot of suggestions, ideas, opinions, etc.

[natty dread]

I'm kind of stuck here on the random drop/conquest type map decision. I mean, I kind of want it to be a random drop map, where everybody would have as close to equal as possible opportunities to get established in any of the empires, but at the same time, I see how making it a conquest style map, ala Fuedal War, would probably better implement the theme into the gameplay.

The biggest problem I could see with making set starting positions and making everything else neutral would be the inequality in the different empires. I mean, one has 4 regions, one has 5, and one has 6. The one with 6 regions, the yellow empire, is mostly made up of smaller bonus areas. The one with 5, the red empire, is mostly made up of larger bonus areas. So, unlike Fuedal War, it wouldn't really be even.

Well, there are some options here. You could do a mixed drop like Third crusades... ie. have starting positions, but the rest of the territories start with random drop instead of neutral.

An other option is simply finding a way to balance the areas so that none of them gives an advantage... it's not the easiest thing ever invented but it can be done. For example, one area would give more bonus but is harder to expand from, one would give a lower initial bonus but would have more opportunities for grabbing additional bonuses, and so on...

Or you could just do a random drop. A random drop does not mean that thematic elements can't be used. For example, look at the gameplay IH made for our Korea map here. It all starts random, but it still has a strong theme.

one possible solution I can think of is to get rid of the bonus areas. Make it all just regular land. No different colored land anyway. Maybe then I would do some map-like graphics on the land, showing deserts or forrests, plains and hilly regions, etc. Then the only real bonuses would be city bonuses. Instead of making just two cities per bonus area, I could put tons of cities spread throughout all the empires. Maybe something like +2 for the first city, +1 for each city after that. Maybe higher. That would depend on how many cities I would put into the map.

This could also be an interesting option. You could also mix it up by having villages, towns, cities, capitals, each having a different value...

I would still want one region-type bonus, but for the empires. Once a person holds all of one empire, then a large bonus should be granted. For the blue empire, something like +15. For the red empire, something like +20. For the yellow empire, something like +25. These are just random numbers I'm throwing out. Some careful consideration for gameplay and balance could be done here.

Well... these kind of large "superbonuses" don't usually come into play until there's 2-3 players left on the map, so they would be an end-game feature.

Then, once a person owns a whole empire and the Imperial Palace island(not just the palace, the whole 4 territ island), then a very big bonus should be granted. Something like +30 for the blue empire and the imperial isle, +40 for the red empire and the imperial isle, and +50 for the yellow empire and the imperial isle.

Maybe make it a victory condition instead?

[tkr4lf]

one possible solution I can think of is to get rid of the bonus areas. Make it all just regular land. No different colored land anyway. Maybe then I would do some map-like graphics on the land, showing deserts or forrests, plains and hilly regions, etc. Then the only real bonuses would be city bonuses. Instead of making just two cities per bonus area, I could put tons of cities spread throughout all the empires. Maybe something like +2 for the first city, +1 for each city after that. Maybe higher. That would depend on how many cities I would put into the map.

This could also be an interesting option. You could also mix it up by having villages, towns, cities, capitals, each having a different value...

I really like this idea. In fact, the more I think about it, the more it grows on me. Abandon the different bonus regions and just have towns, villages, cities, etc. Capital's could be the starting point. It would be sort of like Pelo War.

The idea you had regarding a Third Crusade-type setup is interesting, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of all neutrals except the starting points.

The biggest obstacle here will be my poor artist skills. I imagine it will be difficult for me to properly do the graphics for different geographical areas. But, there could be deserts, forrests, rainforrests/jungles, hilly regions, plains, grasslands, etc. I think it could make the map look really nice, if done correctly.

I would still want one region-type bonus, but for the empires. Once a person holds all of one empire, then a large bonus should be granted. For the blue empire, something like +15. For the red empire, something like +20. For the yellow empire, something like +25. These are just random numbers I'm throwing out. Some careful consideration for gameplay and balance could be done here.

Well... these kind of large "superbonuses" don't usually come into play until there's 2-3 players left on the map, so they would be an end-game feature.

So does this mean that I should wait on this idea? Because I really do like it and would like to see it implemented. The whole idea behind the map is to take over the different empires and unite them under one banner once again, so it would make sense that once a complete empire is taken, there should be a large boon to the holder's military/resources. The numbers may be a bit high, I'm not sure on that. But I would really like this idea implemented.

So, are you saying I should wait on this part and maybe try to implement it later? Or just commenting that it would be an endgame feature?

Then, once a person owns a whole empire and the Imperial Palace island(not just the palace, the whole 4 territ island), then a very big bonus should be granted. Something like +30 for the blue empire and the imperial isle, +40 for the red empire and the imperial isle, and +50 for the yellow empire and the imperial isle.

Maybe make it a victory condition instead?

Well, I like the idea of having it to where holding the Imperial Isle and something else, be it a certain percentage of the population (towns, villages, cities, capitals) or 2/3's of the map or whatever, is a victory condition. But I also think there should be an extra bonus gained from holding one of the empires and the Imperial Isle, for the same reasons as above. It would really fit the theme and be a cool way to implement it into the gameplay.

The theme is that of conquering the empires, and uniting them. So, capturing the Imperial Isle when you have already conquered and united a whole empire would be a huge boost, even if only for propaganda purposes. But per the story, the Imperial Isle contains the left over Imperial Gaurd and the vast stockpiled resources and riches left behind, so it should grant some sort of extra bonus. It could be a fixed bonus, regardless of empire held, but I like the idea of a different bonus for a different empire. Holding the blue empire would be easier than holding the yellow empire, just do to size.

So, I definitely like the idea of having it as a victory condition, but I really want to see it as a bonus as well.




And on top of all this, I want the Imperial Palace to contain a hefty autodeploy as well. That just makes sense. It should be relatively easy to hold once taken, but hard to take initially.

Thoughts?

[natty dread]

So, are you saying I should wait on this part and maybe try to implement it later? Or just commenting that it would be an endgame feature?

I'm saying it would be hard to hold those bonuses, until there's only a few players left and each has secured a large patch of land.

so, I definitely like the idea of having it as a victory condition, but I really want to see it as a bonus as well.
And on top of all this, I want the Imperial Palace to contain a hefty autodeploy as well.

Well... that's a lot of features for one region... but I guess it could work.

Ok, how about you put all these things on the map, it's a bit hard to think of the map features without seeing them on a map...

[tkr4lf]

So, are you saying I should wait on this part and maybe try to implement it later? Or just commenting that it would be an endgame feature?

I'm saying it would be hard to hold those bonuses, until there's only a few players left and each has secured a large patch of land.

so, I definitely like the idea of having it as a victory condition, but I really want to see it as a bonus as well.
And on top of all this, I want the Imperial Palace to contain a hefty autodeploy as well.

Well... that's a lot of features for one region... but I guess it could work.

Ok, how about you put all these things on the map, it's a bit hard to think of the map features without seeing them on a map...

To the first thing...it will only be hard to conquer all of the land in each empire. The cool thing about this map is, once you hold all of one empire, you only have to defend it from two places...the island chains(which i've named MB1,2,3 on my map, for Military Base, I figured that simplified it from having them be different things).

But I agree, it will be hard to take a whole empire, as it should be. And this type of bonus is more for standard games anyway, it would be very difficult to get this bonus in a team game.

To the second thing...Ok. Let me get to work on the map. I guess first thing will be to remove all the color from the land areas, and for now I guess just make them a neutral color. I can work on the graphics for that part of the map a bit later. I need to do the impassables, make the villages, towns, etc. on the map, and put in the palace. I guess I could start working on a legend as well.

Any thoughts on types of impassables and how to make them look decent. I know your tutorial has info about mountains, but what about rivers and trees. I tried fooling around with some rivers, but they didn't really look right at all. Any suggestions for this? Or will some of this be in part 2b of the tutorial?

[natty dread]

I usually do rivers by simply cutting a river-shaped piece off the land area, so the ocean layer shows through.

[tkr4lf]

I usually do rivers by simply cutting a river-shaped piece off the land area, so the ocean layer shows through.

Ahhh...and how do you do that? Using the crop tool?

As I've said and no doubt demonstrated a time or two...I absolutely suck with this kind of stuff.



BTW....I would like more input on this map than just from Natty. No offense to Natty, I really appreciate all the help he's given me. But, having more than one person's input on this map will help a great deal. I'm surprised to not have seen any input at all from anybody with a blue name, given that damn near every thread in the melting pot has a at least one pot from somebody who is officially with the foundry.


Btw, I've been drinking.

[kengyin]

ive had personal experience with this and know how you feel, my map didnt get into gameplay for quite a while too. to make the oceans show through just use the path tool to select where you want to have the rivers and erase that portion of the land area

[natty dread]

Not the path tool. Use the free select (lasso) tool.

[Bruceswar]

Not the path tool. Use the free select (lasso) tool.

I think he was more meaning to draw the line up. Personally I hand draw my rivers. Works best if you ask me.

[natty dread]

Not the path tool. Use the free select (lasso) tool.

I think he was more meaning to draw the line up. Personally I hand draw my rivers. Works best if you ask me.

Hand drawing is not for everyone. Especially people who only have a mouse should avoid it.

Also, when you draw the river on top of the land area, it easily looks pasted on... it's hard to get that "water" look and make it consistent with the sea areas.

The way I do rivers is to make them the same as the sea: just cut up a river-shaped part off the land, so that the sea layer shows through - rivers are almost always connected to seas anyway, so this makes for a consistent look, which also helps with gameplay clarity.

[tkr4lf]

You can move this to the recycling bin for now.

I'm not going to have internet access for a while. I'm not sure when/if I'll be back, but if/when I do come back, and post back here and start up on it again.

If it has been a while and noone has heard from me, then anyone who may want to take this up is free to do so.

Thanks.

[Bruceswar]

What a shame

[MrBenn]

What a shame

'tis a shame - there were some glimpses of promise here.

You can move this to the recycling bin for now.

I'm not going to have internet access for a while. I'm not sure when/if I'll be back, but if/when I do come back, and post back here and start up on it again.

If it has been a while and noone has heard from me, then anyone who may want to take this up is free to do so.

Thanks.

Give us a shout when you're back, and we can put you back on the road.

[Riskismy]

Come back soon!

[tkr4lf]

I'm back around. I guess I should start up on this again.

Maybe I'll take a little break and start up again in a few days or so. It's been a hell of a month.