The CUBE

by **iancanton** on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:26 am

silly me didn't see that!

there are two things we haven't considered so far. turn 1 minisquare bonuses on the outside faces (i estimate a 15% chance that player 1 will have at least 1 minisquare, without adding in the difficult-to-value extra chances caused by interlinking from adjacent points) and the number of non-neutral points (56 isn't a good number for 2-player games because player 1 can reduce player 2's initial deployment by taking only 1 point from him - 18 less 1 is 17, meaning a deployment of 5 troops compared with player 1's 6).

one solution is to start neutral a pair of white non-edge points on each face in a systematic manner. an example, using the A1w-D4z axis of rotational symmetry, is A3x, A2y, B1y, C1x, C2w, B3w and diametrically-opposing points. if we do this, then there are 14 initial points per player in 2-player and 11 in 4-player.

an alternative is to have 1 white non-edge point on each face allocated to one of 2 sets of start positions. an example, again using the A1w-D4z axis of symmetry, is A3x, B1y, C2w with their diametrically-opposing points for set 1 and A2y, C1x, B3x with their antipodes for set 2. if we do that, then player 1 starts with 20 initial points in 2-player and 14 in 4-player. games with 3 or more players are not affected by the start positions.

ian.

by **paulk** on Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:39 am

I have to admit that I am slightly confused

I have tried to understand what you wrote and I guess you mean this:

The Problem:
When starting with 8 neutrals in the middle there are 56 balls left.
In a 2 or 3 player game it would mean that the split would be 18+18+18 + 2 (extra) neutrals of those 56.

My question here is if in a 2 player game it would be possible to make it 19+19+(18 neutrals)?
Or possibly even adjust it to 20+20+(16 neutrals) since already 8 starter neutrals are on the map?

For three player games it would mean an inconvenience to start 2nd or 3rd, but on the other hand, many players would rather start with attacking any of the yellow balls, since they would be worth +1 auto deploy, just to hold them. Actually the maps easiest bonuses to take and hold.

Any way, your first solution would mean that we reduce the number of starter territories by adding 2 starter neutrals (=12 total) on each face of the cube.
That would reduce the number of starter territories to 64-8-12=44
in a 2 or 3 player game that would mean 14+14+14 + 2 (extra) neutral starter territories.
That might work considering the number of territories, but it would be a boring map, with so many neutrals all over. In a 2 player game it would mean 14+14 +36 neutrals. More than double the amount of neutrals than regular troops. (I personally think that would kind of kill the map.)

Your second solution sounded to me exactly like your first solution, but you got it to be 20+20+(16 neutrals). That sounds good to me, please explain it once again.

******************************************************************************************************************

As an alternative, we could go back to the
Old trashed idea:
To avoid unfair starting positions the yellow vertices are divided between the players so you get 2 yellow vertices in a 2-4 player game and 1 in 5-8 player games.
The rest of the inner yellow vertices start as neutral.
All other (outer) vertices are randomly divided.

In a 2-4 player game that would give you 2 extra balls to start with, so the 2 player starter point problem would vanish, since you get 20 starter balls.
Of course this would mean that the auto deploy of +1 for holding a yellow ball would have to be exchanged for the old idea that you get (only) +1 if the yellow ball is a part of one or more mini squares or mini cubes.
I am personally starting to lean back towards this. It is just a hassle to try to explain it in plain english on the map...

Looking forward (very much) to additional comments.

/paulk

by **paulk** on Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:59 pm

Decided on following changes:
I went back on the idea with the yellow balls since it will improve both the initial placement and possibly gameplay (people will not just try to hold the yellow balls).
I also added a "hold a color bonus" just for a little extra fun.
I clarified "additional" for several bonuses.

Extracted form this threads first post:

*******************************************************************************************************

Initial placement:
Alternative 1) All yellow verticles/balls start with neutral 2.

Alternative 2) To avoid unfair starting positions the yellow balls are divided between the players so you get 2 yellow balls in a 2-4 player game and 1 in 5-8 player games.
The rest of the inner yellow balls start as neutral.
All other (outer) balls are randomly divided.

In a 2 player game this means 20 starter balls each and 24 neutrals. (4 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 3 player game this means 20 starter balls each and 4 neutrals. (2 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 4 player game this means 16 starter balls each and 0 neutrals. (0 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 5 player game this means 12 starter balls each and 4 neutrals. (3 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 6 player game this means 10 starter balls each and 4 neutrals. (2 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 7 player game this means 9 starter balls each and 1 neutrals. (1 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 8 player game this means 8 starter balls each and 0 neutrals. (0 of the neutrals yellow)

Latest Version 27 (Big):
Went back to the rule of including the yellow balls in one or more mini squares or mini cubes to get the "yellow ball bonus", partly because it improved the initial number of starter balls, partly because I believe the gameplay improves from it.
Raised the "yellow ball bonus" to +2.
Added a "outer layer same color mini square bonus" of +2.

by **iancanton** on Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:04 pm

paulk wrote:Alternative 2) To avoid unfair starting positions the yellow balls are divided between the players so you get 2 yellow balls in a 2-4 player game and 1 in 5-8 player games.
The rest of the inner yellow balls start as neutral.
All other (outer) balls are randomly divided.

how many sets of start positions will u have? 8 start positions, each consisting of exactly 1 yellow ball and no white balls? if so, then each player in 1v1 will receive 4 yellow balls each, which is a real fly in the ointment when u consider that there'll be a good chance of these 4 yellow balls combining with each other or with 2 other balls to produce a significant starting deployment for player 1; each player will also start with 18 balls.

ian.

by **paulk** on Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:02 pm

Only 2 yellow balls in a 2-4 player game.
I am aware of the "start with 4 yellow balls" problem.

But I see that I could have explained it in a confusing way, so I changed the text accordingly:
In a 2 player game this means 20 starter balls each and 24 neutrals. (4 of the neutrals yellow)

by **iancanton** on Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:44 pm

i don't know of a way to code 8 start positions in such a way that 4 remain neutral in a 2-player game. the game engine always fills all start positions evenly, with as few neutrals as possible.

paulk wrote:Your second solution sounded to me exactly like your first solution, but you got it to be 20+20+(16 neutrals). That sounds good to me, please explain it once again.

iancanton wrote:have 1 white non-edge point on each face allocated to one of 2 sets of start positions. an example, again using the A1w-D4z axis of symmetry, is A3x, B1y, C2w with their diametrically-opposing points for set 1 and A2y, C1x, B3x with their antipodes for set 2. if we do that, then player 1 starts with 20 initial points in 2-player and 14 in 4-player. games with 3 or more players are not affected by the start positions.

on each of the 6 outside faces, let {A3x, B1y, C2w, D2y, C4x, B3z} be the set of red start positions and let {A2y, C1x, B3w, D3x, B4y, C2z} be the set of green start positions (in fact, there's an equal chance that red and green will be reversed). in 2-player games, red and green both start with 6 fixed balls and 14 random balls, making 20 total, while the neutral player has all 8 yellow balls plus 16 random balls, making 24 total. 14 each plus 16 neutral is simply the normal method of splitting 44 balls among 2 players. 3-player or larger games have fully-random starts apart from the 8 yellow balls being neutral.

the intention is that, on each outside face, the red and green balls interfere somewhat with each other, so that neither player can to start with the central minisquare on each face (the important one, since there are 4 chances of combining with 2 same-colour balls to produce a 2-square initial bonus), though it's still possible to start with a corner minisquare.

don't give up, paul. i'm keen to see this worthy map move forward, after it's spent so long in cold storage!

ian.

by **paulk** on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:35 pm

First of all, I don't see the harm if there is a slight chance to start with a bonus. I am no mathematician, but is the chance to succeed with that rather slim?

Sometimes in World 2.1 (that is my favorite map) someone starts with a bonus there too, (or start with a bonus shy of 1). It is simply a part of the game that there is a slight chance you get a great drop.

I am no XML expert, I got help from Tieryn, and here is the XML he had made, that is supposed to let 2-4 players start with 2 yellow balls each and 5-8 players start with 1 yellow ball each.
Someone (you ian?) that know XML by heart please take a look at it.
The increased bonus for a yellow ball, and the mini square solid color bonus is still missing in this version.

Here is the XML, I had to cut it in 2 parts because of the limitations of the forum:

Code: Select all: <?xml version="1.0" ?> - <map> <title>Hypercube</title> <smallwidth>608</smallwidth> <smallheight>600</smallheight> <largewidth>725</largewidth> <largeheight>715</largeheight> <filetype>jpg</filetype> -  -  - <positions> - <position> <territory start="5">B2x</territory> </position> - <position> <territory start="5">B3x</territory> </position> - <position> <territory start="5">B2y</territory> </position> - <position> <territory start="5">B3y</territory> </position> - <position> <territory start="5">C2x</territory> </position> - <position> <territory start="5">C3x</territory> </position> - <position> <territory start="5">C2y</territory> </position> - <position> <territory start="5">C3y</territory> </position> </positions> -  - <continent> <name>Square AA 12 wx</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A1w</territory> <territory>A2w</territory> <territory>A1x</territory> <territory>A2x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AA 23 wx</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A2w</territory> <territory>A3w</territory> <territory>A2x</territory> <territory>A3x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AA 34 wx</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A3w</territory> <territory>A4w</territory> <territory>A3x</territory> <territory>A4x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AA 12 xy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A1x</territory> <territory>A2x</territory> <territory>A1y</territory> <territory>A2y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AA 23 xy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A2x</territory> <territory>A3x</territory> <territory>A2y</territory> <territory>A3y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AA 34 xy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A3x</territory> <territory>A4x</territory> <territory>A3y</territory> <territory>A4y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AA 12 yz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A1y</territory> <territory>A2y</territory> <territory>A1z</territory> <territory>A2z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AA 23 yz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A2y</territory> <territory>A3y</territory> <territory>A2z</territory> <territory>A3z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AA 34 zy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A3y</territory> <territory>A4y</territory> <territory>A3z</territory> <territory>A4z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BB 12 wx</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>B1w</territory> <territory>B2w</territory> <territory>B1x</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BB 23 wx</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>B2w</territory> <territory>B3w</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BB 34 wx</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - 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<continent> <name>Square CD 34 ww</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3w</territory> <territory>C4w</territory> <territory>D3w</territory> <territory>D4w</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 12 xx</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>C1x</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>D1x</territory> <territory>D2x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 23 xx</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>D2x</territory> <territory>D3x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 34 xx</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>C4x</territory> <territory>D3x</territory> <territory>D4x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 12 yy</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>C1y</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>D1y</territory> <territory>D2y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 23 yy</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>D2y</territory> <territory>D3y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 34 yy</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>C4y</territory> <territory>D3y</territory> <territory>D4y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 12 zz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C1z</territory> <territory>C2z</territory> <territory>D1z</territory> <territory>D2z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 23 zz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C2z</territory> <territory>C3z</territory> <territory>D2z</territory> <territory>D3z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 34 zz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3z</territory> <territory>C4z</territory> <territory>D3z</territory> <territory>D4z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 11 wx</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A1w</territory> <territory>A1x</territory> <territory>B1w</territory> <territory>B1x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 22 wx</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>A2w</territory> <territory>A2x</territory> <territory>B2w</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 33 wx</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>A3w</territory> <territory>A3x</territory> <territory>B3w</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 44 wx</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A4w</territory> <territory>A4x</territory> <territory>B4w</territory> <territory>B4x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 11 xy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A1x</territory> <territory>A1y</territory> <territory>B1x</territory> <territory>B1y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 22 xy</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>A2x</territory> <territory>A2y</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 33 xy</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>A3x</territory> <territory>A3y</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 44 xy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A4x</territory> <territory>A4y</territory> <territory>B4x</territory> <territory>B4y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 11 yz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A1y</territory> <territory>A1z</territory> <territory>B1y</territory> <territory>B1z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 22 yz</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>A2y</territory> <territory>A2z</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>B2z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 33 yz</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>A3y</territory> <territory>A3z</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>B3z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square AB 44 yz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>A4y</territory> <territory>A4z</territory> <territory>B4y</territory> <territory>B4z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 11 wx</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>B1w</territory> <territory>B1x</territory> <territory>C1w</territory> <territory>C1x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 22 wx</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>B2w</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>C2w</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 33 wx</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>B3w</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>C3w</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 44 wx</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>B4w</territory> <territory>B4x</territory> <territory>C4w</territory> <territory>C4x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 11 xy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>B1x</territory> <territory>B1y</territory> <territory>C1x</territory> <territory>C1y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 22 xy</name> <bonus>5</bonus> - <components> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 33 xy</name> <bonus>5</bonus> - <components> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 44 xy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>B4x</territory> <territory>B4y</territory> <territory>C4x</territory> <territory>C4y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 11 yz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>B1y</territory> <territory>B1z</territory> <territory>C1y</territory> <territory>C1z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 22 yz</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>B2z</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>C2z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 33 yz</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>B3z</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>C3z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square BC 44 yz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>B4y</territory> <territory>B4z</territory> <territory>C4y</territory> <territory>C4z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 11 wx</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C1w</territory> <territory>C1x</territory> <territory>D1w</territory> <territory>D1x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 22 wx</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>C2w</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>D2w</territory> <territory>D2x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 33 wx</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3w</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>D3w</territory> <territory>D3x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 44 wx</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C4w</territory> <territory>C4x</territory> <territory>D4w</territory> <territory>D4x</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 11 xy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C1x</territory> <territory>C1y</territory> <territory>D1x</territory> <territory>D1y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 22 xy</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>D2x</territory> <territory>D2y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 33 xy</name> <bonus>3</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>D3x</territory> <territory>D3y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 44 xy</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C4x</territory> <territory>C4y</territory> <territory>D4x</territory> <territory>D4y</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 11 yz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C1y</territory> <territory>C1z</territory> <territory>D1y</territory> <territory>D1z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 22 yz</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>C2z</territory> <territory>D2y</territory> <territory>D2z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 33 yz</name> <bonus>2</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>C3z</territory> <territory>D3y</territory> <territory>D3z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>Square CD 44 yz</name> <bonus>1</bonus> - <components> <territory>C4y</territory> <territory>C4z</territory> <territory>D4y</territory> <territory>D4z</territory> </components> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube AB 12 wx (1y)</name> <bonus>10</bonus> - <components> <territory>A1w</territory> <territory>A2w</territory> <territory>A1x</territory> <territory>A2x</territory> <territory>B1w</territory> <territory>B2w</territory> <territory>B1x</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square AA 12 wx</override> <override>Square BB 12 wx</override> <override>Square AB 12 ww</override> <override>Square AB 12 xx</override> <override>Square AB 11 wx</override> <override>Square AB 22 wx</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube AB 23 wx (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>A2w</territory> <territory>A3w</territory> <territory>A2x</territory> <territory>A3x</territory> <territory>B2w</territory> <territory>B3w</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square AA 23 wx</override> <override>Square BB 23 wx</override> <override>Square AB 23 ww</override> <override>Square AB 23 xx</override> <override>Square AB 22 wx</override> <override>Square AB 33 wx</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube AB 34 wx (1y)</name> <bonus>10</bonus> - <components> <territory>A3w</territory> <territory>A4w</territory> <territory>A3x</territory> <territory>A4x</territory> <territory>B3w</territory> <territory>B4w</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>B4x</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square AA 34 wx</override> <override>Square BB 34 wx</override> <override>Square AB 34 ww</override> <override>Square AB 34 xx</override> <override>Square AB 33 wx</override> <override>Square AB 44 wx</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube AB 12 xy (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>A1x</territory> <territory>A2x</territory> <territory>A1y</territory> <territory>A2y</territory> <territory>B1x</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>B1y</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square AA 12 xy</override> <override>Square BB 12 xy</override> <override>Square AB 12 xx</override> #REF! <override>Square AB 11 xy</override> <override>Square AB 22 xy</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube AB 23 xy (4y)</name> <bonus>13</bonus> - <components> <territory>A2x</territory> <territory>A3x</territory> <territory>A2y</territory> <territory>A3y</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square AA 23 xy</override> <override>Square BB 23 xy</override> <override>Square AB 23 xx</override> #REF! <override>Square AB 22 xy</override> <override>Square AB 33 xy</override> </overrides> </continent>

by **paulk** on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:36 pm

part 2 of the XML:

Code: Select all: - <continent> <name>miniCube AB 34 xy (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>A3x</territory> <territory>A4x</territory> <territory>A3y</territory> <territory>A4y</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>B4x</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>B4y</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square AA 34 xy</override> <override>Square BB 34 xy</override> <override>Square AB 34 xx</override> #REF! <override>Square AB 33 xy</override> <override>Square AB 44 xy</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube AB 12 yz (1y)</name> <bonus>10</bonus> - <components> <territory>A1y</territory> <territory>A2y</territory> <territory>A1z</territory> <territory>A2z</territory> <territory>B1y</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>B1z</territory> <territory>B2z</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square AA 12 yz</override> <override>Square BB 12 yz</override> #REF! <override>Square AB 12 yy</override> <override>Square AB 11 yz</override> <override>Square AB 22 yz</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube AB 23 yz (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>A2y</territory> <territory>A3y</territory> <territory>A2z</territory> <territory>A3z</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>B2z</territory> <territory>B3z</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square AA 23 yz</override> <override>Square BB 23 yz</override> #REF! <override>Square AB 23 yy</override> <override>Square AB 22 yz</override> <override>Square AB 33 yz</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube AB 34 yz (1y)</name> <bonus>10</bonus> - <components> <territory>A3y</territory> <territory>A4y</territory> <territory>A3z</territory> <territory>A4z</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>B4y</territory> <territory>B3z</territory> <territory>B4z</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square AA 34 zy</override> <override>Square BB 34 zy</override> #REF! <override>Square AB 34 yy</override> <override>Square AB 33 yz</override> <override>Square AB 44 yz</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube BC 12 wx (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>B1w</territory> <territory>B2w</territory> <territory>B1x</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>C1w</territory> <territory>C2w</territory> <territory>C1x</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square BB 12 wx</override> <override>Square CC 12 wx</override> <override>Square BC 12 ww</override> <override>Square BC 12 xx</override> <override>Square BC 11 wx</override> <override>Square BC 22 wx</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube BC 23 wx (4y)</name> <bonus>13</bonus> - <components> <territory>B2w</territory> <territory>B3w</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>C2w</territory> <territory>C3w</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square BB 23 wx</override> <override>Square CC 23 wx</override> <override>Square BC 23 ww</override> <override>Square BC 23 xx</override> <override>Square BC 22 wx</override> <override>Square BC 33 wx</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube BC 34 wx (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>B3w</territory> <territory>B4w</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>B4x</territory> <territory>C3w</territory> <territory>C4w</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>C4x</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square BB 34 wx</override> <override>Square CC 34 wx</override> <override>Square BC 34 ww</override> <override>Square BC 34 xx</override> <override>Square BC 33 wx</override> <override>Square BC 44 wx</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube BC 12 xy (4y)</name> <bonus>13</bonus> - <components> <territory>B1x</territory> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>B1y</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>C1x</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>C1y</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square BB 12 xy</override> <override>Square CC 12 xy</override> <override>Square BC 12 xx</override> <override>Square BC 12 yy</override> <override>Square BC 11 xy</override> <override>Square BC 22 xy</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube BC 23 xy (8y)</name> <bonus>17</bonus> - <components> <territory>B2x</territory> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square BB 23 xy</override> <override>Square CC 23 xy</override> <override>Square BC 23 xx</override> <override>Square BC 23 yy</override> <override>Square BC 22 xy</override> <override>Square BC 33 xy</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube BC 34 xy (4y)</name> <bonus>13</bonus> - <components> <territory>B3x</territory> <territory>B4x</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>B4y</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>C4x</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>C4y</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square BB 34 xy</override> <override>Square CC 34 xy</override> <override>Square BC 34 xx</override> <override>Square BC 34 yy</override> <override>Square BC 33 xy</override> <override>Square BC 44 xy</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube BC 12 yz (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>B1y</territory> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>B1z</territory> <territory>B2z</territory> <territory>C1y</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>C1z</territory> <territory>C2z</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square BB 12 yz</override> <override>Square CC 12 yz</override> <override>Square BC 12 yy</override> <override>Square BC 12 zz</override> <override>Square BC 11 yz</override> <override>Square BC 22 yz</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube BC 23 yz (4y)</name> <bonus>13</bonus> - <components> <territory>B2y</territory> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>B2z</territory> <territory>B3z</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>C2z</territory> <territory>C3z</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square BB 23 yz</override> <override>Square CC 23 yz</override> <override>Square BC 23 yy</override> <override>Square BC 23 zz</override> <override>Square BC 22 yz</override> <override>Square BC 33 yz</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube BC 34 yz (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>B3y</territory> <territory>B4y</territory> <territory>B3z</territory> <territory>B4z</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>C4y</territory> <territory>C3z</territory> <territory>C4z</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square BB 34 zy</override> <override>Square CC 34 zy</override> <override>Square BC 34 yy</override> <override>Square BC 34 zz</override> <override>Square BC 33 yz</override> <override>Square BC 44 yz</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube CD 12 wx (1y)</name> <bonus>10</bonus> - <components> <territory>C1w</territory> <territory>C2w</territory> <territory>C1x</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>D1w</territory> <territory>D2w</territory> <territory>D1x</territory> <territory>D2x</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square CC 12 wx</override> <override>Square DD 12 wx</override> <override>Square CD 12 ww</override> <override>Square CD 12 xx</override> <override>Square CD 11 wx</override> <override>Square CD 22 wx</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube CD 23 wx (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>C2w</territory> <territory>C3w</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>D2w</territory> <territory>D3w</territory> <territory>D2x</territory> <territory>D3x</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square CC 23 wx</override> <override>Square DD 23 wx</override> <override>Square CD 23 ww</override> <override>Square CD 23 xx</override> <override>Square CD 22 wx</override> <override>Square CD 33 wx</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube CD 34 wx (1y)</name> <bonus>10</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3w</territory> <territory>C4w</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>C4x</territory> <territory>D3w</territory> <territory>D4w</territory> <territory>D3x</territory> <territory>D4x</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square CC 34 wx</override> <override>Square DD 34 wx</override> <override>Square CD 34 ww</override> <override>Square CD 34 xx</override> <override>Square CD 33 wx</override> <override>Square CD 44 wx</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube CD 12 xy (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>C1x</territory> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>C1y</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>D1x</territory> <territory>D2x</territory> <territory>D1y</territory> <territory>D2y</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square CC 12 xy</override> <override>Square DD 12 xy</override> <override>Square CD 12 xx</override> <override>Square CD 12 yy</override> <override>Square CD 11 xy</override> <override>Square CD 22 xy</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube CD 23 xy (4y)</name> <bonus>13</bonus> - <components> <territory>C2x</territory> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>D2x</territory> <territory>D3x</territory> <territory>D2y</territory> <territory>D3y</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square CC 23 xy</override> <override>Square DD 23 xy</override> <override>Square CD 23 xx</override> <override>Square CD 23 yy</override> <override>Square CD 22 xy</override> <override>Square CD 33 xy</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube CD 34 xy (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3x</territory> <territory>C4x</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>C4y</territory> <territory>D3x</territory> <territory>D4x</territory> <territory>D3y</territory> <territory>D4y</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square CC 34 xy</override> <override>Square DD 34 xy</override> <override>Square CD 34 xx</override> <override>Square CD 34 yy</override> <override>Square CD 33 xy</override> <override>Square CD 44 xy</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube CD 12 yz (1y)</name> <bonus>10</bonus> - <components> <territory>C1y</territory> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>C1z</territory> <territory>C2z</territory> <territory>D1y</territory> <territory>D2y</territory> <territory>D1z</territory> <territory>D2z</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square CC 12 yz</override> <override>Square DD 12 yz</override> <override>Square CD 12 yy</override> <override>Square CD 12 zz</override> <override>Square CD 11 yz</override> <override>Square CD 22 yz</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube CD 23 yz (2y)</name> <bonus>11</bonus> - <components> <territory>C2y</territory> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>C2z</territory> <territory>C3z</territory> <territory>D2y</territory> <territory>D3y</territory> <territory>D2z</territory> <territory>D3z</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square CC 23 yz</override> <override>Square DD 23 yz</override> <override>Square CD 23 yy</override> <override>Square CD 23 zz</override> <override>Square CD 22 yz</override> <override>Square CD 33 yz</override> </overrides> </continent> - <continent> <name>miniCube CD 34 yz (1y)</name> <bonus>10</bonus> - <components> <territory>C3y</territory> <territory>C4y</territory> <territory>C3z</territory> <territory>C4z</territory> <territory>D3y</territory> <territory>D4y</territory> <territory>D3z</territory> <territory>D4z</territory> </components> - <overrides> <override>Square CC 34 zy</override> <override>Square DD 34 zy</override> <override>Square CD 34 yy</override> <override>Square CD 34 zz</override> <override>Square CD 33 yz</override> <override>Square CD 44 yz</override> </overrides> </continent> - 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<coordinates> <smallx>112</smallx> <smally>178</smally> <largex>134</largex> <largey>207</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D3w</name> - <borders> <border>D2w</border> <border>D4w</border> <border>D3x</border> <border>C3w</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>112</smallx> <smally>309</smally> <largex>134</largex> <largey>363</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D4w</name> - <borders> <border>D3w</border> <border>D4x</border> <border>C4w</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>112</smallx> <smally>440</smally> <largex>134</largex> <largey>519</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D1x</name> - <borders> <border>D1w</border> <border>D2x</border> <border>D1y</border> <border>C1x</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>243</smallx> <smally>47</smally> <largex>290</largex> <largey>51</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D2x</name> - <borders> <border>D1x</border> <border>D2w</border> <border>D3x</border> <border>D2y</border> <border>C2x</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>243</smallx> <smally>178</smally> <largex>290</largex> <largey>207</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D3x</name> - <borders> <border>D2x</border> <border>D3w</border> <border>D4x</border> <border>D3y</border> <border>C3x</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>243</smallx> <smally>309</smally> <largex>290</largex> <largey>363</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D4x</name> - <borders> <border>D3x</border> <border>D4w</border> <border>D4y</border> <border>C4x</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>243</smallx> <smally>440</smally> <largex>290</largex> <largey>519</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D1y</name> - <borders> <border>D1x</border> <border>D2y</border> <border>D1z</border> <border>C1y</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>374</smallx> <smally>47</smally> <largex>446</largex> <largey>51</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D2y</name> - <borders> <border>D1y</border> <border>D2x</border> <border>D3y</border> <border>D2z</border> <border>C2y</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>374</smallx> <smally>178</smally> <largex>446</largex> <largey>207</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D3y</name> - <borders> <border>D2y</border> <border>D3x</border> <border>D4y</border> <border>D3z</border> <border>C3y</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>374</smallx> <smally>309</smally> <largex>446</largex> <largey>363</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D4y</name> - <borders> <border>D3y</border> <border>D4x</border> <border>D4z</border> <border>C4y</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>374</smallx> <smally>440</smally> <largex>446</largex> <largey>519</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D1z</name> - <borders> <border>D1y</border> <border>D2z</border> <border>C1z</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>505</smallx> <smally>47</smally> <largex>602</largex> <largey>51</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D2z</name> - <borders> <border>D1z</border> <border>D2y</border> <border>D3z</border> <border>C2z</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>505</smallx> <smally>178</smally> <largex>602</largex> <largey>207</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D3z</name> - <borders> <border>D2z</border> <border>D3y</border> <border>D4z</border> <border>C3z</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>505</smallx> <smally>309</smally> <largex>602</largex> <largey>363</largey> </coordinates> </territory> - <territory> <name>D4z</name> - <borders> <border>D3z</border> <border>D4y</border> <border>C4z</border> </borders> - <coordinates> <smallx>505</smallx> <smally>440</smally> <largex>602</largex> <largey>519</largey> </coordinates> </territory> </map>

by **iancanton** on Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:42 am

i'm not an xml expert, but i'm sure that one of the other mods or yeti_c will be willing to answer any questions if u ask nicely!

ian.

by **paulk** on Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:49 pm

I wrote on yeti_c's wall and asked him to take a look at the XML.

While I have been waiting I have started annoying myself more and more on the ABCD -1234-wxyz system to differentiate between the balls.
I don't get it myself, that's how bad it is.
So I started thinking, how I would talk about areas if I was discussing the map?
I would naturally probably talk about colored balls, the red, green, cyan etc.
I could talk about the red balls, and the balls between the red and green ones. Maybe the white ball between the red and green balls closer to the pink ball, would be one way to explain it.
But then, the cube's eight corner balls would be called something like the white outer corner ball between the red, green and pink ball areas.

So I started thinking, I could name those corner balls unique names and use that somehow.
First I thought of using Greek alphabet symbols like delta, phi, omega and so on, but too many would not have a clue what was called what or how to find them on the keyboard, which would make it a lot harder to discuss gameplay.
Second I thought of using symbols that I and many with me have on top of their keyboard numbers, like #$%^&*+= but I simply didn't like it.
Third I looked online if the cube corners had any mathematical names, but all I got up was verticles.
So I finally went for the numbers idea, numbering the corner balls from 1 to 8 like a "snake" that connects back to 1 from 8.
I noticed that the corner numbers can affect the balls in the mini cube closest to it, and therefore divide the big cube into 8 mini cube areas.

Now, if you can keep the color positions and the "number snake" in your head it should be fairly easy to read positions like "rg4" [red-green-4] or "c8" [cyan-8] or "y3" [yellow-3] or (6) for corner ball 6.

I played with the font and size and color to tone the territory names down, first I tried having the r,c,o,g,b,p with their respective color, but that would be CRAZY hard on your eyes especially when you get all the colored game numbers on top as well. So I toned it down to a visible but discreet gray and changed the font slightly.

Version 28

Version 29
Now I got a bit experimental here and went putting a glow around the white balls.

Version 30
I even made an animated map!

by **natty dread** on Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:23 pm

Not that blinking one, please... distracting as ***

by **yeti_c** on Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:22 am

With 8 starting positions you will receive the following number of yellows...

Code: Select all: Players - Balls 2 4 3 2 4 2 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1

G3 <-> GO3 <-> O3 = bad.

C.

by **paulk** on Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:35 pm

paulk wrote:Initial placement:
To avoid unfair starting positions the yellow balls are divided between the players so you get 2 yellow balls in a 2-4 player game and 1 in 5-8 player games.
The rest of the inner yellow balls start as neutral.
All other (outer) balls are randomly divided.

In a 2 player game this means 20 starter balls each and 24 neutrals. (4 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 3 player game this means 20 starter balls each and 4 neutrals. (2 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 4 player game this means 16 starter balls each and 0 neutrals. (0 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 5 player game this means 12 starter balls each and 4 neutrals. (3 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 6 player game this means 10 starter balls each and 4 neutrals. (2 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 7 player game this means 9 starter balls each and 1 neutrals. (1 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 8 player game this means 8 starter balls each and 0 neutrals. (0 of the neutrals yellow)

yeti_c - (or any other XML expert) - is above starting positions not possible?

by **natty dread** on Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:51 pm

It should be entirely possible.

by **paulk** on Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:02 pm

LOL, it should. But the question is, does the XML at hand do its job?

by **natty dread** on Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:04 pm

What I meant was, AFAIK it is possible.

by **yeti_c** on Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:55 pm

You ask for my advice - then you don't listen to it...

C.

yeti_c wrote:With 8 starting positions you will receive the following number of yellows...

Code: Select all
Players - Balls 2 4 3 2 4 2 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1

G3 <-> GO3 <-> O3 = bad.

C.

by **paulk** on Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:10 pm

yeti_c wrote:You ask for my advice - then you don't listen to it...

C.

yeti_c wrote:With 8 starting positions you will receive the following number of yellows...

Code: Select all
Players - Balls 2 4 3 2 4 2 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1

G3 <-> GO3 <-> O3 = bad.

C.

I listened, but I didn't understand. "G3 <-> GO3 <-> O3 = bad." doesn't tell me anything. I don't code XML (yet) and I didn't code the XML at hand. Tieryn did.

Does it become "2 players = 4 balls" because of bad code that could be fixed or is it just not possible to code this in XML?

If it is possible, someone please paste the little code snippet that shows that it is, so this map can take a step forward.

Thank you very much for your participation. It is very much valued.

by **yeti_c** on Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:12 pm

Right - The way it is - is that 2 players will get 4 balls... no other way of coding it.

The other bit is todo with the location of 3 balls next to each other - and that they will be easily mistaken.

C.

by **paulk** on Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:55 pm

natty_dread wrote:What I meant was, AFAIK it is possible.

But but... you say this and yeti_c says that. :cry:

Is he right?

by **natty dread** on Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:57 pm

yeti is probably right, he's the expert on the subject. I'm just a noob

by **paulk** on Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:13 pm

Dang, what do I do then?

by **paulk** on Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:15 pm

Where can I read about conquerclub XML possibilities and limits?

by **natty dread** on Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:23 pm

I think I saw some threads on the subject in the foundry tips & discussion subforum.

edit. found this at least viewtopic.php?f=466&t=23382&start=0

I don't know if it helps...

by **thenobodies80** on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:26 pm

Poll Result

Do you support this map?

Yes, definetly. I want to play it!!!....158.....77%

No, throw it in the trash and lets forget it ever existed.....47.....23%

Total votes : 205