Antarctica v9 [I, Gp, Gr]

[MrBenn]

Understood Benn, but it got the gameplay stamp ages ago. All it needs now are graphics and XML.

Sorry about that - I didn't see any of the tags in the title, so assumed it didn't have the GP stamp yet

I completely understand and share your frustration with the process, and the random (circular) nit-picking - it's the primary reason I don't spend more time working on my own drafts now.

So, let's try and get the graphics fine-tuned now, so I can give you a graphics stamp

The borders (between) territories on the version I quoted earlier are fine. The snow-effect borders, while awesome, make it slightly difficult to see where the different regions border - mostly in the Peninsula/West Ant/Marie Byrd Land. Perhaps adding a very feint line in the middle of the 'snow' would help make these borders more obvious?

I don't see any problem with abbreviated territory names; so there is no need to mess around with those.

I completely agree with your sentiment about deciding whether or not to drop the impassables/one-way attacks from the legend. We tend to err on the side of caution and assume that people won;t realise what things mean without some sort of instruction. In this case though, they feel fairly intuitive and whichever you choose to go with should be fine.

Personally I think that the South Pole instruction would be better suited to an inset - and I still think that some colour would help to bring the mini-map to life, possibly with some enhanced cross-hatching?

The region labels look a bit out of place where they are - would it be a problem to add the labels to the mini-map instead?

[Ogrecrusher]

Just thought I should throw in that I love the map and hope you don't get too discouraged, I want to see this finished!

[e_i_pi]

Just thought I should throw in that I love the map and hope you don't get too discouraged, I want to see this finished!

I want to see it finished too, but I'm very busy in my life. This week, like most other weeks, has seen me put in 10 hours overtime at work. That brings me up to 45 hours for the week. I don't have a partner that could help me out with housekeeping and washing clothes, so of the 1-1.5 days I get off per week, 1 day is spent sorting my home life out, and the other half a day I see my family and/or friends. If I could do graphics at work, this would be done, but unfortunately I don't have access to PS here, so I can only work on it at home. This coupled with the fact that a lot of the complaints are of the form "I don't like x, x could be better" without stating how x could be better... well it's seen the graphics of this map go round in circles for many many months. Without proper input into how the map could be better, I'm shooting blind.

As an example, the arrows that once pointed to the South Pole changed I believe 4 times before they were eventually ditched. Not one single version saw everyone happy. The reason why none of them carried is because it seems anyone wandering into the thread has the executive right of veto.

Also, the arrows pointing to the ports have received these comments:

For that matter there are a few points where it wouldn't hurt to make it dreadfully obvious to which territories the boats connect, as some of the arrows seem to point to ocean/bays

The arrows on the fleets are sometimes good, sometimes bad. For instance, GBR's left arrow looks great, and its right arrow looks like an ivy leaf

That is the sum and total of the comments about the ship arrows, yet these arrows are an apparent "major issue" with the map. Now, if I go and change the ship arrows, like I did the South Pole arrows, where does that leave me? Every single version of the South Pole arrows have been poo-pooed.

I invite the community to submit ideas about the arrows leading from the ships, and the arrows that should lead to the south pole but aren't there right now. I'm not spending another 5 months going round in circles for zero pay.

[MrBenn]

The arrows from the ships are fine.... an overly critical eye could find insignificant things about moving them by a pixel here, or a pixel there, but I can't see anything fundamentally wrong with them at all.

The only "major" issue that I can see isn't really major at all, and involves making the snowy region borders slightly clearer to assist with gameplay.

Anything else beyond that is purely subjective (in my opinion).

[e_i_pi]

The arrows from the ships are fine.... an overly critical eye could find insignificant things about moving them by a pixel here, or a pixel there, but I can't see anything fundamentally wrong with them at all.

The only "major" issue that I can see isn't really major at all, and involves making the snowy region borders slightly clearer to assist with gameplay.

Anything else beyond that is purely subjective (in my opinion).

I honestly prefer the old version without the snowy borders. I put the snowy borders in so pedantic nitpickers would have something to whinge about, then when I put the old borders back in, knowing full-well that these people don't follow the thread or know what came beforehand, would say "oh wow, that's a great improvement" and the borders would no longer be an issue.

[MrBenn]

For the South Pole, why not keep it with the shaded area, but change the label to be something like this:

Code: Select all

South Pole
(Cannot attack)

There should be room for that on the rocks, which should negate the need for any arrows at all?

[e_i_pi]

For the South Pole, why not keep it with the shaded area, but change the label to be something like this:

Code: Select all

South Pole
(Cannot attack)

There should be room for that on the rocks, which should negate the need for any arrows at all?

Yeah I'll work on options for the texturing an info on south pole... there is a bit of space to work with in the impassable area.

On another note, I'm likely buying a laptop in the next month, which will mean I can do graphics stuff at work on the slow night shifts. So while I'll endeavour to get this map completed ASAP, I can say that it will definitely be graphics-completed within 2 months.

[00iCon]

I still don't see what the problem was with this version:

Click image to enlarge.

On that i can't tell whether the south pole arrows point in or out, I like the current textured ground. How about putting a bunker with a sattelite dish on the south pole?
And why do the norwegians start with 7 troops?

[reggie_mac]

On that i can't tell whether the south pole arrows point in or out, I like the current textured ground. How about putting a bunker with a sattelite dish on the south pole?

Try looking at the map as if you were going to play on it rather than looking at it to find thing wrong with it and it will become alot clearer.

And why do the norwegians start with 7 troops?

Its just a number, they won't.

the over all quality of this map is a lot higher than a number of maps we all currently play on, and its been flogged more times than a dead horse. Maybe of our lovely Foundry people could come up with EXACTLY what needs to be sorted to progress then the map can instead its just a bunch of 'i don't like this and i don't like that' not really putting out suggestions in how it could be changed to make it better.

[Peter Gibbons]

Since I haven''t commented on this map, I do want to say that I agree with reggie_mac insofar as saying that this is a great map that, in my eyes, has taken a few unnecessary beatings along the way. I hope the mapmaker hasn't given up on it because I'm really looking forward to seeing it move to Final Forge.

That being said, it does have some convoluted (and innovative) gameplay, so I don't think legitimate concerns should be dismissed because if they are ignored now, they lead to real problems later. As an example, I do think that the South Pole's visual importance needs to be exaggerated. Bunker and a satellite dish? Probably a bit much. But it really does need to be distinguished from the rest of the map. You need to look at this map with the perspective of people that not only have never played it, but also people that never played a role in the months during which it was developed. The South Pole is vital to winning this map (as well as Antarctic geography generally) and, looking at it now, a casual observer wouldn't see that.

[e_i_pi]

I have pretty much given up on the map... 4 hours work results in a snap 40 seconds disparagement from the community, which puts me back at square one. I have more important things to do in life right now - I spend a week on my site, I'm 1 week closer to an income - I spend a week on this and nothing happens. Sorry, but the Foundry is too negative, too nit-picking, and way too slow. On my site, my mapmakers turnaround maps in 3-4 weeks, and they produce work like this:



Why do they produce this quality? Because I give them creative freedom, and I don't pick away ad infinitum, reducing the mapmakers confidence to zero. I encourage them, give them briefs on what I want, receive their drafts, give them 2-3 pages of in-depth feedback, offer to help them source out textures / templates / imagery, and then when I receive the final, I point out the small parts that needs to be polished. 5-10 emails back and forth and it's done.

Here, this thread alone is in page 18, has not got the graphics stamp, somehow got the gameplay stamp when gameplay wasn't even discussed, and I'm completely and utterly demoralised. I don't want to work on it any more. For every piece of encouragement, there's been 4-5 disparaging and negative remarks. This is not the way to run a business, and I feel sorry for every mapmaker that has invested their precious time and effort in this "turtle-speed" site.

MrBenn, please feel free to retire this map permanently

[Peter Gibbons]

I hope you reconsider.

I've only started participating in the foundry "recently" (last 2-3 months). I make it a point to only comment on maps that I really think are great works and will undoubtedly end up in Beta. I even ignore what I consider "good" maps (Japan is an example) because I figure people will sort it out amongst themselves. Yours is one of the great ones. I recognize that the constant nitpicking and critiques are tiresome but I think it's a Catch 22: the best maps face the most criticism because they are so good and so many people want to invest time in them before they are quenched (and can't be changed). Look at Vancouver and Chicago right now--two great developmental maps that, to be honest, probably could have been quenched on their first drafts and been better than 40% of the maps that already exist. They both have over a dozen drafts and get continually tweaked.

The problem is that, as this site grows with more and more serious players, the standards for what makes a "good" map increase to the point that (at least from my perspective) only "amazing" maps get quenched." Maybe that standard needs to be lowered and that's a discussion worth having.

But, in the meantime, yours is one of the best maps in the foundry. Please don't let it die.

[Peter Gibbons]

Maybe of our lovely Foundry people could come up with EXACTLY what needs to be sorted to progress...

By the way, I agree with this.

Maybe once every two weeks, a foundry staffer could address a map in the main foundry (or final forge) and enumerate what still needs to be discussed/finalized. This might drive the discussion more, encourage more participation, and cut down on the lag between updates. I know personally, for example, that I refrain from commenting on a lot of long map threads because I don't know what points have been hashed out already. If you start following a map after page 6 or 7, it can get confusing for everyone involved. A bi-weekly recap of where a map stands (and again, I'm only talking about the maps in the main foundry that are close to moving to Final Forge) would be very useful. A great example of this, other than Antarctica, is Mexico. There are two maps that are developed very far but, I feel, a newcomer to the foundry wouldn't know what to comment upon.

[RjBeals]

Sorry, but the Foundry is too negative, too nit-picking, and way too slow... This is not the way to run a business, and I feel sorry for every mapmaker that has invested their precious time and effort in this "turtle-speed" site.

I don't agree with the foundry being negative, but 100% agree about the turtle-speed. That's why I retired also. I think all of us will go through these stages. This site breeds some talent, which will eventually get bored and move on to bigger and better things (carins, what are you waiting for my man). This Antarctica map was/is a bad-ass map, and should have been quenched many many months ago. The map clips you posted look great.. sort of familiar also. Good Luck w/ your project - maybe we'll be catching up on your grounds.

[cairnswk]

... This site breeds some talent, which will eventually get bored and move on to bigger and better things (carins, what are you waiting for my man)...

Sorry to be off topic, but to answer RJ...i do this as a hobby, i still enjoy it, and have not yet tired of it, although it seems some people may have tired of me. As yet, i'm not ready to move on....

[MrBenn]

Here, this thread alone is in page 18, has not got the graphics stamp, somehow got the gameplay stamp when gameplay wasn't even discussed, and I'm completely and utterly demoralised. I don't want to work on it any more. For every piece of encouragement, there's been 4-5 disparaging and negative remarks. This is not the way to run a business, and I feel sorry for every mapmaker that has invested their precious time and effort in this "turtle-speed" site.

MrBenn, please feel free to retire this map permanently

e_i_pi,

The mapmaking process has become incredibly slow, and that is something that I am hoping to address in due course. I know you have become disillusioned with this map, but I can assure you that there are not a billion things to do to get this map finished.

Following the last update, I posted the following:

The arrows from the ships are fine.... an overly critical eye could find insignificant things about moving them by a pixel here, or a pixel there, but I can't see anything fundamentally wrong with them at all.

The only "major" issue that I can see isn't really major at all, and involves making the snowy region borders slightly clearer to assist with gameplay.

Anything else beyond that is purely subjective (in my opinion).

Essentially, this is the only thing that was holding the map back from the Final Forge. If you're able to find some time to make an amendment, then surely that would be better than abandoning the hard work you've put into the project? I'll await some sort of response before banging the nails in your coffin

[e_i_pi]

.

[MrBenn]

Looking good!




The only thing I would suggest, is a slight rewording of the ticker along the bottom, to read "South Pole cannot attack adjacent territories, but can bombard the ships."

[sailorseal]

Looking good!




The only thing I would suggest, is a slight rewording of the ticker along the bottom, to read "South Pole cannot attack adjacent territories, but can bombard the ships."

Congrats! Love the map!

[samuelc812]

Congrats pi!

[e_i_pi]

Looking good!




The only thing I would suggest, is a slight rewording of the ticker along the bottom, to read "South Pole cannot attack adjacent territories, but can bombard the ships."

I'll be reviewing a bunch of minor oddities and changes in a week or so I think. I'm busy with work, coding, and business for about 4-7 days, after which I will have had enough of a rest for graphics (this isn't my only project) to take it up again with a fine-toothed comb.

[RedBaron0]

My first comments as you finish up here... Very well done, unique gameplay, great graphics, and certainly a totally under represented area of the Earth as far as maps are concerned.

Only little addition I'd like to see you make, since you're giving this map a news network sort of feel to it how about adding a little made up news channel looking logo in the bottom right hand corner above the ticker? It'd be an artist kind of addition, totally up to you, but I think it'd complete the over all feel of a news channel-type fancy graphic showing how competing nations are battling over the continent. In fact, CCN(Conquer Club News), would be my suggestion for a network abbreviation. Like I said though, it's just a artistic addition, it doesn't have to be there if you don't want it to be there.

Great work, looking forward to playing!

[reggie_mac]

i have nothing to say but

boom diggity

[e_i_pi]

I'm moving house, and don't have internet for about 2-3 weeks, so while I can work on the map at home, and check CC at work, I can't upload files just yet

[MrBenn]

Final Forge

---The Antarctica Map has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. The map has passed rigorous gameplay and graphics examinations, and major concerns have been addressed. If you have any other concerns, please make your voice heard. If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play. As long as there is still discussion or posts that have yet to be commented on, the map will remain in Final Forge until said discussion has reached the conclusion that the map has reached its final and polished version.

Post questions and concerns if any.