Eurasia Map [Old thread]

[natty dread]

Impassable between Romania/Hungary

Click image to enlarge.

[AndyDufresne]

Sorry ... quick question!
Why do you have the continent values so high?? 7 seens a bit steep to me ... what sort of games will be played on it? Team?

Not sure what the "norm" is here

Those 7's may seem high, until you realize you have about 7 borders to defend for those bonus zones.


--Andy

[natty dread]

Right. So, if there's no other impassables to add, we could get crackin' on the bonus values... here's what I think of them right now:

- The ones in The West look pretty good to me, maybe Mediterranean could be lowered to 4 and Nordics upped to 5 though.

- Eastern Europe also looks good as is to me.

- As for Near East... Arabia seems undervalued, could be increased to 4 or even 5. And the whole superbonus to 20.

- Indian Peninsula and S.E. Asia both look ok to me. West India, hm, maybe it could be increased to 5, but it could also stay the same, I don't know.

- Eastern Asia: Manchuria might be increased to 4, maybe? Due to the 1-way border... And West China should maybe be a 5. The whole superbonus could then be increased to 21 or 22.

- East Siberia could maybe be lowered to 6.

[BadgerJelly]

Well it seems to me the only place worth placing on this map is India or SE Asia. With super bonuses and 4 or 5 choke holds they'd be tough to break ... guess thats what everyone else has to stop though

The "super bonus" is new tome so take what I say with a pinch of salt

[natty dread]

SE is maybe a bit high, I could lower both bonuses to 3 and the superbonus to 7, since it's in the corner like that. But the area still has 5 borders to defend so I'm not too worried about it. So does India.

Indias bonus looks pretty good, it's more in the middle and there's ways in from all over.

Middle East could maybe be increased to 7. Also the Eastern Europe superbonus could maybe be increased to 9.

[natty dread]

Ok, here's what I think about the bonus values. Let me know how this looks.

• The West 21
  West Europe 3
  British Islands 2
  Central Europe 4
  Mediterranean 4
  Nordics 5
  
  
• Eastern Europe 9
  East Europe 4
  Southeast Europe 4
  
  
• Near East 22
  Arabia 4
  Middle East 7
  Kazakhstan 4
  Turkics 4
  
  
• Indian Peninsula 8
  West India 4
  East India 3
  
  
• S.E. Asia 7
  Indochina 3
  East Indies 3
  
  
• Eastern Asia 22 or 23
  Mongolia 2
  Manchuria 4
  West China 5
  East China 5
  Far East 3
  
  
• Russia 29 or 30
  European Russia 7
  Central Russia 7
  West Siberia 7
  East Siberia 4

[Geger]

@natty : did you count the bonuses by using this tool : viewtopic.php?f=127&t=29096&p=744944 ??

With the tool I got (almost) the same bonuses for Europe and Russia, but different for Asia (especially Mongolia). Note : I added -1 to reduce the big bonus in column M

I put the results in "( )", and my suggestions after ">>" :

Ok, here's what I think about the bonus values. Let me know how this looks.

• The West 21
  West Europe 3 (3.08) >> 3
  British Islands 2 (1.58) >> 2
  Central Europe 4 (4.25) >> 4
  Mediterranean 4 (4.42) >> 4
  Nordics 5 (4.58) >> 4 or 5
  
  
• Eastern Europe 9
  East Europe 4 (3.92) >> 4
  Southeast Europe 4 (4.50) >> 4 or 5
  
  
• Near East 22
  Arabia 4 (4.58) >> 4 or 5
  Middle East 7 (6.33) >> 6
  Kazakhstan 4 (4.08) >> 4
  Turkics 4 (4.92) >> 5
  
  
• Indian Peninsula 8
  West India 4 (4.92) >> 5
  East India 3 (3.67) >> 4
  
  
• S.E. Asia 7
  Indochina 3 (4.42) >> 4
  East Indies 3 (2.92) >> 3
  
  
• Eastern Asia 22 or 23
  Mongolia 2 (3.83) >> 4
  Manchuria 4 (3.17) >> 3
  West China 5 (6.00) >> 6
  East China 5 (5.58) >> 5 or 6
  Far East 3 (3.17) >> 3
  
  
• Russia 29 or 30
  European Russia 7 (7.25) >> 7
  Central Russia 7 (7.08) >> 7
  West Siberia 7 (7.33) >> 7
  East Siberia 4 (3.58) >> 3 or 4

[natty dread]

@natty : did you count the bonuses by using this tool

No, I don't use those. The bonus calculators are based on simple algorithms, and are far from infallible... I'd rather follow my own judgement and experience than some tool.

The problem with the tools is that they consider each bonus in a vacuum. And in actual gameplay, bonuses never exist in a vacuum - they coexist and interact with each other. For an example - you could have a bonus that is, by a bonus calculator, worth 5 - but let's say you're able to take one extra territory and reduce the borders of that bonus by half, then the bonus would be way overvalued by the calculations. And that's just one example, there's countless of other situations and factors that can affect the dynamics between bonus areas.

[BadgerJelly]

The best balanced map you can have is an unbalanced one MEANING it has some areas stronger than others that are worth fighting for. A perfectly balanced map with equal reos (reinforcements) everywhere only incourages stalemates.

Cannot wait to play this map btw.

[natty dread]

The best balanced map you can have is an unbalanced one MEANING it has some areas stronger than others that are worth fighting for. A perfectly balanced map with equal reos (reinforcements) everywhere only incourages stalemates.

Not really. Perfectly balanced is not the same as perfectly symmetrical. While it's true that slight unbalances can add some flavor to the map, a really unbalanced map encourages games that are determined by luck and not strategy.

Balance means that the bonus values are proportional to the bonus areas relative worth, which is determined by it's territory & border count, location, expansion potential and some other factors. It also means that no one part of the map has a significant advantage to another, so that games won't be decided by who drops where. Balance doesn't cause stalemates, but symmetry and too closed or open gameplay can. Also, on some game types, they happen on almost any map.

[BadgerJelly]

The best balanced map you can have is an unbalanced one MEANING it has some areas stronger than others that are worth fighting for. A perfectly balanced map with equal reos (reinforcements) everywhere only incourages stalemates.

Not really. Perfectly balanced is not the same as perfectly symmetrical. While it's true that slight unbalances can add some flavor to the map, a really unbalanced map encourages games that are determined by luck and not strategy.

Balance means that the bonus values are proportional to the bonus areas relative worth, which is determined by it's territory & border count, location, expansion potential and some other factors. It also means that no one part of the map has a significant advantage to another, so that games won't be decided by who drops where. Balance doesn't cause stalemates, but symmetry and too closed or open gameplay can. Also, on some game types, they happen on almost any map.

Thats what I meant
Also need to look at how many chokes there are. Thats why I said India with 4 chokes for 17 reinforcements is pretty big IMO but I'm really not familiar with this Bonus thing so I'll just shut up and wait to play on it

btw started a Poker Game too if anyones interested??

[natty dread]

Indian Peninsula has 5 borders and gets a +8 bonus.

[BadgerJelly]

Indian Peninsula has 5 borders and gets a +8 bonus.

Pakistan, Tibet, MYANMAR and Sri Lanka.

[natty dread]

Myanmar & Tibet are not part of Indian Peninsula, so they're only available if they're not contested by another player holding those bonuses.

[natty dread]

Anyway, I changed the impassables slightly.

Click image to enlarge.

Also, some tweaking of the bonus values...

The West 21
West Europe 3
British Islands 2
Central Europe 4
Mediterranean 4
Nordics 5

Eastern Europe 9
East Europe 4
Southeast Europe 4

Near East 22
Arabia 4
Middle East 7
Kazakhstan 4
Turkics 4

Indian Peninsula 8
West India 4
East India 3

S.E. Asia 7
Indochina 3
East Indies 3

Eastern Asia 23
Mongolia 3
Manchuria 4
West China 5
East China 5
Far East 3

Russia 30
European Russia 7
Central Russia 7
West Siberia 7
East Siberia 4

[Geger]

@natty : did you count the bonuses by using this tool

No, I don't use those. The bonus calculators are based on simple algorithms, and are far from infallible... I'd rather follow my own judgement and experience than some tool.

The problem with the tools is that they consider each bonus in a vacuum. And in actual gameplay, bonuses never exist in a vacuum - they coexist and interact with each other. For an example - you could have a bonus that is, by a bonus calculator, worth 5 - but let's say you're able to take one extra territory and reduce the borders of that bonus by half, then the bonus would be way overvalued by the calculations. And that's just one example, there's countless of other situations and factors that can affect the dynamics between bonus areas.

I see. I'm fine with that.

But I think we can calculate the bonuses this way : using the tools, getting rational numbers, and then decide with the extra variables you described above, whether these numbers shall be rounded up or down. Let's see what we got :

The West 21
West Europe 3 (3.08)
British Islands 2 (1.58)
Central Europe 4 (4.25)
Mediterranean 4 (4.42)
Nordics 5 (4.58)

Eastern Europe 9
East Europe 4 (3.92)
Southeast Europe 4 (4.50)

Near East 22
Arabia 4 (4.58)
Middle East 7 (6.33)
Kazakhstan 4 (4.08)
Turkics 4 (4.92)

Indian Peninsula 8
West India 4 (4.42)
East India 3 (2.92)

S.E. Asia 7
Indochina 3 (4.42)
East Indies 3 (2.92)

Eastern Asia 23
Mongolia 3 (3.83)
Manchuria 4 (3.17)
West China 5 (6.00)
East China 5 (5.58)
Far East 3 (3.17)

Russia 30
European Russia 7 (7.25)
Central Russia 7 (7.08)
West Siberia 7 (7.33)
East Siberia 4 (3.58)

Note : In every line, the first numbers are from your last suggestion, and the second are from the tools.

As we can see, we get the same results, except in 1 region : Indochina. With the tool give 4.42, but you give only 3 bonus for this region.

Let's compare this with Manchuria as an opposite example. Why Manchuria? Because the tool give 3.17, but you give 4 for this region :

- Manchuria : 3 territories, 3 territories to defend the bonus, 6 territories can attack the bonus, and 3 other bonuses as neighbor.

- Indochina : 6 territories, 4 territories to defend the bonus, 6 territories can attack the bonus, and 4 other bonuses as neighbor.

Now let's add another variable : number of single territories, that can be taken without expand the borders :

- Manchuria : can take only North Korea without expand the borders

- Mongolia : can take only Sichuan without expand the borders

Hm... I think it's clear that Indochina should have higher bonus than Manchuria. What do you think about 4 bonus for Indochina and 3 for Manchuria?

[natty dread]

But I think we can calculate the bonuses this way : using the tools, getting rational numbers, and then decide with the extra variables you described above, whether these numbers shall be rounded up or down.

The bonus calculator algorithm only takes each bonus as a separate entity, counts the number of territories, borders and some other values, and spews out a number. It doesn't analyze the gameplay of the map as a whole, it doesn't take in account the other bonuses or combinations of bonuses when it makes those calculations. Therefore those numbers are fundamentally flawed.

So no, I'm not going to trust those numbers even with a +/-0.5 error margin.

Let's compare this with Manchuria as an opposite example. Why Manchuria? Because the tool give 3.17, but you give 4 for this region :

- Manchuria : 3 territories

Manchuria has 4 territories.

I think it's clear that Indochina should have higher bonus than Manchuria. What do you think about 4 bonus for Indochina and 3 for Manchuria?

Frankly I think it sucks. Southeast Asia would be overvalued if either Indochina or East Indies were increased. And your calculations for Manchuria are obviously wrong since it has 4 territories.

[koontz1973]

Which 2 regions does south Nei Mongolia belong to. It looks like Manchuria and east China but with the impassable there, not sure.

[natty dread]

It's like the colours say.

[Geger]

Azz... Manchuria has 4 territories!? I must be colorblind. I though Nei Mongolia belongs to Mongolia (because of the name) and East China. My bad, but I think I'm not alone.

I think something must be done, to avoid the same mistake in the future. You know, this is like Hawaii in world2.1, part of Oceania or North America

Hm.. I have to fix my first calculation.

Edit : ...and I got 4.17 for Manchuria and 2.92 for Mongolia. The problem solved

And about Indochina, that has only 3 not 4 is okay for me. Africa in Classic has 3 bonuses too for 6 territories ha ha ha.

Gameplay Stamp please...

[natty dread]

I think it's pretty clear. The colour of the area is clearly different from Mongolia, and the Northern part of Nei Mongol is a part of Manchuria.

[natty dread]

Anyway, here's the image with updated bonus values, and temporary impassables.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

Funny thing, btw: you can divide the entire map into 4 areas which each gives equal bonus.

Russia - 30
The West + Eastern Europe - 30
Near East + Indian Peninsula - 30
Eastern Asia + Southeast Asia - 30

[Geger]

I think it's pretty clear. The colour of the area is clearly different from Mongolia, and the Northern part of Nei Mongol is a part of Manchuria.

Yes, it's clear if I see on my 19" monitor. But usually I play CC on my 10.1" notebook

show

Funny thing, btw: you can divide the entire map into 4 areas which each gives equal bonus.

Russia - 30
The West + Eastern Europe - 30
Near East + Indian Peninsula - 30
Eastern Asia + Southeast Asia - 30

That is cool. A lot easier to remember

[natty dread]

Well, I could swap the colours of Mongolia & Manchuria, but I'm not sure if that would help anything...