Operation Market Garden

[army of nobunaga]

I've got an idea to make sure the map still looks aesthetically congruent when you're done with it. Since "fast" territories are going to be multiple hexes, they are bound to look a little weird. Create the full map with hex, then fudge the borders to be slightly more organic and perhaps mute the Weird look. It might work, it might not, but we can always find out, right?

thats a good Idea if I understand you

[00iCon]

I've got an idea to make sure the map still looks aesthetically congruent when you're done with it. Since "fast" territories are going to be multiple hexes, they are bound to look a little weird. Create the full map with hex, then fudge the borders to be slightly more organic and perhaps mute the Weird look. It might work, it might not, but we can always find out, right?

Yeah, that's what i meant, i just couldn't find the words to put it in!

[lt_oddball]

For now a short remark as I want to link it in my postings.

I like the Market Garden game. Someone tried it a while ago but aborted it (in an early stage..so nothing's wasted).


1) Think carefully what Market Garden battle you want to model.
Only Arnhem ground battles area?
Or the whole UK-arnhem, US Nijmegen, US Grave, UK30thCrp Eindhoven map ?
The latter is difficult and probably impractical because of the stretched map (tip.. curve the map from a tall "I" to a "C" shape with the "border" between the "C"legs being Germany.)

2) How to incorporate the air strategy in it ? And is it possible to incorporate an air dominance/superiority in the map ?
Yes: make a separate map territory sequence (Airsuperiority chart"). The more fields you gain there , the more air superiority you have such that when you gain a (start as neutral) territory halfway in the middle (/or at ends?) you have reached a parachuting-connecting link to the map (for the allies) or a ju88 bombardment-link to the map (for the axis).

Likewise you can make Flak/AA gun hexes on the map which control of it means a bombardment link to the "airsuperiority chart".
And an airfield hex (North of Arnhem: Deelen airfield for Axis..the allied one can be named anything (London/Brussels)) to gain a stepstone to the airsuperiority chart.


The interesting game balance choice is then to either go for the ground battles or for the airsuperiority chart first for the road to victory.

[lt_oddball]

in addition to the above:

You go for the whole Market Garden approach..that's impressive.
But realize you make this CCgame primarily for more than 2 players.
And to have a map with all too fixed /rigid map patterns (decay at many places...only a thin stretch of road being hunted after by all players) and a concept for really only two adversaries (drop point allies, drop point axis) could hamper this map to a dull game after a couple of plays.
Like you said the risk is that the players in the axis drop zone fight it out first amongst themselves..and the same for the allied players.

You must make it interesting/worthwhile for each of the 8 players to find an individual path to win the map.
The previously mentioned Airsuperiority chart adds to that effect.

Thus I am not in favour of decay hexes for merely difficult terrain (after all..your troops don't die because of ploughing through a marsh). The only effect marshes, off road and on-road can have in a CCmap is speed/reach.
Fast moveable hexes (roads) should be linked together to one field/territory.
So, marsh/wood = 1 hex = 1 territory
Field, Grass, cultivation, city = 2 hex = 1 territory
Road = 3 hex (in line) = 1 territory.


You could place the airsuperiority chart smack in the middle between the Legs of the "C" map.



Driel------Arnhem --- Oosterbeek--deelen
I .........................^
Nijmegen (Air Superiority Chart )
I....v.....................V
Groesbeek --- Grave --Veghel--Eindhoven

And instead of an Air Superiority chart (paradrops, control over skies, bombers, Flak hits) you can enlarge that concept to supply/support dominance Chart (paradrops, control over skies AND supply, Panzers from Germany/repair stations, bombers, flakhits, artillery hits on supply lines).
A sort of "über"control body concept ; the more you gain in this chart the more you are able to drop paras at certain maplocations (Oosterbeek, Groesbeek, Veghel) , the more you can pour panzer reinforcements in Arnhem/Groesbeek area, the more you can move 30th Crps troops into Eindhoven, the more you can Ju88 bombard certain maplocations, the more you can artillery barrage bombard certain road hexes..

Annd from the groundmap going INTO the Support Superiority Chart via;
Airstrips (control = fighter airplanes), Flak and AA hexes (bombard to neutral certain Sup Chart hexes).

All this makes it more fluid, and each of the 8 players should be able to control a certain area of the gameboard and be able to conquer the map with a fairly equal chance of succes.

[tzor]

I like this idea; I've been really busy the past week or so but I'll try to look into integrating this into the design.

[lt_oddball]

and to add a remark on the problem with 8 players in the "traditional" long stretched map (semi-1 dimensional route):
For sure after 5 of the 8 players are eliminated you'll find 1 player dominant in the bottom of the map, another in the top and the third in the middle.
It goes without saying that the one in the middle loses..and so the automatic strategy for victory would be to seize control of the top or bottom of the map. Which naturally leads to these fights amongst axis players in the top, and fights between allied players in the bottom..

So to avoid this you simply have to make an extra "route" (like a connection between australia and south america in the traditional Risk map).
And that Supply/Air superiority Chart is a good answer to the problem.



At first I thought such a Supply Superiority (ss oh dear) Chart needed to be linear but in fact you can shape it in any field of hexes with bottle neck hexes with special meaning , and the one way entry hexes (fighter planes, a/o flak bombardment) and exit hexes (paradrop, Ju88bombers, Concentrated Artillery Firing Hex, panzers) can be placed anywhere (at far ends of the field? somewhere in the centre of the field?).



Question is are we bothered by the fact that a "german" profiling player would seize control over the SSC and is thus able to "paradrop" troops on the battle map?
Maybe it is a question of interpreting the exit hex as paradrop for "allies" and "panzergrenadier formations" for the "german" player.
Perhaps a better idea: you should make (a) one way bottleneck hex(es) in the SSC such that a "german" player can only control one half of the SSC (Panzer pouring in, JU88 bombardments, Artillery attack on certain hexes) and the "allied" player can only control the other half (para drops, Eindhoven pouring in, Artillery barrage on certain road hexes).
To enter the other half of the SSC you must control/conquer the battle map (Allies should seize the German Airfield in Deelen..the German player should seize the Allied airfield near Eindhoven...so that rules out "London" or "Brussels"#..I guess Maastricht is better ?
(((edit: I realise suddenly that in that case I have recreated the same covered backs problem...but maybe with some clever one-way links /bombardment links inside the SSC you can tweak it)))



#I looked it up: Chièvres Airfield S-W under Brussels was used by US and Uk airunits... around sept 1944..but effectively as a P47 force only after october 1944....ah wel..

[fumandomuerte]

You can use some ideas from the flames of war board.

[lt_oddball]

You can use some ideas from the flames of war board.

oh dear, they forgot about the polish paras -again-

[00iCon]

I just thought this up out of nowhere.
If you want the players to dictate the battle themselves, have starting positions, HQ's, with about 10, which are able to pick a main strategy, land or paradrop for USA, sea and para for britain, land(train) or para for germany. there are also 'pockets of resistance' i.e. randomly spread player troops among neutal territiories already on the map.
You could have a slightly more circular map, in which one must attack all the way to one end to attack an HQ. I'm thinking circluar because britain is somewher to the left, rather than directly south, and Germany isn't directly north. Parachutes drop rather close to the middle, and the close-by AA bombard these (ground) territories directly. Paras are for a quick attack, whereas a land/sea route is taken when a player wishes to work his way through bonus territories amd supply routes.
Of course, you don't have to implement this, it just allows players to write their own history if that's what you want.

[uptothemax]

Hi,

Firstly I 'll like to add some historical remarks on the Operation Market Garden .

The strategy:

Cross the river Rhine - at Arnhem
Use para troops to capture vital bridges
Try to rush towards Arnhem on the ground too

But alas

Bad weather prevented massive air support
The Allied tanks on the corridor, which led along the bridges, could easily be attacked by a few 88 mm guns - which could used as AA as well as anti tank gun.
The II German Panzer Corps was regrouping in the neighbourhood of Arnhem and Eindhoven. German tanks were in 1944 mostly superior to Allied tanks as long as the weather was to prevent Allied Air support.

As to your 'hex based approach'... it does not reflect the Dutch landscape nor the battle itself.
Highways.

I hope this info stimulates you to design a nice 'OMG' CC map.

uptothemax

[00iCon]

Here's a good idea to consider implementing.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=124352