Western Fur Trade V3.6, Pg.7

[isaiah40]

Question: Is 'trading post' synonymous with 'territory'?

Yes it is.

So, is the +1 per 4 territory bonus in addition to the regular +1 per 3 territories, or does it replace it?

It will replace it unless there is a major consensus that it is too much for this small of a map. I could go either way on it. I'm flexible

[isaiah40]

Okay a couple of changes:

- Redid the title
- Rewrote the instructions so that hopefully it is clearer on the attack routes.

Click image to enlarge.

Need to do:

- Work out whether there should be a bonus for gathering furs, I am open for suggestions on this!
- This is all that comes to mind right now - stayed tuned for more!

[natty dread]

"...on the same body of water can atack each other"

Also, I'd suggest you consider changing the font. The original germany revamp had a similar font, and it received loads of complaints about being hard to read.

Also, do you mean that all the posts that are on a river can attack each other, no matter where they are? If not, I suggest changing it to "All posts on the same river can attack each other".

[isaiah40]

New changes for this version 2.2:

- Changed the font (I hope one that is easier to read)
- Moved the story line to the top right
- Moved the Title to the left to accommodate the story line
- Cropped the map down to eliminate the dead space at the bottom of the map
- Result of cropping the map down is that I also reduced the territories down from 58 to 57 (still an optimal number of territories)
- Rewrote the game play instructions to make them clearer (I hope they are)
- Changed some circles to other symbols to facilitate knowing which post can attack which ones; i.e. all the posts on the Pacific Ocean are the same, and all the posts on Hudson's Bay are the same

Need to do:

- Change the river posts so that they have the same symbol (let me know about this one)
- As always your comments and suggestions are needed!!

So with no further delay here is Version 2.2!

Click image to enlarge.

[jefjef]

How about a trail from Fort Astoria OR Fort Nez Perces to Fort Nisqually? Or is travel up the Pacific coast allowed. Guess it is eh?

Like the Chesterfield connect you added.

[natty dread]

The pentagonal army circles could probably be made a bit larger? I'm not sure if those will accommodate the 88:s without them spilling over...

Then again you've probably checked this, it's just that they look a bit small somehow...

How about those sources for furs? They could be territories called "Bear furs", "Fox furs", "Beaver furs" and whatnot... or something like that... Then if you hold a fur source, you get extra bonus for holding trading posts. Something like this:

With no fur sources, you get +1 for every 5 posts.

With 1 fur source, you get an additional +1 for every 4 posts.

With 2 fur sources, you get an additional +1 for every 3 posts.

And so on...

[isaiah40]

Okay here is the newest version.

Changes made:
- Drew in territory borders instead of connecting lines
- Added in furs on some of the trading posts for a +2 bonus
- Rewrote the game play instructions to reflect the furs

Need to do:
Still needing your suggestions and comments!

Click image to enlarge.

[whitestazn88]

whats the point of having multiple shaped army circles? you need to make it uniform throughout, imho. looks good tho

[natty dread]

Kootaney house & Flathead house are missing a border...

[isaiah40]

whats the point of having multiple shaped army circles? you need to make it uniform throughout, imho. looks good tho

The army circles are now uniform!

Kootaney house & Flathead house are missing a border...

Ooops! See new version below!

Well I didn't like the looks of the previous version as I felt it was a step backwards from what I wanted the map to look like.

So here id the new revised version2.4!

Changes:
- Removed the territory border and went back to the fur trading trails (in line with the maps theme)
- Moved the furs slightly under the appropriate army circle so it is easy to tell which posts have the fur storage
- Added a legend box with the bonuses and instructions in it.

Need to do:
- Right now I don't have a clue!

Click image to enlarge.

[ghirrindin]

The thing that really bugs me about that New World map is that it completely misses on the history that it tries to depict. To me it feels like your rendition of the fur trade is heading down precisely that same path.

I can't really put a finger on what time period you're trying to represent, but I have a feeling that it's roughly the nineteenth century... ? ... One thing you need to think about is that the map objectives clash somewhat with what you've put on the board. The vast majority of the posts and forts on your map were, in fact, operated by one single entity - that being the giant Hudson's Bay Company. In it's various forms the fur trade, after all, was a commercial empire. Yet, I don't see any sort of reference to the HBC, or for that matter, the American Fur Company, the XY Company, the North West Company, or French or Russian imperial traders, to name a few examples that existed and contended with each other at various times in the Northwest. If you're going to continue with the project, I think you need to take the historical complexity of your subject into mind, or otherwise you're going to pump out a sloppy product. My opinion is that you should really do some research on the topic before proceeding much further with the gameplay.

Hope you think about my comments and good luck!

[isaiah40]

The thing that really bugs me about that New World map is that it completely misses on the history that it tries to depict. To me it feels like your rendition of the fur trade is heading down precisely that same path.

I can't really put a finger on what time period you're trying to represent, but I have a feeling that it's roughly the nineteenth century... ? ... One thing you need to think about is that the map objectives clash somewhat with what you've put on the board. The vast majority of the posts and forts on your map were, in fact, operated by one single entity - that being the giant Hudson's Bay Company. In it's various forms the fur trade, after all, was a commercial empire. Yet, I don't see any sort of reference to the HBC, or for that matter, the American Fur Company, the XY Company, the North West Company, or French or Russian imperial traders, to name a few examples that existed and contended with each other at various times in the Northwest. If you're going to continue with the project, I think you need to take the historical complexity of your subject into mind, or otherwise you're going to pump out a sloppy product. My opinion is that you should really do some research on the topic before proceeding much further with the gameplay.

Hope you think about my comments and good luck!

Yes I agree, that the majority of the forts were operated by the Hudson's Bay Company. But due to copyright laws I cannot use HBC, Hudson's Bay Company, or Northwest Company names or logos. Yes there is a Northwest Company again, it is a split off from the Hudson's Bay Company, and yes they decided to name that company the same as HBC's old rival. Believe me I wanted to go as historically accurate as possible, but I decided that if I can't use 2 names then I wouldn't use any names. Although I did use the Northwest Companies Coat of Arms on the map since my research I didn't find that the current company was using it.

Also I didn't want to do a map with territories per se, I wanted a map with trails (tho not totally accurate, but for game play they are where they are), and use actual forts and put them as close to their actual locations as possible, and this is the result. I wanted a map that was legible, clean and unclutterd, and I think I have accomplished that goal for right now.

I appreciate your comments and suggestions, so if you have any other suggestions please do not hesitate to let me know!

[ghirrindin]

Yes I agree, that the majority of the forts were operated by the Hudson's Bay Company. But due to copyright laws I cannot use HBC, Hudson's Bay Company, or Northwest Company names or logos.

Ah yes, copyright. How very, very unfortunate. Then perhaps something like English, French, or United States interests? It's really too bad that you can't use the company names and logos considering that the fur trade was a business enterprise. It takes away a lot from the map, but that's not your fault of course.

[isaiah40]

Ah yes, copyright. How very, very unfortunate. Then perhaps something like English, French, or United States interests? It's really too bad that you can't use the company names and logos considering that the fur trade was a business enterprise. It takes away a lot from the map, but that's not your fault of course.

I guess I could leave the map as is but just change the font color for each business and just make up some names. In this way I can keep the "trails" as they are. Any suggestions for the fur companies?

[isaiah40]

Okay here is the new version with bonuses.

Changed:
- Recolored the territory text to reflect bonuses
- Added bonuses to the legend area

Click image to enlarge.

[ghirrindin]

Hey hey, there you go. I don't know what other reactions will be, but I definitely like it much more with the company element in there. I think you could be a little more explicit with your references, even. Perhaps call the "Great Lakes Fur Company" the "Quebec Outfit" or some such label. And if you worry about a lack of connections in the west, I think you could even expand the map slightly in that direction and add a few boats in the ocean for a small Russian empire bonus.

One other small graphical quibble I had (maybe a little too early) but the icon indicating that furs are available at a post is a little confusing. Is that a beaver? Perhaps a silhouette like this: http://depts.washington.edu/natmap/facts/beaver.jpg would clear that up.

Thanks for listening to my comments!

[isaiah40]

Hey hey, there you go. I don't know what other reactions will be, but I definitely like it much more with the company element in there. I think you could be a little more explicit with your references, even. Perhaps call the "Great Lakes Fur Company" the "Quebec Outfit" or some such label. And if you worry about a lack of connections in the west, I think you could even expand the map slightly in that direction and add a few boats in the ocean for a small Russian empire bonus.

One other small graphical quibble I had (maybe a little too early) but the icon indicating that furs are available at a post is a little confusing. Is that a beaver? Perhaps a silhouette like this: http://depts.washington.edu/natmap/facts/beaver.jpg would clear that up.

Thanks for listening to my comments!

Okay how is this with the beaver silhouette? Personally I like it!

Click image to enlarge.

[ghirrindin]

Okay how is this with the beaver silhouette? Personally I like it!

Agreed. I think that looks much better.

[shakeycat]

While we're at it, is there something more interesting than the NWC logo that we can use? It takes a close look to figure out what it is, and I can only tell then by the canoe. Maybe two fellows portaging a canoe instead, in the same two-tone style? Or a group of voyageur, natives, fur-bearing beasts, a trading post, something that is easily recognizable?

[isaiah40]

While we're at it, is there something more interesting than the NWC logo that we can use? It takes a close look to figure out what it is, and I can only tell then by the canoe. Maybe two fellows portaging a canoe instead, in the same two-tone style? Or a group of voyageur, natives, fur-bearing beasts, a trading post, something that is easily recognizable?

I'll take a look around and see what I can find royalty free! Thank you!

[isaiah40]

Okay here is a very minor change, I removed the Coat of Arms and replaced it with a picture of some voyageurs. Hope you like it!

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

Hmm... just one thing: are you planning on replacing the normal "1 troop for 3 territories" bonus with that "1 for every 4 posts" or will it be both?

Because if it's both, then the bonuses will be kinda huge... Let's say you hold Rocky mountain fur, which is 10 territories, including 3 beavers, then that's going to give you: 7 for the continent bonus, 3 for territory bonus, 2 for trading posts bonus and 6 for beavers bonus... that's a total of 18 troops for holding one bonus area, with only 10 territories...

Even if you remove the territory bonus, there's still a minimum of 1, so it's going to be 16 troops every turn...

So the bonuses should probably be adjusted...

[isaiah40]

Hmm... just one thing: are you planning on replacing the normal "1 troop for 3 territories" bonus with that "1 for every 4 posts" or will it be both?

Because if it's both, then the bonuses will be kinda huge... Let's say you hold Rocky mountain fur, which is 10 territories, including 3 beavers, then that's going to give you: 7 for the continent bonus, 3 for territory bonus, 2 for trading posts bonus and 6 for beavers bonus... that's a total of 18 troops for holding one bonus area, with only 10 territories...

Even if you remove the territory bonus, there's still a minimum of 1, so it's going to be 16 troops every turn...

So the bonuses should probably be adjusted...

Yes 1 "Fur Trader" for every 4 trading posts, not the standard 1 for every 3.

Yes the bonuses are probably high considering that you can collect the furs as well. Any suggestions on the bonuses?

[The Neon Peon]

Sorry about all graphics comments, I'm not good at judging gameplay.

I absolutely love what you've done with the mountains. Fantastic work, they really add some style to the map. I'd be interested in seeing something done to the rivers. They look fine as is, but looking at the rest of the map, I have a feeling you can come up with something better.

The Beavers stand out a bit too much from the overall color scheme. Tone them down to brown or some such thing. The pure black makes them really prominent.

I don't like the labeling of the large bodies of water. There's just not enough space in the Great Lakes or the Pacific, or any of the other lakes that you've left unnamed, to make it look good. I'd just say leave them all blank rather than having only some named and those squeezed in there under territory names.

I really don't like the box in the top right corner. It is rather unnecessary and adds a really shallow plot to something that does not need one. I'd suggest just getting rid of it. With the new space, I think you could come up with a really amazing title.

And lastly, I really like the pink and grey color scheme. I was a bit unsure when I first started following the map, but it looks really nice. Would have never thought of that.

[isaiah40]

Sorry about all graphics comments, I'm not good at judging gameplay.

It's not a problem, that's what this forum is for!

I absolutely love what you've done with the mountains. Fantastic work, they really add some style to the map. I'd be interested in seeing something done to the rivers. They look fine as is, but looking at the rest of the map, I have a feeling you can come up with something better.

Thank you, I agree the rivers could be done different. On the flip side, as the rivers where important during the fur trade, I will leave them the way they are, unless someone can WOW me with something different.

The Beavers stand out a bit too much from the overall color scheme. Tone them down to brown or some such thing. The pure black makes them really prominent.

I was thinking this before I read this "those beavers are way too distracting". So I changed the color from black to brown, no the blend in and yet still are readily visible!

I don't like the labeling of the large bodies of water. There's just not enough space in the Great Lakes or the Pacific, or any of the other lakes that you've left unnamed, to make it look good. I'd just say leave them all blank rather than having only some named and those squeezed in there under territory names.

I really don't like the box in the top right corner. It is rather unnecessary and adds a really shallow plot to something that does not need one. I'd suggest just getting rid of it. With the new space, I think you could come up with a really amazing title.

Removed the names, and removed the bland story line (I reread it and had to agree with you on how bland and shallow it was). I then enlarged the title and the canoe along with moving them to the right a bit, the canoe a little more than a tad bit

And lastly, I really like the pink and grey color scheme. I was a bit unsure when I first started following the map, but it looks really nice. Would have never thought of that.

And again thank you, I actually got the colors from an 1800's map I used as a template for this map, wasn't exact but the colors are close enough!

So without further delay, here is version2.8 for your viewing pleasure!

Click image to enlarge.