HP: fight for freedom. Game over. Wizards won.

[spiesr]

Assuming Sparticus is being truthful, there is still only minimal utility to his role. And his claim and defense have not done much to convince me that he's telling the truth.

Right
Anyhow, it looks like that I forgot that unvotes are required in this game. Let me try this again.
Unvote Vote Sparatcus2

[Nebuchadnezer]

Vote Count:

Nebuchadnezer(3): Spiers, Dazza, SpartaV2

L-3SpartaV2(6): Safari, Strike wolf, Chapcrap, everywhere, Pancakemix, thehippo8

Everywhere(1): Djfireside

Strike Wolf(1): Nebuchdnezee

PancakeMix(1): McHammer

16 alive, 9 to lynch. deadline in 2 days and shall be considered a no lynch ( if the deadline is reached ).

Fine. I concede. I gave my arguments. I'm sure there is a mafia or two in this vote, but let's call it.

VOTE UNVOTE SPARTACUS V2

[Nebuchadnezer]

Lol...got that backwards...

UNVOTE VOTE SPARTACUS V2

[thehippo8]

[Djfireside]

I still dont believe lynching him is the best but with a deadline and no other real option and eventually we will have to kill him, Im going to read back again for anything else that may help but I feel that it is a losing battle and while I would love the information, a wasted day on this to only have to do it again later on and waste that lynch for a No Lynch today would more than likely hinder us. They stated themselves eventually it will have to be done.

Judging by the points I remember in my quick run through, I was want to review what someone stated, sorry didnt save the quote, as to the information he gets may be worthless since he is just randomly moving about and want to go reread

[SPARTACUS1974]

well i think thats me dead i will keep a close eye on the game but please slow down on killing your own town the mod said this game would be hard it is for town but they are making it easy for scum by lynching your own each day , on the next day just because its not how it went in the books dont just dismiss it because if you do you will just keep killing your own , there will be roles that you would not expect to be in it . thanks again neb for fighting my corner you saw the full picture . gg all and come on town .

[Iron Butterfly]

Vote count?

Doesn't seem like we can deter people from voting for SPART...I think this is a huge opportunity gone for us. Fine. Let's end this day.

I'm not seeing how this is a huge opportunity. If Sparticus could direct his night actions, he might have some utility. But not only are they apparently randomly directed, he can only use them every other night. So not only is that halving the possible results we could get, it also doesn't allow us to really get quality information related to people we want to investigate.

For example, investigating mc could be a good idea due to his relative lack of activity. But even if Sparticus wanted to investigate him, he would only have a 1/15 chance of actually doing so.

Assuming Sparticus is being truthful, there is still only minimal utility to his role. And his claim and defense have not done much to convince me that he's telling the truth.

Knowing if someone is Town or Mafia and their role PLUS knowing the roles of those who target the random person is hardly minimal utility, which is why there is a steep price. It is random because it can be very powerful. I am not sure why you are down playing what he can do. Is it a gamble in what it can discover? yes. But it can also deter Mafia and make them think twice.

[spiesr]

Knowing if someone is Town or Mafia and their role PLUS knowing the roles of those who target the random person is hardly minimal utility, which is why there is a steep price. It is random because it can be very powerful.

Is that really what he is claiming he will find? He has been so incredibly unclear about it all that I am not sure. Can you find me the quote where he says that he learns the roles of both his random target and anyone who targets that person?

[Nebuchadnezer]

You are Severus Snape ( Wizard Hunter )

You always had a fond for dark magic, soon recruited to the deatheaters in your youth,but you came to realize the true side you needed to be on when you joined Albus who had no respect for such magic.
So now you follow Albus' wishes and fight against the dark lord and his deatheaters.
green part.

my power is every other night i get moved around randomly with another wizard good and bad so if a deatheater tries to block us ,bus us , well any night activity i find out there roles.
the downside is as im using dark magic this is not good i can only use this info for a few times before i turn and go back to the dark side and rejoin the deatheaters.

the role can be very usefull to town if only for the first couple of nights to get info then after that before i turn you have to kill me i do not know the exact amount of times i can use this power but im guessing not to many between 2or3.

thats all i can say about my role without getting mod killed lol.


i suggest taking a look at the ones who are still screaming for a lynch.

Holy crap, spiesr...you're voting to lynch him and you can't even go back and read what he's posted? This is ridiculous. It took me 2 minutes! Talk about a lazy lynch. If this is the type of effort you're putting in...

UNVOTE

Get someone else to go along with your crappy lynch.

[spiesr]

my power is every other night i get moved around randomly with another wizard good and bad so if a deatheater tries to block us ,bus us , well any night activity i find out there roles.

Holy crap, spiesr...you're voting to lynch him and you can't even go back and read what he's posted? This is ridiculous. It took me 2 minutes! Talk about a lazy lynch. If this is the type of effort you're putting in...

No, I have read that post and everything. The issue is that from what I can make out, that line in no way indicates that he learns the roles of both his random target and everyone who targets that target. At least it doesn't say that in any unambiguous way.

Knowing if someone is Town or Mafia and their role PLUS knowing the roles of those who target the random person is hardly minimal utility, which is why there is a steep price. It is random because it can be very powerful.

Is that really what he is claiming he will find? He has been so incredibly unclear about it all that I am not sure. Can you find me the quote where he says that he learns the roles of both his random target and anyone who targets that person?

Iron Butterfly seems to know that he learns the roles of all these, but I can't find exactly where he came to that conclusion. So I asked for the post he was basing it off of. I have seen several different versions of interpretations of how his role works, but no consistent consensus.

[Djfireside]

I guess it can be interpretted a few different ways, I think they way that it is phrased leaves a bit.

The problem with it is, it is vague at best. I like information however I can get it and since they can provide some it makes sense to test the theory but how its being described I am not sure what to make it of it now.

It seems as though he is a random watcher that should automatically hit someone who does something based on how he puts it but the mechanics are unfamiliar which I guess is everyone problem and may be our downfall since there seems to be alot of extra working parts in this while makes it a good game, also makes it damn confusing

The one thing that is getting me about the whole thing is every other night he is moved around, based on this I would have to assume the first night he would have gone as it seems that it is a uncontrolled power and why would it trigger the second night?

The more I read into it the more confused I get. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt and try to see if they can help but the more questions I try to answer the more I get.

[pancakemix]

Holy crap, spiesr...you're voting to lynch him and you can't even go back and read what he's posted? This is ridiculous. It took me 2 minutes! Talk about a lazy lynch. If this is the type of effort you're putting in...

UNVOTE

Get someone else to go along with your crappy lynch.

You need to relax. Seriously. I'm on this lynch for exactly the same reason: I don't know what on earth Spart is claiming. That's partly because he's being obtuse and partly because he outright contradicts himself. After pages of saying one thing, he says another. I think that's a perfectly good reason to lynch someone.

Interesting how your vote patterns seem to be all about you. One minute you're saying "Alright I've had enough. Let's lynch Sparta". Next, you're saying "I can't believe you'd be so lazy!" Problems I have with this:

1. Your "I give up" vote was extremely lazy itself. You stuck to your guns all day (quite aggressively, I might add), but then you just say "Eh, I'm done." Rather than keeping a strong opinion, you've opted to take the easy way out. I typically find this kind of flip strange, and for good reason, as it raises more than a few questions about your motivations. Were you actually advocating Sparta's utility? Or were you fighting for him to build rapport with town so that when he flipped you could say "I told you so"?

2. You unvote Spart because spiesr is lazy. Keep in mind, I've just explained how your vote was lazy in the first place. This unvote makes you a hypocrite in addition to being lazy. Now, continuing onward:

- You make it sound like Spiesr should know the exact post in particular that is being talked about. Spiesr had just before mentioned the sever lack of clarity in Sparta's claim. It's understandable he wouldn't get this.

- Spiesr essentially said "Prove it". Not "go find it for me", not "I don't feel like it", "prove it". "I don't believe you", he said. (Spiesr, correct me if I'm wrong. If so, disregard this point)

- What you quoted does not say what IB said it says. At least, not to my reading, which can discern any possible number of meanings to this sentence. Look:

my power is every other night i get moved around randomly with another wizard good and bad so if a deatheater tries to block us ,bus us , well any night activity i find out there roles.

Let's try to break this down and see if it is in any way coherent. (Spoilers: it isn't)

my power is every other night i get moved around randomly with another wizard good and bad

What does randomly moved around mean? You get bussed? You visit them? What? I can at least tell this is random, and I'd assume passive which, as has been mentioned many times, destroys the utility.

so if a deatheater tries to block us ,bus us ,

Who is "us"? You and the other wizard? Town in general? Does this target a collective or a single person?

well any night activity i find out there roles.

Whose roles? The other wizard's? Anyone who targets you? The collective? WHAT DOES YOUR ROLE DO?

And later he said he didn't become a Deatheater. He said he just died. THEN he said he just straight up lost. So what happens? Do you turn into a stump? What?

Now that was a bit more of an extended divergence than I would have liked, but do you see how someone would get frustrated by this? How they could be confused as to what this role actually is?

- But rather than politely picking out said post and explaining its meaning, you flip out and unvote for the most inexplicable of reasons. Your logic in this post and your post before makes no sense whatsoever.

Now I'm completely uncertain to what your motive was the entire time. You defended Spart the whole day, then gave up and voted him, then unvoted him for no real reason. It's about as comprehensible as Spart's claim itself.

[safariguy5]

I also note that as of the last vote count, only 12 people are voting. If we have a good number of submariners/inactives, we may not be able to get any lynches in the future even if we do have an airtight case (like a guilty investigation).

[everywhere116]

You are Severus Snape ( Wizard Hunter )

You always had a fond for dark magic, soon recruited to the deatheaters in your youth,but you came to realize the true side you needed to be on when you joined Albus who had no respect for such magic.
So now you follow Albus' wishes and fight against the dark lord and his deatheaters.
green part.

my power is every other night i get moved around randomly with another wizard good and bad so if a deatheater tries to block us ,bus us , well any night activity i find out there roles.
the downside is as im using dark magic this is not good i can only use this info for a few times before i turn and go back to the dark side and rejoin the deatheaters.

the role can be very usefull to town if only for the first couple of nights to get info then after that before i turn you have to kill me i do not know the exact amount of times i can use this power but im guessing not to many between 2or3.

thats all i can say about my role without getting mod killed lol.


i suggest taking a look at the ones who are still screaming for a lynch.

Holy crap, spiesr...you're voting to lynch him and you can't even go back and read what he's posted? This is ridiculous. It took me 2 minutes! Talk about a lazy lynch. If this is the type of effort you're putting in...

UNVOTE

Get someone else to go along with your crappy lynch.

Nah, that's not what speisr meant. He meant "I don't believe you, if you want me to, find the quote", not "Do my work for me".

You can't prove a negative, and if someone asserts a positive the burden of proof is on the person asserting said positive.

I love formal logic.

[thehippo8]

@ everywhere ... oohh a newb philosopher in our midst! Look at this and this and this and this and this.

Hmmm, I wonder where that leaves you?

[everywhere116]

So basically you're saying that you can prove a negative in a finite area/space, such as this thread? That makes sense, but I'm not sure what the comment "Where does that leave you" is supposed to mean, considering that it doesn't change the veracity of my main statement fact that Neb misconstrued speisr's statement.

[Bleed_Green]

The problem that I am seeing with spartacus's role is that the only time that he gets any information about someone is if that person that he targeted that evening. If that person that he was switched with is not targeted then he comes back empty handed. He is like a VT unless the random gods help him out. As well we can say forsure that we have him until N6,, by rights the mod can turn him after tonight if they wanted to and we would still be sitting waiting for the possibility of him turning. As for his WC I do not understand it and would really like for him to come back and clarify.

As previously asked:

Ok Sparticus, so you're saying that when Snape turns into a Death Eater, you "lose".

What does that mean? Does it mean you die and you lose even if town wins?

Does it mean you win if town wins?

Or is there some other specific event that has to happen in order for you to win?

Your Response:

well i think thats me dead i will keep a close eye on the game but please slow down on killing your own town the mod said this game would be hard it is for town but they are making it easy for scum by lynching your own each day , on the next day just because its not how it went in the books dont just dismiss it because if you do you will just keep killing your own , there will be roles that you would not expect to be in it . thanks again neb for fighting my corner you saw the full picture . gg all and come on town .

VOTE Spartacus his actions for completely dismissing everyone for trying to get information, you previously contradicted your role post but came back. Then when people asked what you found out night 1 you did not answer them, and continued to dismiss any requests for which nights your actions worked odd or even, if you would have even stated that you did not do an action N1 it would be easier to identify that you would be even nights but you did not do that. Now when a question was asked about your WC once again you dismiss and it and just say Oh Well... from your actions you have not been pro-town.

[SPARTACUS1974]

The problem that I am seeing with spartacus's role is that the only time that he gets any information about someone is if that person that he targeted that evening. If that person that he was switched with is not targeted then he comes back empty handed. He is like a VT unless the random gods help him out. As well we can say forsure that we have him until N6,, by rights the mod can turn him after tonight if they wanted to and we would still be sitting waiting for the possibility of him turning. As for his WC I do not understand it and would really like for him to come back and clarify.

As previously asked:

Ok Sparticus, so you're saying that when Snape turns into a Death Eater, you "lose".

What does that mean? Does it mean you die and you lose even if town wins?

Does it mean you win if town wins?

Or is there some other specific event that has to happen in order for you to win?

Your Response:

well i think thats me dead i will keep a close eye on the game but please slow down on killing your own town the mod said this game would be hard it is for town but they are making it easy for scum by lynching your own each day , on the next day just because its not how it went in the books dont just dismiss it because if you do you will just keep killing your own , there will be roles that you would not expect to be in it . thanks again neb for fighting my corner you saw the full picture . gg all and come on town .

VOTE Spartacus his actions for completely dismissing everyone for trying to get information, you previously contradicted your role post but came back. Then when people asked what you found out night 1 you did not answer them, and continued to dismiss any requests for which nights your actions worked odd or even, if you would have even stated that you did not do an action N1 it would be easier to identify that you would be even nights but you did not do that. Now when a question was asked about your WC once again you dismiss and it and just say Oh Well... from your actions you have not been pro-town.

instead of just skimming i have said before my power was not used night 1 how hard is that to understand. i have given as much info as i can and the quote above was posted because i think i have been lynched , i was trying to give town a heads up about the future .

[spiesr]

instead of just skimming i have said before my power was not used night 1 how hard is that to understand. i have given as much info as i can and the quote above was posted because i think i have been lynched , i was trying to give town a heads up about the future .

Okay, yes we are no longer questioning that you are currently saying your action was not performed on night 1. Bleed appears to have just used that as an example of how the way you have gone about explaining things has caused more confusion than necessary. We still have some other questions though.
Also, by my count you have not been lynched yet, but rather are 1 vote away.

[chapcrap]

instead of just skimming i have said before my power was not used night 1 how hard is that to understand. i have given as much info as i can and the quote above was posted because i think i have been lynched , i was trying to give town a heads up about the future .

Okay, yes we are no longer questioning that you are currently saying your action was not performed on night 1. Bleed appears to have just used that as an example of how the way you have gone about explaining things has caused more confusion than necessary. We still have some other questions though.
Also, by my count you have not been lynched yet, but rather are 1 vote away.

By everyone's count except SPART's, he's not lynched.

It sounds like he's trying to plant doubt by saying something a town would actually say after they are lynched that way people will unvote him.

[Nebuchadnezer]

I think pancake mix clears it up for me. It appears that I have been makinga few assumptions that were not actually there. It also seems a though my outbursts of frustration are not helping either.

So, I don't know how to make up for this...good news is I should live through the night for sure...

[thehippo8]

So basically you're saying that you can prove a negative in a finite area/space, such as this thread? That makes sense, but I'm not sure what the comment "Where does that leave you" is supposed to mean, considering that it doesn't change the veracity of my main statement fact that Neb misconstrued speisr's statement.

Ah, the "where does that leave you" was answered by you as to internally consistent argument postulation. Rather META and not particularly relevant but an interesting philosophical debate. Interesting that you have grasped almost instantaneously and clearly what philosophers have taken years to grasp - good for you! I love logic too, hence leaping into the fray, but you are right it doesn't add to the discussion so we are back to the game!

FASTPOSTED by Neb

Lol, yes Neb you should be safe tonight! Can you concentrate on town now?

[Bleed_Green]

You can stop saying that everyone is skimming for I was not. I used that clearly as an example but the part that you seem to skim right pass is not the use of your power but the question that has been asked multiple times now about your WC to clear it up.. so please stop your skimming, by completely dismissing a question or just skimming past it cause you think you have explained yourself well enough but it is obvious you have not.

If someone is thinking of putting the hammer down please refrain for alittle bit cause I would like this questioned answered.

[dazza2008]

Spart can you not just post again what your roles does EXACTLY. I know you think you have but clearly not as has been pointed out by many players. There is too much confusion. If you really want to help then try and make it clear.

[alt1978]

I am not voting for sparticus because i believe he has a use for the town. It's a random shot...but with 2 town down...the odds are getting better and better that he is randomly paired with mafia. I don't understand Safari's dismissal of the role being useful to town. That just simply doesn't make sense. We have someone who is of no threat to town tonight...who can possibly (1/3 chance if there are 5 mafia) come up with a scum investigation. If it doesn't work...if sparticus gets paired with a townie...then we can try it again in two days and then lynch him before he turns. An extra investigation though that comes with the bonus of a role discovery is huge. To throw that out the window or dismiss even the possibility of it's usefulness is "scummy" to me. I know I've already tried once to get a closer look at the supposed body guard of harry potter who let him die night one...but Teflon safari seems impossible to stick anything to.
For me though...this just keeps adding to the tells in my book.
Vote Safari