CYOC: TDT [6/22] Game Over! FREEDOM!!!

[Nebuchadnezer]

I stated that Jak is my watch earlier...thus I am tracking his post, which have been numerous.

I agree with all the statements on Jak. We do need everyone to check in though (along with their report on their watches). I would hate to end this day without at least hearing from everyone. Once that has happened, I'll happily vote Jak...unless someone even more scummy shows up.

I like Strike Wolf's theories on the Clock. I think we wait to see if the Clock strikes again or not. It may have been a 1-shot ability.

[spiesr]

Ebwop: Oh and spiesr, do you have your vote back? Can you vote someone other than Jak as a test please?

As far as I know. (I was not informed of losing it again today.) Vote Strike Wolf As the requested test.

[DoomYoshi]

You shot on night 1, a vig tactic that's universally despised, especially since there are three other actions that could have helped town.

There was a time when I agreed with you. I started a thread once (not on this board) debating whether or not vigs who shoot N1 should be modkilled for playing against victory conditions. Over time my thinking changed. Let me say that there a heck of a ton of good and great players who say that a vig who doesn't shoot N1 is anti-town. I also agree with that. A vig is like a cop, except the results aren't debatable. After watcher, it's the most powerful standard ability. Mafia is 100% end-game. Eventually, we will be down to a few players. Nothing matters until that point. The vig helps keep control of that point in town hands and not in scum.

@Jak: you fucked yourself. There's no way I can defend you all day long now. There are probably enough 3rd-party and scum who know how to egg you on and keep this wagon going. FTR, the only thing you did wrong was create a big distraction that didn't allow other cases to develop.

[Jmac1026]

I like Strike Wolf's theories on the Clock. I think we wait to see if the Clock strikes again or not. It may have been a 1-shot ability.

Kinda WIFOM-y, but I don't know why anyone would waste the clock on the first day/night period if it were only 1-shot. I could imagine a good way to balance it would be that it had a recharge period, i.e. use D1, recharges D2, etc. Makes things a little more balanced, although still seems like it would be a way overpowered ability. Not that this game has any real guarantee of balance.

Anarkist is alive and posting so far today.

Fp'd by Doomyoshi. I can partially agree with you on that Doom, except that Jak (whatever his alleged justifications) basically put out a shot in the dark last night. He chose a guy that he felt was scummy. No other reasoning, no big slips by Zivel, no general discussion with others on who they would lynch given the chance. Just bam, random target. We get no information from that. Every kill directed by town should have a reasoning behind it. Especially in a game with no Vanilla roles, where there are random alignments. We could have used that kill later on in the game. Now he's going to be wagoned and lynched before the day is out, unless something dramatic happens, and if he is actually town, we are now down one kill action.

[DoomYoshi]

The levels of irony are deep here. I was going to suggest that jak should read http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=609&t=179991&p=3931343.

But then I saw that his post was the first one in reply. It's just a failure to self-analyze.

As Socrates may have said "the unexamined life is not worth living".

Mafia seems to be about looking at other players and finding their flaws. Until you can find your own, don't show up.

vote jak

[jak111]

Ebwop: Oh and spiesr, do you have your vote back? Can you vote someone other than Jak as a test please?

You want me dead, why bother saying other than Jak? I could say who I believe the next in line is the next scummiest, but as you and others have pointed out, this is no longer a to hunt scum day, this is just a "lynch the guy who was wrong" day. That in its self speaks major vibes of what some alignments are.

Two of my roles are better saved for N3/N4 with my other role more for N2 if we get some information to go on D2. But as I am going to die, they are useless. I used the kill because it was the ONLY role I have that would give us results for Night 1. As I figure, I'm already outed D1, Chances are I am not going to live until D5, so I am going to use my most productive roles first. I used my kill role on a guy I believed to be scummy. Keeping the other 3 roles to choose from when we have more information.

Someone even said it yesterday when I was defending Rodion that to kill people early on when you think they're scummy is better than trying to build up a case later. It's a for sure check that's either right or wrong. No WIFOM and no lying to protect it.

If you have a problem with me being an OUTED PR (which was NOT my choice) and doing what I believed right, say so. Don't hide being me being "anti-town". Claiming I'm on a high-horse when people are claiming to be superior that THEY would never make a bad kill if they had a killing power (I know not the exact wording, but close enough).

I killed Zivel, get over it. This is Mafia, I did what I thought would be a good move to kill a scummy player early on. I did not know his role neither did anyone else. Killing him was as good as any other kill I could of done last night.

If all claims and actions were on the table, I could ask many of you why you did whatever you did to someone last night and why it was them. The only difference between my action and yours is mine gave results. As of right now, my role is the only one that gave results to the entire town, everyone else have results but only known to them and not helping town in any way shape or form right now.

If you want me dead, place down the vote, show your real colours. At this point half the votes are admitting they already believe me to be town. But hey, let's just kill me anyway. That's sure to help town in the long run. I've even said that was my only killer power, so the rest are more beneficial for like I said, when we know more information.

But lets not even bother kidding each other, I could of stayed silent if I was anti-town letting you believe Mafia killed him with only I and them knowing it not true. Instead I outed the information that Mafia did NOT make a kill last night. It's not because a protective role, they were suppose to have another whole day to send in actions and didn't get the time.

Finally, my last bit of thing for tonight, some of you are saying "Yeah, lets look into someone else" Time is ticking away like that clock. It's one thing to say you will do something, it's another thing to actually do it.

FP'd Four times.

@ Doom, I know.

Well, I'm in the game, so the pot shall be stirred one way or another..

Let's consider the pot.. stirred.

I personally find that the entire case is a load of BS that just might have some scum hiding in its midst egging on more reactions. It's just creating a big wagon that is not for the town's benefit, unfortunally there's actual townies trying to pitch in that actually don't care any longer because they are on a little high horse trying to sound all mighty that they'd be right if they were in my shoes.

@ Jmac, "If he's actually town" listen to what others are saying, they're saying up front I'm town. But I'm an "easy lynch" so to speak with REAL town hopping on board. You make it sound like I took a potshot at 20 different targets. No, I eliminated some people form killing last night and had about a list of 6 different candidates with Zivel's constant pushing for a 2nd death D1 just a bit too non-townie for my liking. I took a shot at a read I felt was good, it was wrong. Not every kill or action PR's are going to do is right or else we'd have a tracker watcher AND cop all outing 3 different scum since they just so happen to PERFECTLY hit every single night. We probably have a regular vig already, I doubt I had the only town kill action in the game. I used up one of my 4 actions, trying to use them all before I die.

Just be glad I admitted to killing him and be glad I didn't waste any protection roles last night.

FP'd by DoomYoshi, really? You think I'm taking this personally just because I'm getting heated up about the BS case on me? You and I BOTH know there's mafia on it and what I did had its own justification. Now it might be a mix of town and scum hopping on board because "Hey, let's kill the guy that other townies are making into an easy lynch and cast the blame on him completely for it". Not one has said I am justified enough to make a choice with my night actions as I believe right.

It saddens me that people think I should have no right to an opinion on how to use my night actions at night with what I have for night actions.

Also Tail's activity has been up, just very small posts.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Literally, if town wants my help, show it. They wonder why I'm coming off as anti-town it's because no one is here trying to help out at all. I've claimed and am expected to report to you, but if I'm honest I'm yet again attacked.

That's why I'm more of a not going to bend over for anyone attitude this game. I'm sick of all my theories being called shit just because they're a bit out there sometimes. It's better than doing nothing all day like I could copy some of you and lay low with small inputs here and there with nothing trying to add value.

Get over yourself, bud. If you're genuine, then people are voting you because you're dropping some serious scum vibes. Also, your theories are shit because you have no filter. Making crazy theories doesn't really help much. It might go better if you operate on information you can actually derive into usable information.

It's been a while since I've played a game, and I don't remember much about how you play, but honestly I'm having a hard time believing someone who's been around for a while now can paint themselves so horribly.

-Tails

[spiesr]

I killed Zivel, get over it.

I am afraid that isn't how this works. You did thing X and we know about it, now everyone will use that thing towards judging if you are town or not. You can't tell them not to. You can only try to explain things in such manner as to guide them in the direction you want. (Which you have/are attempting.)

But lets not even bother kidding each other, I could of stayed silent if I was anti-town letting you believe Mafia killed him with only I and them knowing it not true. Instead I outed the information that Mafia did NOT make a kill last night.

Not sharing that information would have not been a very town friendly thing to do more often than not. Accordingly the expectations placed on you almost demand that you told us that if you want people to think you are town.

It's not because a protective role, they were suppose to have another whole day to send in actions and didn't get the time.

That is the conclusion that most of us find probable at this point, but it definitely isn't a sure thing yet.

[jak111]

^ At least you understand I'm trying to explain my action. Out of the actions available to me, it was the only one useful for the night and against a guy I believed to be scum.

[strike wolf]

Ebwop: Oh and spiesr, do you have your vote back? Can you vote someone other than Jak as a test please?

You want me dead, why bother saying other than Jak? I could say who I believe the next in line is the next scummiest, but as you and others have pointed out, this is no longer a to hunt scum day, this is just a "lynch the guy who was wrong" day. That in its self speaks major vibes of what some alignments are.

I believe you should be the lynch at the end of the day. This does not exclude other discussion at this point I am actually an advocate of lynching you but not going too quick about it because I want to talk about others today as well. For one thing, I was hoping someone would rejuvenate the Nark case to see if I understood it better if it was put together more in one post but so far that hasn't happened.

Two of my roles are better saved for N3/N4 with my other role more for N2 if we get some information to go on D2. But as I am going to die, they are useless. I used the kill because it was the ONLY role I have that would give us results for Night 1. As I figure, I'm already outed D1, Chances are I am not going to live until D5, so I am going to use my most productive roles first. I used my kill role on a guy I believed to be scummy. Keeping the other 3 roles to choose from when we have more information.

I would go as far as to say that an unused vig kill is better than a vig kill that was mostly random.

Someone even said it yesterday when I was defending Rodion that to kill people early on when you think they're scummy is better than trying to build up a case later. It's a for sure check that's either right or wrong. No WIFOM and no lying to protect it.

You are misquoting Spiesr horribly. What he said was that it was better to question comments early by experienced players than try to make one late game.

If you have a problem with me being an OUTED PR (which was NOT my choice) and doing what I believed right, say so. Don't hide being me being "anti-town". Claiming I'm on a high-horse when people are claiming to be superior that THEY would never make a bad kill if they had a killing power (I know not the exact wording, but close enough).

Sorry but you are the only one on your high horse. What the other people have said is only to try to get you to listen to others. Other than that. This has nothing to do with your PR. Your Avatar JOAT claim yesterday was what got me to hesitate voting you back then. So please don't put words in my mouth.

I killed Zivel, get over it. This is Mafia, I did what I thought would be a good move to kill a scummy player early on. I did not know his role neither did anyone else. Killing him was as good as any other kill I could of done last night.

I will not get over it and the logic here is why. You are unapologetic. Every intent seems to be that you will make similar moves in the future when given the chance. These are moves that hurt town more often than not in games. YOU DO NOT LISTEN TO OTHERS AT ALL! That is why I cannot let this go. Why I cannot just "get over it".

If all claims and actions were on the table, I could ask many of you why you did whatever you did to someone last night and why it was them. The only difference between my action and yours is mine gave results. As of right now, my role is the only one that gave results to the entire town, everyone else have results but only known to them and not helping town in any way shape or form right now.

The difference is that if I protected someone, I didn't kill them. If I investigated someone. I didn't kill them. If I role blocked someone. I didn't kill them. If I busdrove someone, I didn't kill them. If I chose any non-vig action that could have been on my table. I didn't kill them. Dead townies don't help town.

If you want me dead, place down the vote, show your real colours. At this point half the votes are admitting they already believe me to be town. But hey, let's just kill me anyway. That's sure to help town in the long run. I've even said that was my only killer power, so the rest are more beneficial for like I said, when we know more information.

But lets not even bother kidding each other, I could of stayed silent if I was anti-town letting you believe Mafia killed him with only I and them knowing it not true. Instead I outed the information that Mafia did NOT make a kill last night. It's not because a protective role, they were suppose to have another whole day to send in actions and didn't get the time.

Finally, my last bit of thing for tonight, some of you are saying "Yeah, lets look into someone else" Time is ticking away like that clock. It's one thing to say you will do something, it's another thing to actually do it.

FP'd Four times.

@ Doom, I know.

Well, I'm in the game, so the pot shall be stirred one way or another..

Let's consider the pot.. stirred.

I personally find that the entire case is a load of BS that just might have some scum hiding in its midst egging on more reactions. It's just creating a big wagon that is not for the town's benefit, unfortunally there's actual townies trying to pitch in that actually don't care any longer because they are on a little high horse trying to sound all mighty that they'd be right if they were in my shoes.

@ Jmac, "If he's actually town" listen to what others are saying, they're saying up front I'm town. But I'm an "easy lynch" so to speak with REAL town hopping on board. You make it sound like I took a potshot at 20 different targets. No, I eliminated some people form killing last night and had about a list of 6 different candidates with Zivel's constant pushing for a 2nd death D1 just a bit too non-townie for my liking. I took a shot at a read I felt was good, it was wrong. Not every kill or action PR's are going to do is right or else we'd have a tracker watcher AND cop all outing 3 different scum since they just so happen to PERFECTLY hit every single night. We probably have a regular vig already, I doubt I had the only town kill action in the game. I used up one of my 4 actions, trying to use them all before I die.

Just be glad I admitted to killing him and be glad I didn't waste any protection roles last night.

FP'd by DoomYoshi, really? You think I'm taking this personally just because I'm getting heated up about the BS case on me? You and I BOTH know there's mafia on it and what I did had its own justification. Now it might be a mix of town and scum hopping on board because "Hey, let's kill the guy that other townies are making into an easy lynch and cast the blame on him completely for it". Not one has said I am justified enough to make a choice with my night actions as I believe right.

It saddens me that people think I should have no right to an opinion on how to use my night actions at night with what I have for night actions.

Also Tail's activity has been up, just very small posts.

[HotShot53]

After reading all the discussions today... I actually get a more townish vibe on jak today than I did yesterday. Him admitting to killing zivel, although obviously a mistake, and I disagree with the reasons for it, seem to show he's trying to give us info such as the mafia took too long and didn't get their kill in (most likely). I don't think he'd admit to killing zivel if he actually was scum.

I disagree with policy lynching people you think are probably town just because you don't like their attitude. I know jak (and often nark) can get annoying... but that alone isn't a reason to lynch them.

[jonty125]

vote jak and this time I do mean jak. Shooting N1, is a risk, and it didn't pay off.

If anyone should be explaining things, it should be this clock guy. It's not mafia role as Mafia definitely failed last night. So it's either a premature town role or a third party role.

The clock guy, has just screwed mafia over and you want him to come out. Anybody else having a hard time processing that?

Also, jak, you need to breathe. Look at yourself, multiple people are saying you are on a high horse / ivory tower / other metaphor. Now we can make two conclusions from here 1) It's a conspiracy and everyone is out to get you. 2) They are right. No more needs to be said on that matter I believe.


Side Note: Doom is posting

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Hmm, I don't believe I'll be participating in the jak lynch. Just something about it that got some serious funk about it. We have a guy who ruffles some feathers D1, claims without any real pressure, and now conveniently fesses up to killing Zivel while dropping some hilariously bad hypocritical posts and scum tells?

It's a little too neat for me and reeks of a ploy.

-Tails

[aage]

Hmm, I don't believe I'll be participating in the jak lynch. Just something about it that got some serious funk about it. We have a guy who ruffles some feathers D1, claims without any real pressure, and now conveniently fesses up to killing Zivel while dropping some hilariously bad hypocritical posts and scum tells?

It's a little too neat for me and reeks of a ploy.

-Tails

Sometimes, if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and smells like a duck, we actually have to assume it might be a duck. WIFOM'ing away every strong case doesn't help either.

Also, Jak contradicts you in one of his latest posts:

If you have a problem with me being an OUTED PR (which was NOT my choice) and doing what I believed right, say so.

Apparently he did not want to claim, but two people asking for a claim and five people stating they do not really believe in the case was enough? Read back and see.

[Iron Butterfly]

We had a bad storm and internet was down,,,Time Warner sucks. all I could think of was the clock person, my pony and the day ending early.

Everything that could be said about Jak has been said I think. Its pretty much same crap different game. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. I remember Jaks first game where he introduced himself in this big wordy speech saying his goal was to be considered one of the best mafia players. Listening to him rationalize bad decisions IF he is indeed Town is annoying as hell.

He is a Joat who had a vig ability. Maybe i read wrong but he seemed to say that he had to use it or lose it night one?

Anyway vote Jak

Jonty thats my horse.

[DoomYoshi]

After sleeping on it, unvote. There are too many players to just start lynching someone who I think is probably town.

My case on Nark is only based on gut feeling (I am not a fan of appeals to emotion) and anti-meta. Other players may have other cases, but they all sucked in my eyes.

betiko is inactive... again. Yet he is on every day. Scummarrining to the max.

vote betiko

[pancakemix]

Vote Count

Jak - 5 (jmac, Rodion, aage, SW, Jonty, IB)
Strike Wolf - 1 (Spiesr)
Betiko - 1 (Doom)

Jonty is currently without a horse.

With 20 alive it takes 11 to lynch! Deadline is May 22nd at 11:59 PM ET.

[jonty125]

Jonty thats my horse.

No, no it isn't. IB that's my horse.

[strike wolf]

Updating the list.

1. Strike->KGB (Just posted today and has been active)
2. Anarkist>Aage
3. IB->Whatsausage
4. Aage>Lootifer
5. Lootifer>Spiesr
6. Rodion>Edoc
7. Doomyoshi>Betiko
8. Spiesr>TFO MudPuppy
9. Jak>Tails
10. Hotshot>Strike
11. Jmac>Anarkist
12. Whatsausage->Sheep
13. Jonty->Doomyoshi
14. Tails>Hotshot
15. Neb>Jak
16. KGB->IB
17. Edoc>Neb
18. Sheep->Jonty125
19. Betiko>Jmac
20. Mudpupp>Rodion

Alright Spiesr has a vote. That officially clears Spiesr's lost vote being a prerequisite for the horse game. As of right now, Spiesr appears town in my eyes.

[Iron Butterfly]

Edocsil that's my horse.

Betiko is usually very opinionated and chatty. Where is he? We have a pool of 9 who have been involved with the horse game. We have 11 not involved. I suspect one of those eleven is the horse game lyncher. yes I know master of the obvious.

[kgb007]

Have to agree with Hotshot here and tails to a lesser extent. I get a town vibe from Jak. It make no sense for him to claim the zivel kill if he were scum. I already stated I don't agree with his logic and N1 action but I also don't agree with lynching someone bc they're playing poorly when they're town. Pushing for that is scummy.

Don't get all in a huff about it Jak. Just reconcile with the fact that most people don't agree that your strategy so far in this game has been executed well. I'll be looking back at the votes put on jak and examining the reasons as it's likely not an all town bandwagon.

[Nebuchadnezer]

After reading all the discussions today... I actually get a more townish vibe on jak today than I did yesterday. Him admitting to killing zivel, although obviously a mistake, and I disagree with the reasons for it, seem to show he's trying to give us info such as the mafia took too long and didn't get their kill in (most likely). I don't think he'd admit to killing zivel if he actually was scum.

I disagree with policy lynching people you think are probably town just because you don't like their attitude. I know jak (and often nark) can get annoying... but that alone isn't a reason to lynch them.

I don't like this post. You are not clearly understanding why jak should be lynched. He is saying that killing a person based on one day's actions and posts was better than waiting a day. Yet when we apply that thinking to his actions, we are all stupid for doing so. He has set a double standard. He can kill on a whim while nobody can judge him even though the evidence is more damming.

Just think, had jak not killed, we'd have all town left, and less of a circus show.

The fact that hotshot claims we are killing a maybe town role just becausehe's annoying is very suspicious and misleading...especially when jak is not acting completely town. Is he mafia? Probably not. 3rd party? Most likely. Sk? Definitely possible. Town? Might be.

At this point, we have to look elsewhere...and I'm looking at hotshot...fos hotshot.

Fpd by a couple...I don't see how pushing for jak lynch is scummy. I'd be more concerned with the inactive or those not voting, because only mafia knows jak could be town and thus staying off the wagon so they can claim town later. Either way kgb, it's wifom to say who is our is not voting jak. I don't like your thinking either...fos kgb007

[aage]

It make no sense for him to claim the zivel kill if he were scum.

Yes, it does. Imagine you were scum and just claimed JOAT. You haven't said anything about your abilities except that there are four. The next night, your mafia team kills one of the other players (perhaps even on Jak's urgings - it wouldn't strike me as strange if Jak would immediately try to take the upper hand in a 48-hour night with some people breathing down his neck) which gives you an excellent opportunity to claim that you used 'the only ability that would yield result'. Or, to put it differently: it is the only action that the town knows to have transpired, since pcm posted the death scene with absolutely no indication as to the intentions of Zivel's killer(s).

It's beautiful on several levels. First of all, nobody can call you a liar based on whether you actually put in the action, because Zivel clearly is dead. Secondly, anyone tracking you will have actually seen you visit Zivel if you put in the kill, so nobody can call you a liar based on whether you had anything to do with the murder. Lastly, you cannot be asked to use the kill ability again to 'prove' your towniness, because you already have.


So yes, it would make sense.

Of course, me laying out the scenario like this doesn't prove anything regarding Jak's alignments but I hope you understand why I don't buy the "he wouldn't dare"-argument.

[MudPuppy]

Still playing catch up and have a day of soccer tourneys. Will post again tonight.

In the meantime, I'll report that Rodion has posted (and voted) D2.
Guess is that horse game is strictly a mod-generated side game (no players involved).

[spiesr]

[The fact that hotshot claims we are killing a maybe town role just because he's annoying is very suspicious and misleading...especially when jak is not acting completely town. Is he mafia? Probably not. 3rd party? Most likely. Sk? Definitely possible. Town? Might be.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the only way Jak would be 3rd party is if he is lying about being a JOAT. (Or perhaps really stretching the term.) For all pancakemix says about alignment being random there is a pattern to what ends up as 3rd party in these games. The 3rd party roles have all been ones where the alignment grows out of the role rather than being randomly assigned afterwords.

Hmm, I don't believe I'll be participating in the jak lynch. Just something about it that got some serious funk about it. We have a guy who ruffles some feathers D1, claims without any real pressure, and now conveniently fesses up to killing Zivel while dropping some hilariously bad hypocritical posts and scum tells?

It's a little too neat for me and reeks of a ploy.

I am fairly confident that this isn't an intentional ploy on Jak's part.

Anyhow, I am torn on the Jak situation right now. On one hand he is scummy. His posts keep tripping an alarm in my head that ring out "Scum!" On the other hand I can't help but get the feeling that a bunch of this might just be natural results of the way Jak plays and not be that indicative of his alignment.
I wish that we had another viable case right now so that we could decide between lynching A or B instead of what he have. I don't have time to make one myself at the moment though.