[Official] D&D Mafia ~ Endgame

[edocsil]

Tuesday, 9 pm eastern is deadline. Its a little longer than the 2 weeks, but I'm not making a scene at midnight Monday again.

[DoomYoshi]

Well, 10:45 pm on a Friday night may be my best chance to post, so it will have to do.

I looked back on Aage's case on rishaed and I don't think it's very solid. It feels more like a "I don't know what else to do" kind of a case, which sadly may be what this game has come to. rishaed didn't do anything that made me think he was town-aligned (i.e. not evil) for certain, but nothing jumped out at me that suggested he was scummier than anyone else. However, I think Aage's line of thinking that we pressure the lesser contributors may be our best bet since we don't have any hard evidence to go on from night actions.

Here's where we stand on claims:

show

We have 9 people who haven't claimed (including TFO and Mob, who we know only a bit about) and I would think that there are at least 3 scum in this game, possibly four. Due to everyone's simultaneous busy real lives, we may only get one claim today with the deadline approaching early next week. That's not a great scenario because we will either lynch the person if we don't believe him/her or have a no lynch if we believe the claim.

Aage suggested rishaed, who I'm not opposed to pressuring, but I think there is another candidate who is more deserving if our cases are going to be built on a person's activity/contribution: Skillful

Skillful's activity had been petering off even before everyone else went dormant and he's basically nowhere to be found today (aside from 1 post). Prior to today, he was hopping along the wagons (Aage then Stubbs. . .although Stubbs had it coming) and maintaining a level of participation that was pretty minimal. If I had to put his contributions in quotes since page 30, I don't think it would fill half a page. In sum, he's been flying under the radar at least since page 30, which is when I started my review.

Vote Skillful

fp'd at this hour. . .

At his rate of play he will be modkilled.

[TheForgivenOne]

Did we lose much? The only relevant post I remember was Animaniack's.

You remember correctly. Most of the posts before mine that I saw were apologising for busyness.

For those that didn't see mine, the best replicate I can give is:
"Sorry, but really busy with work as well. My workplace is having an audit coming up, so we're busy preparing for that.

The general impression I get for now while reading through is that rishaed doesn't seem like scum. There were only 2 votes on him the entire time, and if he were scum, it'd have been easy for his scum buddy to divert the attention to another player by creating an alternate wagon, especially when not many of the others were convinced enough to put their vote on rishaed. It seems more like the scum were more than happy to let rishaed slide as an easy mislynch due to inactivity from everyone in general. And by 'scum' I mean those that are Evil-aligned; he may still be Chaotic of course."

I agree with Ana's post here. No bells or whistles are ringing in my head making me think Rishaed's one of the roles that have been killing.

Epi's post has some merit, but as DY mentioned, he'll probably be modkilled. I'm gonna reread a bit when I get a chance and see if I spot anything.

[strike wolf]

I still need to reread but again, I am fine with the potential Rishaed lynch. It makes a lot more sense than A. Epitaph for no apparent reason (Seriously, if you weren't pretty much guaranteed lawful/good, I would be completely in favor of lynching you Doom). B. Skillfu who will either remain inactive and be modkilled or come back at which point the case would die anyways pending future actions from Skill. So at this point, if things don't change and I don't get a chance to reread, I intend to vote Rishaed before deadline is reached.

[strike wolf]

EBWOP: I forgot to mention that bandwagoning is a pretty strong tell of someone who is not town. There are some third party questions that come along certainly which is the hitch but I am not completely buying into Rishaed's claims as of yet and it's worth looking further into.

[Rodion]

I'm leaning towards a Rishaed vote mainly due to lack of better options (I don't like to use inactivity as a voting reason since it's always better to lobby for a replacement). I plan on rereading tomorrow (monday at the latest) to properly decide my vote.

[MoB Deadly]

I am going to start with a vote on vote skillfull. Case on rishead not very good however its the only case that has gotten any effort and put on the table. I think the case on rishead is semi-random, and I think going after one of the inactives/submariners is a better pick to kill mafia. Right now the mafia has no incentive to keep posting. The town hasn't really pegged on any of them, I think they will stand back and let us kill ourselves.

I think someone else mentioned that if rishead was a mafia, someone could easily put in an effort to make a better case to divert the town.

Unless all the mafia is this busy/lazy/tired as we are. I think a limped bandwagon on a scummate would be an incentive for me to put in effort on another case.

I kinda rambled there.....

[DoomYoshi]

(Seriously, if you weren't pretty much guaranteed lawful/good, I would be completely in favor of lynching you Doom)

I get that every game. Starting to get old.

[TheForgivenOne]

(Seriously, if you weren't pretty much guaranteed lawful/good, I would be completely in favor of lynching you Doom)

I get that every game. Starting to get old.

It's because you're lovable. ♥

[strike wolf]

(Seriously, if you weren't pretty much guaranteed lawful/good, I would be completely in favor of lynching you Doom)

I get that every game. Starting to get old.

Perhaps you should reexamine your play style.

[DoomYoshi]

(Seriously, if you weren't pretty much guaranteed lawful/good, I would be completely in favor of lynching you Doom)

I get that every game. Starting to get old.

Perhaps you should reexamine your play style.

I don`t have a style to examine. I post what I am thinking, whether I am mafia or not. Other people don`t follow. It`s like math class, when I would just right the answer and they would ask me to show my work and I would say `how the f*ck can I show my work when I saw the question and the answer popped into my head`. Eventually, I had to learn to work problems backwards so that I could understand how people wanted me to show the answer forward.

All brain scans show that people come up with an answer and then justify it afterwards, despite illusions of logic and free will. I am just lucky enough to see this in my own mind. I am eons ahead of the human race and one day, people may or may not realize that I was right all along.

In any case, as soon as I saw my role, I determined that the best way to play it was to kill the first person who claimed a faction which I can not win against. I then played exactly that way. Can you explain how this is incorrect?

[DoomYoshi]

See, I`ve done it again. I just realized I didn`t specify that the reason for the rant is by saying I should change my play style, strike wolf is actually saying I should change my personality or who I am. Which is a ridiculous proposition.

[Rodion]

I agree that I wouldn't mind pressuring stubbs even though he plays the way he has. Now I thought it may have been early in his career with mafia since I was away for a while. But since everyone else says he has been around he should have picked up a better way to play the meta then his current strategy.

Unvote, Vote Stubbs - I don't see the harm of getting one more claim out for the day.

Sniper was the one that originally defended Stubbs of having the style of posting mostly one-liners. Here, he voted Stubbs implying that he (Stubbs) had been around for some time and should have already evolved from posting one-liners to making more robust posts. The statement he used to back his vote is "since everyone else says he has been around". I've just now realized I did not remember anyone saying "Stubbs has been around", let alone "everyone else".

Did I miss anything or did he really fabricate a statement in order to justify voting someone who ended up flipping town?

At this point I'd rather pressure Sniper. However, if Edoc plans on modkilling him (which I dislike and would rather see a replacement instead), we might as well play with the idea of having multiple "lynches" (Sniper's modkill + an actual lynch), which increases the % of kills decided by town.

My suggestion is the following:

1 - take Sniper's modkill for granted and use the vote pressure on someone else (my reread has failed to find scummy stuff besides Sniper's quote and Yoshi's/Aage's general play, so I'd support a Rishaed vote).
2 - if there are signs of Sniper not getting modkilled (such as him bothering to make a post or Edoc getting a replacement), revert the current wagon (e.g. Rishaed's) back to Sniper (or his replacement) until we get a claim or a VERY good explanation.

The issue I see is that Edoc has established the exact time of the deadline, so Sniper could in theory scummarine until the last minutes and then make a post to simply dodge his modkill, in which case we'll have pressured my 2nd priority (Rishaed) instead of my 1st one (Sniper). If we are wrong and mislynch, then this mafia game might be over before we can correct our mistake with a D4 lynch (between mafia's NK, Yoshi/MoB possibly offing one another and there being neutrals that can share a win with mafia).

I'll take a break and hopefully come back with a less-risky plan.

[Rodion]

See, I`ve done it again. I just realized I didn`t specify that the reason for the rant is by saying I should change my play style, strike wolf is actually saying I should change my personality or who I am. Which is a ridiculous proposition.

Strike's comment is mostly pragmatical. If your playstyle is making you less likely to win games (because you are often perceived as scummy and will be lynched more often than other players since there won't always be a scene that confirms you as town like the one in this game), then it's sound to consider changing it.

[strike wolf]

First of all, Mafia isn't math. Having the right answer isn't how you win. It doesn't even make you the best player. Mafia is more like a debate. You have to be able to convince the other players to side with you. Being arrogant, building up as being beyond human, making illogical cases that often go against known facts and general stubbornness do not lead to good debates. It's true most of us get arrogant sometimes. I know I am definitely guilty of this but you do have to take a step back some times and actually look at what's happening.

Secondly, we had a cult. Cult grows in power quicker than any other group and become huge threats the longer they are left alive. Therefore, cult=lynch priority #1. Furthermore, neither Chaos nor Lawful alone had the numbers to go against each other without guaranteed proof that the neutrals favored one side or the other. That is still true at this point. Lawful vs. Chaos will come I am sure but in the meantime, there's not enough momentum to wage that war in the open. Finally, you don't know how you're early day kill may have hurt your own side. No chaos aligned player in their right minds would openly claim such at this point. That's already going to make it much more difficult to lynch a group who should have had no real reason to hide (at least no more so than anyone good or neutral aligned or for that matter lawful aligned). You also don't know what other lawful players may have benefited from leaving chaos alone until they were out in greater numbers and more readily dealt with.

Either way, I don't want to spend all day arguing this when we should be looking for scum.

@Rodion: Hmm..I hadn't considered Skill's actions from that angle. That does make the case against him a bit more interesting.

[Rodion]

To make it less risky we'd need a decent ammount (4+) of players to commit to being online during the final minutes of D3. That is the only way we can safely try the "toofer" plan. I'd be up for that.

If we can get the support (= people that would like to pressure Rishaed AND that are willing to be online at the final moments of D3), I'll vote Rishaed. If there is lack of support, I'll just roll with the Sniper vote.

Anyway, guys, let me know. Also be sure to ask for clarification if you feel you did not understand my thought process.

[Epitaph1]

Given the current activity level, even after the mass prod, I don't think you're going to get 4 or more people who can commit to being online near the deadline. So, I don't think it will be likely that we can carry out Rodion's plan.

I do have one question/clarification about the plan in case we can get enough people to commit to it. Will mafia get modkilled when scumarining is one of their tactics? I mean, if skillful is mafia after all, what are the chances that edoc would let him slide, knowing that he's intentionally avoiding us?

[MoB Deadly]

I should be on tomorrow at 9pm. I normally go out at like 9:50 - 10. Most of the time being online isn't a problem for me. My problem is laziness and I suck at making cases unless they are glaringly obvious :-/. Or there are less players to read...

[DoomYoshi]

@epitaph: normally a mod will allow a slight amount of scummarining but not after the warning we were given.

[strike wolf]

I had that situation once where a scummarining scum was prodded and told me he was laying low. If memory serves I told him that I wouldn't stop him from laying low but I would still have to replace him if he didn't post at all.

[rishaed]

I had that situation once where a scummarining scum was prodded and told me he was laying low. If memory serves I told him that I wouldn't stop him from laying low but I would still have to replace him if he didn't post at all.

This. Except for here it will result in a modkill.....

[aage]

Aage suggested rishaed, who I'm not opposed to pressuring, but I think there is another candidate who is more deserving if our cases are going to be built on a person's activity/contribution: Skillful

You're deflecting towards the only inactive who'll die anyway, regardless of whom we'll lynch? I actually may favour you as a candidate over Rish for this ridiculous case, but the deadline is too near to do anything. Tomorrow, maybe.

For the record, there is a huge difference between people trying to appear active (rish) and people who aren't actually posting (skillful). The latter has as much chance at being town as anyone; lynching inactives actually is a desperate strategy. On the other hand, mafia of all people would want you to believe they're town.


@Strike on Doom: actually Doom's daykill made the chaots use a playstyle similar to mafia: life in hiding and lying about being a chaot in fear of getting shot. That rolls right into Doom's agenda as more people that have been accused so far turned out to be chaots as opposed to lawful. Lawful pretty much has the upper hand in daylight discussion.

[strike wolf]

I'm gonna post this as is, I haven't gotten around to looking through Skill's posts. Hopefully, I'll find some time tonight or early tomorrow:

A quick look back at posts from each of the current subjects:

Welp, I was out of town for the joke portion of D1, else I would have voted betiko for being my scumbuddy in NBC mafia.

I don't mind MoB's idea, but it's really just organized random voting for D1. I don't know how else D1 progresses at this stage as it's too early to identify inactives.

I'll hold off on throwing out my random vote in case we go with some version of MoB's idea.

If we were to seriously consider Mob's idea, I personally would use the logic of who would make the best scum.

In general, if someone is good at playing scum, then it makes sense they would be more difficult to find. Therefore, to me, voting people best at playing scum (i.e. most experienced) would actually be the best move as it increases the likelihood that we find the less convincing scum players later as they should be easier to expose.

This seems like it could backfire if we lynch a good player or at least expose a good player with a power role.

During the gregwolf case:

I'm counting 7 votes or L-3 atm.

Let's see if edoc gets the same number.

and i count six votes on me, jonty voted me twice, so i believe that would put me at L-4 so i won't claim at this time,

You are only delaying the inevitable. Why hold up the day when it's apparent that you're our D1 claim?

Anyway, you have 2 more votes, so by any count it's time for your claim.

Survivors can win with mafia. Nobody can win with CE. Ergo, CE is not mafia. Edocsil never confirmed that C/E should behave like mafia, but rather cleverly avoided answering that question. Besides, the mafia godfather will most likely be evil/lawful for flavor purposes and then he won't be able to win with C/E anyways.

That is true, regarding survivors - which I guess would be our Neutral/Neutral? Perhaps Mafia are all just Evil/Lawful and Evil/Neutral, depending on their abilities, while the SK is Evil/Chaotic. Which could make some sense, with Good being our usual 'Pro-Town', albeit with some infighting, and Evil being all our 'Anti-Town'. I don't know how far we can liken this game to regular mafia games though, and there might not even be clear Pro- and Anti- town factions...

Going into this game, I assumed the mafia would be CE. But I guess that doesn't make sense since survivors wouldn't be able to win along with them since CE isn't compatible with anything (unless there are no survivors. . .which I doubt given the game size). I'm leaning SK for CE, although I suppose cult is a possibility as well.

But I don't think the mafia could have both evil/lawful and evil/neutral alignments unless there are two separate mafias. If one mafia faction were to have both alignments, a few town members could theoretically eliminate any mafia members with a certain alignment and win with the remaining members, which would basically be forming a new mafia in the middle of the game.

---

re: Rodion's case on betiko. I didn't find betiko's vote to be particularly scummy but I need to re-read the gregwolf case build up to see if I can spot the loophole.

As someone mentioned, if cult it the E/C, I agree that it precludes an SK from being E/C as well. However, I don't think we can sit tight and assume there isn't an SK or at least some 3rd party killer in the game. Perhaps, it would be an altered SK that could somehow win with one of the evil factions (in which case, perhaps it could be E/C after all).

Upon further consideration, if there are two mafia factions split upon the lines of E/L and E/N, they could conceivably both win since their alignments match up. I suppose if this were the case, there would only be 2 mafia factions + cult instead of 1 mafia + 1 cult + 1 SK/3rd party killer.

Re: jonty's comment. I don't know if his suggestion that the cult could be good is the most damning comment ever, but I think it's a worse slip than gregwolf saying that he's kicking his feet up until we figure out something to do. His OMGUS doesn't help his cause either.

unvote Vote Jonty

I think jonty sounds like the equivalent to some kind of 3rd party survivor role. Commutes are strictly self-preservation, and RB'ing and unblockable kills sound like chaos if you ask me.

I'm not familiar at all with DnD, so I can't comment on the flavor too much. Regional traveler sounds weird, but I really have no idea.

Re: NL--I won't be upset if we'd rather go NL but, as I mentioned above, jonty's abilities strike me as chaotic which means there's a decent chance he's lying about his role.

I'll be busy this weekend, but I'll make an effort to get back before the deadline.

I still don't trust jonty's claim for reasons I stated earlier (his abilities sound more akin to chaos rather than lawful). I believe it was Neb who pointed out that his unblockable kill could reek havoc if the cult manage to recruit him (N3 or later assuming he really has 2 commutes).

Also, I didn't find MoB's vote or "subject to change" comment to be a crime. I was under the impression that we would either lynch jonty or have a no lynch. With the deadline rapidly approaching, it's reckless to push for another claim (3rd or 4th depending if you count the modkill) with such little time to discuss it.

D1 post summary: Some contributions. As I said before a lot of them are echoing previous sentiments.

I've never heard of a town janitor.

But if TFO was roleblocked, rishaed's suggestion that TFO is the cult leader doesn't add up with the scene. I'm inclined to think that TFO is not the cult leader at this point.

I don't have any information from the night.

I'm still catching up--at least a few pages behind. I'm not sure how my vote on jonty came up as suspicious to SW as I stated more than once that I didn't believe his claim. It was more than his unblockable kill that made him seem chaotic to me and I put that on the record (which he quoted).

I will try to catch the rest of the way up as soon as I can.

Ok, I'm caught up.

Re: Mob.

MoB has not tripped my scumdar at all this game, even during the NL saga. I found that wagon to be as contrived as they come and thought that would be a good place to start looking for weak votes going into today (See below).

Now, it appears that he is confirmed mason at the least, but idk if it's too much to assume his alignment is the same as saf's (N/C). Although, I don't think it's worth prying into his alignment now that we've confirmed at least part of his role. The only way it's worth pursuing is if we believe MoB was recruited, and I haven't found a reason to think that's the case.

Re: TFO

I also have not found TFO's play this game to be scummy. I understand that he volunteered information twice--role info re: cult and the roleblock--but I don't find that incriminating, although the wisdom is apparently up for debate (I'm of the opinion that it wasn't a bad play).

Yeah, I know this is WIFOMy, but I would suspect that the existence of a watcher is enough to deter a recruiter from TFO on N1 considering that no other claims were still alive going into N1 and TFO was the only one who had soft claimed something about his role (unless I'm forgetting another soft claim).

I assume when people refer to "treating the disease rather than the symptoms" they are referring to pursuing a different case other than TFO. Of course we would rather treat the disease if we can prevent the spread of infection, I think that goes without saying. Either way, I don't think TFO is worth pressuring any more at this point.

Re: Stubbs

SW's observations on Stubbs lead me to vote for him, but someone mentioned this is how he always plays. So, I'll refrain from voting for the moment.

Re: Votes on MoB

As I said above, I found this wagon to be weak as hell. We were clearly looking at a lynch jonty or bust situation at the point when MoB voted and people acted like this was a huge scum slip. Gimme a break.
The final VC on MoB was aage, newguy, DoomYoshi, jonty, Saf. 3 of those people are dead, leaving DY and aage. In retrospect, Saf's vote is the most perplexing, but whatever.

If I had more time now, I would start combing through DY and aage's posts. But I don't have more time atm.

fp'd

Neither saf nor MoB voted jonty. The Chaotic Neutrals are probably the "mafia".

Stubbz does have a double vote. Both were counted.

I smell fish.

vote stubbz

I don't think the N/Cs are mafia: both jonty and saf flipped JOAT and that already seems like a lot of ammunition to give the mafia, considering that there is still a janitor and possibly some form of GF.

Both MoB and saf confirmed a connection between the two even if the DK scene didn't state that saf was a mason. MoB better hope that the paladin only was a 1 shot or else I'm sure he'll be back to finish off MoB--especially since MoB said that he has to kill the paladin to win the game.

This should get interesting: MoB can't win with DY alive. So, it will be interesting to see if MoB has a kill of his own to return the favor.

We'll see if this gets counterclaimed, but I doubt it.

Piecing this together, DY is:

Davmorn Loyalar - Paladin - L/G - daykiller (day vig?)

It seems like this should be a limited role. Otherwise, anyone who claims anything that cannot with with L/G will get picked off every time they claim--or at least the first such claim of the day.

I count 5 votes on Aage, or L-3.

I have a quick question about cults: is it possible for a cult to begin with more than 1 member or the leader to have multiple powers? A lot of people seem convinced that the roleblock against TFO (for which Aage has now taken credit) was town and not mafia. I get why it wouldn't be mafia, but if anyone had the good reason to block TFO, it would have been a cult. TFO had indicated that he knew something about cults on D1, which to me indicates that he has some kind of investigative power or VC geared towards cults. If a cult could start with a RB--be it a designated roleblocker or just an ability by the cult leader--then that warrants consideration.

Anyway, waiting on Aage's full claim.

Seeing how no one has counterclaimed Aage, his claim checks out (or at least his action last night). Can a jailer prevent a recruitment as well? That would be super handy (and not weak).

Is there an efficient way to count the number of posts individuals have made? I was going to start counting posts manually, but that's more time than I'd like to spend if there is a better way.

I'm reading wikipedia on goliaths right now. . .jailkeeper doesn't seem like a natural role for such a character. But I don't know how much to read into the race description, especially since this is the first I'm reading about any of the DnD races. The neutral designation seems appropriate, I cannot tell about the good. It's kind of a stretch, but not enough for me to put the pedal to the metal against Aage.

---

MoB mentioned that we've had a lot of claims today but for some reason it doesn't feel like it. Saf is the only full claim, although he could have taken part of his role to the grave. DY and Aage claimed enough, but not entirely. And MoB didnt really claim, we just know he was connected to Saf in some way--Saf who hopped on the train to lynch MoB on D1--and has a kill.

That said, I don't think MoB's play warrants any more pressure--we know him and DY are at odds, so that's enough for now. Stubbs, on the other hand, has contributed the least this game and has been a ghost as of late. He admitted he's been absent on Monday and vowed to catch up when he had some time. Idk how much more time to give him to make a 2 line response.

unvote Vote Stubbs

He was a little wishy-washy about Aage but ultimately stuck to the opinion that he was not worth voting for. So nothing strong there.

Ok. . . that sounds like a lot.

I'm not sure what to make of that. It sounds too elaborate to make up but it would be nice if there was some way to verify your actions.

Also, I'm kinda surprised that a human sorcerer would be neutral instead of lawful. I'll do a little reading on sorcerers.

After a bit of reading, it appears sorcerers can be of any alignment. Regardless, I don't see us going with one of the others who have claimed over Stubbs for the lynch. Given his participation and possible lie, I'm comfortable going forward with his lynch.

WAIT. TIMEOUT..........

If you "prepare" spells during the day and use them at night..... And you claimed which spells you created already.

How are you taking responsibility for Roleblocking TFO, if you did not Prepare that spell??????


Am I correct or did I just fall off my horse?

Aage claimed to block TFO, not Stubbs.

D2 summary: He still had not started his own case following mostly others however his posts show signs of discretion about which cases he chose to join.

I don't think the orc died with the dragon. The only people dead from the scene are the dragon and 2 people who got endgamed. The janitor may know 3 identities now, so the fakeclaims are piling up. At least greg claimed, so that's not available to the janitor/mafia.

I suspect that Commander blocked TFO. We had already cleared TFO from being the recruiter given that aage jailed him on N1 and the cult had the most reason to keep him in check given that he started with some info about the cult. I'm sure greg was the watcher as he said since he claimed D1 and wasn't aligned with cult at that point. Although, I suppose it could have been someone who still didn't trust TFO, but it's hard to say for sure.

Re: rishaed. I have to go back re-read his wagons and case contributions.

What makes you so sure that Commander blocked TFO?

I have been slammed this week with work and RL. I still want to re-read some of rishaed's votes and the janitor discussion--although, I don't know what Plan B is if we don't at least get a claim from rishaed.

Well, 10:45 pm on a Friday night may be my best chance to post, so it will have to do.

I looked back on Aage's case on rishaed and I don't think it's very solid. It feels more like a "I don't know what else to do" kind of a case, which sadly may be what this game has come to. rishaed didn't do anything that made me think he was town-aligned (i.e. not evil) for certain, but nothing jumped out at me that suggested he was scummier than anyone else. However, I think Aage's line of thinking that we pressure the lesser contributors may be our best bet since we don't have any hard evidence to go on from night actions.

Here's where we stand on claims:

show

We have 9 people who haven't claimed (including TFO and Mob, who we know only a bit about) and I would think that there are at least 3 scum in this game, possibly four. Due to everyone's simultaneous busy real lives, we may only get one claim today with the deadline approaching early next week. That's not a great scenario because we will either lynch the person if we don't believe him/her or have a no lynch if we believe the claim.

Aage suggested rishaed, who I'm not opposed to pressuring, but I think there is another candidate who is more deserving if our cases are going to be built on a person's activity/contribution: Skillful

Skillful's activity had been petering off even before everyone else went dormant and he's basically nowhere to be found today (aside from 1 post). Prior to today, he was hopping along the wagons (Aage then Stubbs. . .although Stubbs had it coming) and maintaining a level of participation that was pretty minimal. If I had to put his contributions in quotes since page 30, I don't think it would fill half a page. In sum, he's been flying under the radar at least since page 30, which is when I started my review.

Vote Skillful

fp'd at this hour. . .

Given the current activity level, even after the mass prod, I don't think you're going to get 4 or more people who can commit to being online near the deadline. So, I don't think it will be likely that we can carry out Rodion's plan.

I do have one question/clarification about the plan in case we can get enough people to commit to it. Will mafia get modkilled when scumarining is one of their tactics? I mean, if skillful is mafia after all, what are the chances that edoc would let him slide, knowing that he's intentionally avoiding us?

Summary: Ultimately D1 and D2, I didn't see much to look back on and find scummy on this read through. His day 3 posts are a bit more erratic in my eyes however. I'm not really sure what to make of some of them.

onto Rishaed:

Not including a post excusing his inactivity and his confirmation post.

Damn! Good job Safari bro... I was too busy laughing at everyones' post to realize..... I would like to see a votecount before I cast my vote though.

This goes equally well for me as well before I decide whether to vote him I want to see how many votes he currently has.

and i count six votes on me, jonty voted me twice, so i believe that would put me at L-4 so i won't claim at this time,

Fine. Vote Greg. Good job buying yourself more time.

I see this more of a correction of the VC? And I usually don't claim until L-2, but we have indicators that people are willing to vote him up to L-2 so claim comment isn't necessary.
Minor FoS aage
vote Gregwolf.
Lets get a claim today that we can work with and analyze a bit.
BTW, Jonty Takes swig of Dwarven Brew, I make a funny face at which he spews his brew over a torch creating entertainment for the evening

Agree unvote

This party is ridiculous. We are never going to catch scum if everyone wakes up first thing and starts drinking every day. Let's go questing.

Fair enough. I see a worried man walk up to him and roll the dice for persuasion. I roll a 2 and start a bar fight......

Survivors can win with mafia. Nobody can win with CE. Ergo, CE is not mafia. Edocsil never confirmed that C/E should behave like mafia, but rather cleverly avoided answering that question. Besides, the mafia godfather will most likely be evil/lawful for flavor purposes and then he won't be able to win with C/E anyways.

That is true, regarding survivors - which I guess would be our Neutral/Neutral? Perhaps Mafia are all just Evil/Lawful and Evil/Neutral, depending on their abilities, while the SK is Evil/Chaotic. Which could make some sense, with Good being our usual 'Pro-Town', albeit with some infighting, and Evil being all our 'Anti-Town'. I don't know how far we can liken this game to regular mafia games though, and there might not even be clear Pro- and Anti- town factions...

Regarding the betiko case, it feels rather weak. Sometimes I too would skim past a post without anything striking me as particularly odd or suspicious, till someone else points it out. Why would Rodion present the case while being conscious of its loopholes though?

A. Because he was asked to post it.
B. Because its D1, every case is going to be fairly weak. We don't have Night Action results yet, and there is very little posting history for the game. Which pretty well makes a rock solid case fairly impossible, unless someone does a fairly decent sized screw up or slip.
C. A case leading somewhere with said opinions and such generates discussion, which is good all around and avoids stagnancy and inactivity.
You aren't extremely new so I would think that you would know this.... FoS Anamainiacks
fp'd with similar response

Seems like a fairly weak reason to FOS someone.

Hmm..I'm actually going to FOS Jonty for that remark. Cult has always been evil and the mason recruiter has always been the town equivalent to a cult recruiter. Now edoc has been around long enough to consider any town group faction to be called masons. He would not call them cult. Arggh...I had a very clear thought in my head when I started writing this but I can't seem to get it to come out that way. Anyways, my main point is that TFO has confirmed that cult is antagonistic, I am fosing Jonty based on the possible intentional mislead by suggesting possible protagonistic cult.

Just pointing out that I hadn't said they were evil yet when Jonty made that post.

I said we had a cult, he posted his, I said they were an evil dragon worshipers.

However, I haven't encountered a cult that is considered "Good". So maybe he's trying to make it look like I was mentioning a Mason instead of a Cult.

A dragon might also be a possibility for C/E, would probably work more like an SK than anything, but very powerful? Also, seeing as Jonty was twitchy about painting the cult in a good/best light I will vote Jonty. Cult is never pro-town and you have been around long enough to know that.

The first on the Jonty wagon seeing as I had only FOSed at that point.

WTF. I thought wolf claimed Lawful Neutral... I should just kill him for tricking me now.

To those who don't understand me: all my posts since the claim were based around the thought that the watcher (the second most pro-town role) was Lawful.


I wish someone would've pointed that out earlier ffs.

I'm currently interested in how serious this part of your post is. Does this mean you are softclaiming vig? OR does this mean you can daykill? I will stick with my vote on jonty currently, but am also very much wondering if this is a slight slip on your part.

Just laughing to myself that he guessed this.

Hmm..I'm actually going to FOS Jonty for that remark. Cult has always been evil and the mason recruiter has always been the town equivalent to a cult recruiter. Now edoc has been around long enough to consider any town group faction to be called masons. He would not call them cult. Arggh...I had a very clear thought in my head when I started writing this but I can't seem to get it to come out that way. Anyways, my main point is that TFO has confirmed that cult is antagonistic, I am fosing Jonty based on the possible intentional mislead by suggesting possible protagonistic cult.

Just pointing out that I hadn't said they were evil yet when Jonty made that post.

I said we had a cult, he posted his, I said they were an evil dragon worshipers.

However, I haven't encountered a cult that is considered "Good". So maybe he's trying to make it look like I was mentioning a Mason instead of a Cult.

A dragon might also be a possibility for C/E, would probably work more like an SK than anything, but very powerful? Also, seeing as Jonty was twitchy about painting the cult in a good/best light I will vote Jonty. Cult is never pro-town and you have been around long enough to know that.

did you miss my vote edoc?

I have a contribution to debate, but I will wait until the dust settles.

Post it, the fastest way to let the dust settle is to ignore it.

Agree'd and unvote I don't see the point in lynching Jonty ATM, but since we just lost our cop... it'll get harder to check what he does. Rather busy, but trying to keep read up. Should be able to do some good amount of posting this weekend if all goes well.

He both PMed me and posted in the thread while I was on vacation. I would prefer if discussion of this was removed to another thread if any feel it is needed.

Indeed. MoB we need a distraction. Give us your case....

^This. I do think also that even with our cop gone, that if we don't lynch him we should still be able to verify his claim. Therefor, if we wait a day or not is not extremely important. However it does seem that we have a very much NV game so far. Of all of 19 players we have at least 2 very strong claims (in retrospect im not sure how high in strength gregwolfs role would be). Therefor, I will wait on a jonty lynch.

I also agree. We've already outed two live power roles (town/town?) Of which I believe greg's claim more than jonty's but am not willing to throw a third potentially large power role to the dogs. vote No Lynch

Interesting couple of posts.

unvote, vote MoB for the "subject to change", everyone knows you can change your vote, but you seem to be voting no lynch, waiting for someone else to provide a case.

And i go to vote no lynch then i come back and see this.... You basically quoted what doom said about the vote changing, if everyone knows it then why have it stated twice in the thread. The second half (in bold) is just not true. And seeing deadline is in a couple of hours this is either A. out of selfpreservation(?) with the attempt at not looking scummy at which I would have hopped on the NL/next largest wagon (not on a new one), or B. just blatant BW'ing/sheeping. I find this extremely scummy and telling on your part jonty. As much as you are verifiable in your role it seems your alignment is showing through right now. Major FoS on Jonty. You are where I'm starting tomorrow barring significant night actions.

It doesn't look like this is anywhere else but a Jonty lynch tonight. I will stick with my no lynch vote though, because I don't think in the time left 3 more votes to lynch jonty to end the day early (and hopefully the inactivity), are showing up, which makes it therefor futile. I will say that I don't agree with the current lynch, but that is outlined in earlier posts.

D1 Summary: Worth noting that he jumped on and off every case other than the MoB case which really wasn't an option for him (If he jumped on mob, it doesn't take a genius to realize that he just flip flopped his opinion on the matter.) He did stick with his no lynch vote but as the above post states, he was very comfortable with Jonty being the ultimate lynch decision. Ultimately, he appears to have been Bandwagoning.

A dragon was on the prowl in the night. It sought to corrupt and rule over the hearts of men and other mortals. It found it's target and let loose a mighty roar, and the male before quivered in fright, and began to kneel. Only time would tell his fate, for no one saw or heard what happened to him, for they all too hid in terror of the dragon.
Looks like we are cult confirmed.
I don't want to say that TFO is in the clear though.
A. His alignment is up for grabs.
B.WC (He might have to eliminate cult)
C. He might have been recruited.
D.He might be the recruiter (in which case it was well played).
A knife descends and cloak flutters and another man meets his fate. There was something odd about the body however. None could tell what the man was, or what he had done in life. Now all they knew of the man was his death.

new guy1 ~ Yenhand Silverkin ???/??? has been killed.
I would presume this means we have a janitor type role? Which leads me to question, the only time I saw it was in LoVo's Arkham and the entire thing was ???. I wonder if this means that the Janitor is 3rd party, but since there is only one kill I would think he is Mafia. This could also mean that mafia already have fakeclaims since when I was in Arkham the janitor got what the killed party was after death.
16 alive 9 to lynch. Deadline is in 2 weeks roughly.

All in all though, the scene doesnt really tell us anything new.

Betiko was MK'D remember?
so 5 non-voters.

looks like the other two were Comm9 and SW?

The last two refer to non-voters to rule out confusion.

Indeed, TFO might become a policy lynch later on if he hasn't been NK'd by Mafia/vig/latent SK (improbable, but possible?). I see no reason to push the issue on him now. However on D2 pushing to lynch a "possible recruitee" sounds fishy to me, as well as a waste of time currently, we should be using D2 to gain information and claims as much as possible. TFO already has some cards on the table, and there are some variables that unless you provide some very convincing arguments/information will not sway me on him. As an incentive to come up with those arguments I will vote Safariguy

I'm Iangeon Swordhand, Half Elf Ranger and mason with Mob Deadly. Neutral Chaotic alignment

I'm a JOAT with 2 BP vests, a NK, track, and investigate.

Also, should either I or Mob be killed, we can't win unless the killer dies. This is on top of the regular alignment win conditions.

The real question is, when are the chaotic/lawful aligned peeps going to stop working together and start trying to kill each other.

That's a pretty strong claim in terms that you didn't lie about your alignment. So what happens if one of you is recruited? Can you still win? Would it be possible to get an indicator (so we know who's a cultie with a pos 50% shot if you lie?) if the other one is recruited?
Oh and unvote

Quick to unvote again.

A secondary scenario is that Saf is cult leader, and MoB was recruited last night. Thus making "masons" a viable fakeclaim. I already hate the fact that our cop got MK'd, because unless someone else (it seems like we have many JOAT's) vigs/investigates one of them (possible with chaotic alignment) it is not for certain. And with this many JOAT's in a 19 player game unless greg watched someone obscure then, it is possible, but not likely that he is lying & recruited. However that's that. I want to think and mull over the Saf/Mob claim/halfclaim.

well the infighting didn't take that long. One confirmed lawful (good?) char, who just murdured someone....

All things considered DY deserves to die. I already warned him yesterday that I would be voting for him if he decided to ignore town's best interest. I see no reason for the sudden wagon against me as I have explained myself every time I cast what you interpret as an "odd" vote.

Fine. I'm the one who blocked TFO. That's why I believe him to be town.

If your going to claim night actions partially, at least give a decent claim. I realize there are a decent amount of JOAT's in the game, but I want the Char align (though I would guess it'd be g/n chaotic from your voting) and name. vote AAGE

Either way I am personally inclined to trust the claim

After consideration it is a useful role to have, however with the cult leader still in the open it could turn very nasty if either A. Gregwolf was recruited B. Aage gets recruited in the night. We need some form of check to make sure that aage does not get recruited in the night. A busdriver possibly? Either that or we hit the cult recruiter tonight by chance... That would be very fortunate....

Either way I am personally inclined to trust the claim

After consideration it is a useful role to have, however with the cult leader still in the open it could turn very nasty if either A. Gregwolf was recruited B. Aage gets recruited in the night. We need some form of check to make sure that aage does not get recruited in the night. A busdriver possibly? Either that or we hit the cult recruiter tonight by chance... That would be very fortunate....

Also I forgot unvote

Aage did indeed full claim.
however Stubbs is more pressing than aage right now. vote Stubbs

I'm having a hard time believing the role. You're basically saying you're a super-JOAT, as you get to pick your own abilities from a list.

I don't trust it.

On one hand it'd be quite hard to make up all the roles inside of it. On the other hand....He's probably a top pick on the recruiting list if he doesn't get lynched and he's telling the truth..... Others have posted D&D flavour that seems contrary, and I find it to be wrong because it's so powerful, but yet you claimed neutral alignment and not chaotic/lawful. Remember that Edoc said that the more powerful roles would go to the ones that are either lawful/chaotic. I think he's lying about alignment at least, if not about his role. My vote stands.

You know. You said that pushing for a possible recruitee sounds fishy to you. Now you're kind of doing it yourself. Interesting.

I'm having a hard time believing the role. You're basically saying you're a super-JOAT, as you get to pick your own abilities from a list.

I don't trust it.

On one hand it'd be quite hard to make up all the roles inside of it. On the other hand....He's probably a top pick on the recruiting list if he doesn't get lynched and he's telling the truth..... Others have posted D&D flavour that seems contrary, and I find it to be wrong because it's so powerful, but yet you claimed neutral alignment and not chaotic/lawful. Remember that Edoc said that the more powerful roles would go to the ones that are either lawful/chaotic. I think he's lying about alignment at least, if not about his role. My vote stands.

Some say that sorcerors don't have to prepare their spells (thus would be able to use them that night). I have more issues with the alignment for said reasons. He claimed good/neut. but has a superpowerful role. Edoc straight up told us that the weight of the PR (power role) would be effected by alignment. It is too powerful for a good/neut alignment. I would wager chaotic alignment more than lawful alignment on this one, which also leaves perhaps the possibility for him to be the cult recruiter fake claiming.

vote rishaed

you're pushing it.

An OMGUS? Nice reaction. I just did exactly what dazza wanted, pointed out why I was voting you. If you really want to vote someone who is presenting a case, find either a counter case or focus the attention on another case. Only another reason to keep my vote on you.

I object rodion, dare say it is fact unless edoc decided to screw with us in this thread
Official D&D in Discussions thread
from that thread

The majority of players would be (neutral, good), a modest number of (neutral, neutral) and a smaller group of (something, evil). The (neutral, good) can all win together and would be "town". The (lawful, good) and the (chaotic, good) would win with town but not with each other. (lawful, evil) and (neutral, evil) would represent the scum. (Chaotic, evil) would be something that could only win by itself. Some sort of solo dominator, SK, Cult, Arsonist, or other such thing is possible.

Basically lawful can't win with chaotic, and evil can't win with good, unless all good and evil living are lawful. Good and lawful players would not have to survive to win, so long as their WC was met before the game ended. The more "extreme" a role is the more powerful it would be. (Chaotic, good/evil) would both have powerful abilities, while (neutral, neutral) would have it's primary power in the vote and something to help them survive. (Lawfull, good/evil) would be somewhere in between in terms of power.

This is why I am voting stubbs after he claimed, and why I reasoned as such. If he would have claimed chaotic/lawful I might have unvoted him.
This should also put to rest which factions are scum and which are "town".

...

You missed the point. What I said is that you could not gauge how powerful Stubbs' claim was before he announced the spells he could have prepared: they could be strong spells or weak spells. That is why I find "Stubbs' role is too powerful for a neutral/good claim" to be a rather weak argument, since we never got to know exactly how powerful his claimed role was by the time that line of inquiry was raised.

These spells have a pretty big variety, and the day 4 spells are more powerful then the day 1 spells.

From this quote in his initial claim it is obvious that he not only gets to pick and choose on the spells, but also as time progresses they become stronger. Does that sound like a weak claim in this kind of game where aage claimed good/neutral and is a jailkeeper, greg's a watcher. Doom is lawful/good and a paladin and daykills which by logic is in between neutral and chaotic in power. Now I think Doom has hinted and from the scene he might have been forced to daykill Saf, but claiming good/neutral with a Super JOAT is stupidity.

D2: Post summary: Again. A decent bit of bandwagoning and a couple odd comments. A bit more varied posting towards the end of the day.

I'd say it was good except that we are down to 11 players with at least two confirmed Mafia (Janitor/Killer). One good thing is that we now know race of mafia seems to be orcs from the scene. Interesting that cult was immediately endgamed. I would like to hear more from TFO though. Since he knew that cult was in the game from the beginning, I would somewhat like some clarification since he didn't win when cult died.

I don't think the orc died with the dragon. The only people dead from the scene are the dragon and 2 people who got endgamed. The janitor may know 3 identities now, so the fakeclaims are piling up. At least greg claimed, so that's not available to the janitor/mafia.

Then why didn't the dragon show up as unknown? It would be very much in the mafia's favor if town thought the CL was still alive.

Because the dragon was already cult confirmed by TFO? So any scene where the dragon died wouldn't be of any help because town would still know that the dragon was dead, ergo cult was dead.

I don't think the orc died with the dragon. The only people dead from the scene are the dragon and 2 people who got endgamed. The janitor may know 3 identities now, so the fakeclaims are piling up. At least greg claimed, so that's not available to the janitor/mafia.

Then why didn't the dragon show up as unknown? It would be very much in the mafia's favor if town thought the CL was still alive.

Because the dragon was already cult confirmed by TFO? So any scene where the dragon died wouldn't be of any help because town would still know that the dragon was dead, ergo cult was dead.

Assuming that was the only dragon in the game.

sure, but a dragons are rare, and have two cults in the game of 19 players would make the game highly unbalanced. which would be unfeasible in an official game.

Indeed, assuming. But since the first one was I would assume the second one would be also? Not extremely familiar with D&D alignments.

So at least that clears an. partially (not completely), The question is that with everything going on I might go back to the list we compiled for the CL to hunt for scum if the warring Lawful/Chaotic (MoB/Doom) don't kill each other first. Unless someone has complete information that they are witholding on another cult, then I think that scum are the last thing that will hold the splittering town alliances.

I haven't much time but I looked at the past 15ish pages for clues, mostly been looking into Rishaed based on this post:

Either way I am personally inclined to trust the claim

After consideration it is a useful role to have, however with the cult leader still in the open it could turn very nasty if either A. Gregwolf was recruited B. Aage gets recruited in the night. We need some form of check to make sure that aage does not get recruited in the night. A busdriver possibly? Either that or we hit the cult recruiter tonight by chance... That would be very fortunate....

Might be a slip, might be just town rooting for town. But if you look at the last wagons (Saf, me, Stubbs), notice how Rish has been amongst the last to vote yet the first to unvote. His play is very careful, doesn't want to get his hands dirty. Also explains why he hasn't contributed much of note to any case ever. Adding that up to the janitor-discussion from earlier this day, I will vote Rishaed so we can finally leave the hypothetical-theme-discussion and kick this day off.

That part. It wouldn't matter eitherway, how am I supposed to know what goes on in the night considering that that was mid-day and most night decisions are made somewhere near the end of the day or night for most factions? Now on the other hand it was very fortunate that cult is gone(?). I haven't had much time right now to post extremely long or elaborate cases recently on my own either due to RL unfortunately, so don't read too much into it. Which also would go for contributing for the most part. I do apologize for that however...

I know all about cases based on slips of tongue. Every now and then I am right about them too.

This one on rishaed seems a stretch.

I have also been wanting to vote rishaed, since I don't like the post-scene clutter he filled up the thread with. It was explained in 1 post why it is unlikely that there is a janitor, and then he spent nearly a whole page trying to make the proof fit into his janitor pudding.

vote rishaed

for not wanting to challenge his preconceived notions of the game. Are they preconceived because they are mafiastic?

Then, how else would you explain why some roles have been given and other roles are in ??? format? It was just the only thing that makes sense to me. I am willing to drop it, but seriously speaking can you think of another role/reason on why the two would be different? Because if you can give me a decent explanation I am more than willing to consider it. I just haven't been given any other options to consider.

I've started two various posts on inactivity/response to DY, but keep getting distracted before I finish them...

I have also been wanting to vote rishaed, since I don't like the post-scene clutter he filled up the thread with. It was explained in 1 post why it is unlikely that there is a janitor, and then he spent nearly a whole page trying to make the proof fit into his janitor pudding.

If you would notice however that plenty of people could have stepped in in that page to page n a half. And it wasn't straight up janitor discussion. It went from janitor to Cult/Dragon discussion. And seeing as it was for the most part me and SW talking over a few days, I don't see where people could have stepped in. And since when can't I flesh out an opinion more thoroughly? Posting is a good thing and it was about the only thing to discuss on. The game is dying or mostly dead right now and if we can't get people to post in here then I will not let myself become a policy lynch because of inactivity. I was just arguing the seeming discrepency, but am willing to let game mechanic slide right now. Its called one post from one person doesn't mean something is fact, otherwise known as my word vs your word in court.

I have also been wanting to vote rishaed, since I don't like the post-scene clutter he filled up the thread with. It was explained in 1 post why it is unlikely that there is a janitor, and then he spent nearly a whole page trying to make the proof fit into his janitor pudding.

If you would notice however that plenty of people could have stepped in in that page to page n a half. And it wasn't straight up janitor discussion. It went from janitor to Cult/Dragon discussion. And seeing as it was for the most part me and SW talking over a few days, I don't see where people could have stepped in. And since when can't I flesh out an opinion more thoroughly? Posting is a good thing and it was about the only thing to discuss on. The game is dying or mostly dead right now and if we can't get people to post in here then I will not let myself become a policy lynch because of inactivity. I was just arguing the seeming discrepency, but am willing to let game mechanic slide right now. Its called one post from one person doesn't mean something is fact, otherwise known as my word vs your word in court.

And so are you important enough for this to be a bad thing?

Not really, in terms I'm only a minor role from the other claims i've seen, but despite that I'm not exactly expendable right now. In any terms the discussion was dying so I don't care how much attention that I've gotten, because if it kept things from completely dying it was worth it.

Who is the person responsible for deleting my large post and how can I kill him?

Ditto for my reply ):<
That being said I've already hinted more at alignment. I don't have to be either lawful/chaotic alignment. However I was putting any petty interests aside D2 b/c cult was still alive at that point. D1, well I'm never keen on doing a random lynch. And as for stubbs i wasn't buying his actions/claim with regards to alignment. (Yes I was wrong there.) I would be more interested in knowing why you seem so focused on me currently, but since you are already pretty much confirmed I'm not going to push the issue with you b/c its a waste of time.
MOD: IS the Deadline still Oct. 8th?
If so there are four days until the deadline... I'm going to try and make a quick VC:
rishaed (1)-aage
Ephitaph (1)- DY

I had that situation once where a scummarining scum was prodded and told me he was laying low. If memory serves I told him that I wouldn't stop him from laying low but I would still have to replace him if he didn't post at all.

This. Except for here it will result in a modkill.....

[/quote]

Unfortunately, the rollback ate a few posts that were quite important.

Summary: Overall the case is strong.

[rishaed]

Ummmmm.....?
What?
I don't exactly see what your point is? Apparently the case on me is strong??!!
I am actually really confused, you posted everything that I said with quotes but it didn't really seem to make an overall point.
Your context of time on stubbs is also off. It was near the end of the day on D2, I didn't buy his claim, and there was no time to find anyone else. So why not take a shot in the dark on the possibility that he "could" (past tense) have been the CL?

[Rodion]

Strike does raise some interesting points against Rishaed, but at this point I think the latter's spotty play is not as big a scumtell as Sniper's fake reasoning to vote Stubbs.

I'm still fine with the dual pressure, though, if we can pull that off (MoB's in, it seems).