Power Role Draft Mafia - Town Wins!

[Some7hingCLEVER]

I don't think Clever's scummy, it seems to me he's just a n00b, still trying to get out of thse n00b shoes.

Tell me about it these things are to small for my feet

[pmchugh]

As for the PMC case you brought up, I do not think it is particularly scummy that he brought up a mass claim (except for I cant really see any use in it) but probably at least one person on the freezie wagon was scum. It would surprise me if there wasnt at least one on the wagon. But until he slips up more, maybe under applied pressure, I do not feel comfortable taking sides on this case.

Bringing it up is a fantastic way to start the talking on day 1 and take us out of the random vote stage. Not to mention the fact there is a decent argument for a partial claim IMO.

Okay, I will start by, saying no matter what, the Freezie wagon was scummy. No matter how you flip it or phrase it, Freezie should NOT of had that many votes that quickly after calling out his inactivity. Out of all the wagoners, I thought Clever looked the scummiest.

I don't see why this wagon was particularly scummy, I think most scum that seen it happening would be happy to let it run its course and let the townies incriminate themselves. Also picking on clever is easy due to the lack of conviction he had in his actions and if there is one thing mafia love it is an easy townie to go after. This makes me feel rather uneasy about people who are quick to accuse him.

He UNVOTES, before freezie even checks in. Now why would he do that? I thought his vote was on Freezie for him to check in the first place? That makes no sense to take it off.

So it wasnt JUST the L-3 that made me think clever was scummy, it was the whole thing from start to finish. I particularly thought L-3 is scummy, because L-2 is claim zone, and I didn't think Freeze should have necessarily had to claim right away, if he had a reasonable explanation why he hasn't posted and posted something that was contributing.

Someone could still get lynched at L-3 in normal games. A hated townie combined with a double voter could have freezie dead before he claims. Now, in this setup there is no hated townies so that point isn't valid. But putting someone at L-3 trips my normal scumdar anyday.

L-3 means nothing. No one is going to speed lynch someone on day 1 and there are no ultra noobs who would pre-claim hammer. L-3 is a bit of pressure, but there is no danger of a lynch.

PMC is on my FOS list because he was on the freezie wagon, AND he was advocating for the mass claim. he "said" he didnt want freezie to claim but just to post, who knows if that was his real intention. He also conceded his argument for mass claiming and knows its not a great idea. again, who knows, maybe he is mafia playing games. This is my first game with PMC so I don't know if its his aggressiveness he claimed or not, so I didn't voice my concerns about him out loud, but I do have my eyes on him.

I didn't bandwagon at all. I started the votes on freezie, there is a marked difference. I made my intentions perfectly clear from the start and throughout the duration of my vote and that was to get freezie to post something useful. Do you honestly believe I started that wagon in the hope of getting a lynch?

Again, like everywhere you failed to give any reason as to why what I am doing indicates me to be mafia. You used the term "who knows" twice in that paragraph because you completely failed to link what I was doing to what mafia would do.

Your arguments seem pretty illogical and there is a major doubt over your intentions. It seems like you are trying too hard to look townie by waiting for the majority of the town to push in a particular direction before committing to it.

[freezie]

And freezie, ..backed off before nobody called me on it? Why dont you read a few of the post before I backed off ...i was definitely called on it..i think you just found a good way to get attention off of yourself and ran with it even when it didn't make sense

Between your vote on me and your unvote, most of the stuff were pointed at Nag. There was ONE mention of something that mya have looked like they called you on it, and it's Mob saying the bandwaggon on me went too far too quickly

Your name has not been spoken in between your vote and unvote.


Add skimming to your case. You were not called on it.

[freezie]

Also, what is with the freezie wagon? It seems a little bit early to start pushing against inactives, I personally haven't been able to post over the last couple of days because I have been at work, down the pub/club and asleep. Everyone is pretty busy during the week so I am sure freezie will have a chance to catch up soon.

There's this, too, that has been said about it. It's clearly a comment against the BW on it's own, though.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

the post mob said that you mentioned is why I backed off ...i guess he didnt directly point me out but i figured he would this is why i backed off but it was to late obviously ..guess it was to late when I cast the vote...if your gonna push on with this case be my guest i will defend to the best of my ability..but honestly the only thing u have on me is using my brain realizing that it was a bad choice to vote you and backing off "to fast"

Fastposted by freezie
Ya I saw that but mobs is the one that caught my attention

[spiesr]

I didn't bandwagon at all. I started the votes on freezie, there is a marked difference. I made my intentions perfectly clear from the start and throughout the duration of my vote and that was to get freezie to post something useful. Do you honestly believe I started that wagon in the hope of getting a lynch?

If you are scum and freezie is not then I could see you starting a case early on Day 1 in the hopes that momentum takes over and it eventually leads to a lynch.

Mob u say that one reason my vote was scummy was cause I put no reason behind my vote...well look at the two before me "inactive hunting" and "lets see that smile of yours" ..are those good reasons that your looking for?

So why did you join in with those others on that bandwagon if you thought the reasons behind their votes weren't good enough?

[Some7hingCLEVER]

I never said they weren't good enough mob said mines wasn't and there's were the same as mines lol I was just pointing out a whole in his case thats all

[MoB Deadly]

I didn't bandwagon at all. I started the votes on freezie, there is a marked difference. I made my intentions perfectly clear from the start and throughout the duration of my vote and that was to get freezie to post something useful. Do you honestly believe I started that wagon in the hope of getting a lynch?

Again, like everywhere you failed to give any reason as to why what I am doing indicates me to be mafia. You used the term "who knows" twice in that paragraph because you completely failed to link what I was doing to what mafia would do.

Your arguments seem pretty illogical and there is a major doubt over your intentions. It seems like you are trying too hard to look townie by waiting for the majority of the town to push in a particular direction before committing to it.

True you did, I take that back. And no I don't, I don't think you would be that dumb as scum, and nor do I think you knew there were going to be so many votes following yours.

Mafia wants Town claims. Period. Through natural pressure, or through mass claiming. They want to know who is what so they know who they can safely kill.

I know its hard to prove, but I haven't checked the thread between my post on page 10 and my post on page 13. If was able to check the game when Rodion made the vote count I would have made the FOS on Clever then, I wouldn't have waited until everyone else said something. When I see something I will point it out, no matter if its 1 hour after the incident or 3 pages after it.

And you may see some of my non-commitalness because I will freely admit I am not a Case Maker. I'm not one of the leaders that usually establish themselves in a game. I am better at picking apart debates and things, not seeing another player actions and translating their intentions. Especially day 1. I am not scared to admit I am not a good day 1 player, so I will stand on the sidelines a bit and let the natural leaders take charge while I take notes. Now that doesnt mean Im not going to participate at all, if there's post about me or questions I can answer I will do it, but I am not going to try to lead the game in a direction because I am simply not good at scum hunting this way.

QFT

Mob u say that one reason my vote was scummy was cause I put no reason behind my vote...well look at the two before me "inactive hunting" and "lets see that smile of yours" ..are those good reasons that your looking for?

So why did you join in with those others on that bandwagon if you thought the reasons behind their votes weren't good enough?

Okay - Fastposted by Ghostly -

Right, I think I said this before. Just dont skim the vote count before you vote. Thats it. You made a mistake that's fine I can get over it. Other players are thinking I am advocating for your lynch for this mistake and I am not. My vote is on you right now because there is no other case here. If there is an announced deadline that is close, then maybe I would advocate pressuring you instead of someone else, but right now there is no need to pressure you.

[pmchugh]

I didn't bandwagon at all. I started the votes on freezie, there is a marked difference. I made my intentions perfectly clear from the start and throughout the duration of my vote and that was to get freezie to post something useful. Do you honestly believe I started that wagon in the hope of getting a lynch?

Again, like everywhere you failed to give any reason as to why what I am doing indicates me to be mafia. You used the term "who knows" twice in that paragraph because you completely failed to link what I was doing to what mafia would do.

Your arguments seem pretty illogical and there is a major doubt over your intentions. It seems like you are trying too hard to look townie by waiting for the majority of the town to push in a particular direction before committing to it.

True you did, I take that back. And no I don't, I don't think you would be that dumb as scum, and nor do I think you knew there were going to be so many votes following yours.

Mafia wants Town claims. Period. Through natural pressure, or through mass claiming. They want to know who is what so they know who they can safely kill.

I know its hard to prove, but I haven't checked the thread between my post on page 10 and my post on page 13. If was able to check the game when Rodion made the vote count I would have made the FOS on Clever then, I wouldn't have waited until everyone else said something. When I see something I will point it out, no matter if its 1 hour after the incident or 3 pages after it.

And you may see some of my non-commitalness because I will freely admit I am not a Case Maker. I'm not one of the leaders that usually establish themselves in a game. I am better at picking apart debates and things, not seeing another player actions and translating their intentions. Especially day 1. I am not scared to admit I am not a good day 1 player, so I will stand on the sidelines a bit and let the natural leaders take charge while I take notes. Now that doesnt mean Im not going to participate at all, if there's post about me or questions I can answer I will do it, but I am not going to try to lead the game in a direction because I am simply not good at scum hunting this way.

QFT

Mob u say that one reason my vote was scummy was cause I put no reason behind my vote...well look at the two before me "inactive hunting" and "lets see that smile of yours" ..are those good reasons that your looking for?

So why did you join in with those others on that bandwagon if you thought the reasons behind their votes weren't good enough?

Okay - Fastposted by Ghostly -

Right, I think I said this before. Just dont skim the vote count before you vote. Thats it. You made a mistake that's fine I can get over it. Other players are thinking I am advocating for your lynch for this mistake and I am not. My vote is on you right now because there is no other case here. If there is an announced deadline that is close, then maybe I would advocate pressuring you instead of someone else, but right now there is no need to pressure you.

Town wants mafia to claim. It works both ways.

It's not that you are not making cases or leading that made me say that, it is that you seemed to be picking on clever as it became a popular choice rather than truly believing he was mafia. You argument about L-3 was illogical IMO and it makes me wonder if you genuinely thought it was a tell, or if you were just trying to make the case sound more dramatic.

Even if you were inactive in that whole time, it doesn't change the way you presented your argument and the fact that clever is/was an easy target.

[everywhere116]

I don't think Clever's scummy, it seems to me he's just a n00b, still trying to get out of thse n00b shoes.

Essentially this, although I think he should be watched from now on.

PMC, I find it weird that you have stated that neither MoB or I have given you a reason why either of us might believe that you are scum, even though we both have stated that a mass or partial claim will give too much information to the mafia and you kept pressing it.

EDIT FOR FASTPOST

Town wants mafia to claim. It works both ways.

Correct. You wanted people to claim based on position in the draft, not whether or not we thought they were scum.

[MoB Deadly]

I guess I will reiterate.

1. when I put my focus on him, I only "extreme fosed" him, I didn't even vote him until much later after he gave a defense that did not bode well with me.
2. I don't want anyone else to vote him unless they really think he is scummy
3. I am not pushing for him to claim at this time

-

The only thing that will make my change my mind is
1. He says more stuff that makes me believe he really is scum
2. He does something else reckless like voting without knowing how many votes that person has
3. We have a deadline that is imminent and the game has stalled.

Town wants mafia to claim. It works both ways.

It's not that you are not making cases or leading that made me say that, it is that you seemed to be picking on clever as it became a popular choice rather than truly believing he was mafia. You argument about L-3 was illogical IMO and it makes me wonder if you genuinely thought it was a tell, or if you were just trying to make the case sound more dramatic.

Even if you were inactive in that whole time, it doesn't change the way you presented your argument and the fact that clever is/was an easy target.

Town wants mafia to claim. It works both ways.

Correct. You wanted people to claim based on position in the draft, not whether or not we thought they were scum.

This.

[pmchugh]

I don't think Clever's scummy, it seems to me he's just a n00b, still trying to get out of thse n00b shoes.

Essentially this, although I think he should be watched from now on.

PMC, I find it weird that you have stated that neither MoB or I have given you a reason why either of us might believe that you are scum, even though we both have stated that a mass or partial claim will give too much information to the mafia and you kept pressing it.

EDIT FOR FASTPOST

Town wants mafia to claim. It works both ways.

Correct. You wanted people to claim based on position in the draft, not whether or not we thought they were scum.

Yes but I explained this.

The people at the top pretty much cannot fake claim. If they threw us a lifeline and took ninja then we would instantly catch them. If they didn't then you can monitor what they do, which means they have to have a justifiable action. Monitoring a townie wouldn't really hurt either. The only gain that arises for mafia is the protective roles being outed (bomb, bp and doc).

Although I did have a method to protect the doc, in that if you were doc you could say, "I am doc or bomb" and vise versa. The other one claims and then mafia don't know which is which. If the doc died then it would also cast suspicion on the bomb as it explains how they knew which to kill. I haven't really thought through all the scenarios and outcomes of this but I think it shows that we could have used this claiming system to really disrupt the plans of mafia.

It is certainly debatable whether it is a good thing, but I definitely think that the risk is greater for mafia.

Then the entirety of your guys cases is that I believe a mass claim would benefit the mafia quite significantly and that I thought this from the start. I think there has been a natural progression through the idea, thinking about how many should claim, from where in the list, the problems with it etc. We now have a much better understanding of what it would mean to do this than we did in the beginning.

Understanding, talking points, activity and information. That is what I have tried to provide the town and in my opinion they are 4 very valuable assets.

[shieldgenerator7]

So you're suggesting a psuedo-massclaim, where we know the two roles of two players but we don't know which one is which. This sounds cool, as it makes it difficult for mafia to choose the right one, or at least risky.
So you're suggesting pairs like this:

Doc or Bomb (risk of blowing up)
Cop or Bulletproof (risk of no kill)
Vig or Commuter (risk of no kill)
etc... the rest of the pairs don't really make taking a shot risky for Mafia, which is what this is about. But they might still be worth looking into to help confuse mafia.

Counter argument: if mafia has any one of these roles, then they'd be able to tell who the other person is. Such as if the mafia had the bomb, the bulletproof, or the commuter, they'd be able to tell who the doc, cop, and vig are. But if town owns all of them, this could work in throwing the mafia for a loop. Then again this can be used to find mafia roles: if the doc dies the night after the "doc or bomb" claim happens, then either the bomb is mafia or mafia took a really lucky guess.
Also, this is a tactic for a mass claim, which most players have sided against. However, outside of a massclaim, if we ever pressure a doctor into claiming, he can claim "doc or bomb" to give us a chance of not losing our doc the next night (same goes for bomb, but only to ensure that this tactic holds up). This sounds like a good tactic.

-SG7 ( )

[pmchugh]

I was thinking something along those lines if it came to it but like I said I hadn't thought it all the way through due to the fact a mass claim didn't look likely. You are right tho it is something to consider for later in the game.

I think we need a deadline, nothing much is happening.

[Rodion]

Deadline in 10 days (exactly 240 hours from now).

Vote count later.

[spiesr]

Then again this can be used to find mafia roles: if the doc dies the night after the "doc or bomb" claim happens, then either the bomb is mafia or mafia took a really lucky guess.

Or, based on the collective information from their draft positions relative to the claimee and what role the got from their lists, the mafia might simply have enough information to figure out which it is...

[shieldgenerator7]

Then again this can be used to find mafia roles: if the doc dies the night after the "doc or bomb" claim happens, then either the bomb is mafia or mafia took a really lucky guess.

Or, based on the collective information from their draft positions relative to the claimee and what role the got from their lists, the mafia might simply have enough information to figure out which it is...

yes, that would be the "lucky guess" part (altho you're suggesting it relies more on logic than luck, which is valid)

[alt1978]

I know it didn't get much traction earlier (quite possibly because the idea sucked) but if the goal is to narrow down fake claims available to mafia (which i think is a good thing) should we start from the bottom up in considering the roles? If we could identify the 3-4 most likely...say maybe even probable roles that were not selected...it seems like it would really put the mafia in a tight box about what they could claim.
Let's say we identify 4 roles that are simply not likely to have been chosen...(again only if that is possible...i'm getting into ground i'm not sure of here)...but then it would more or less make everyone claim true...or run the risk of claiming something super skummy. Of course up front someone could say that they have one of those roles perhaps...and the logistics of compiling such a list may be too hard.
However...there is little risk of exposing critical roles this way, and it would give us more information to work with and maybe put the mafia into a tighter box.

[Ragian]

Also, this is a tactic for a mass claim, which most players have sided against. However, outside of a massclaim, if we ever pressure a doctor into claiming, he can claim "doc or bomb" to give us a chance of not losing our doc the next night (same goes for bomb, but only to ensure that this tactic holds up).

What if we force scum into claiming and he or she claims "doc or bomb"? Would you want the real doc and/or the real bomb (if included) to counter them? This may out the doc, which is hardly in the interest of the town. Or am I missing something?

[freezie]

Too many people are too focused on trying to guess how to make a partial/full mass claim work.

It won't. We need to scum hunt the old fashioned way until we have more info on possible roles. ON day 1 it's not going to lead us anywhere.

[Ragian]

Too many people are too focused on trying to guess how to make a partial/full mass claim work.

It won't. We need to scum hunt the old fashioned way until we have more info on possible roles. ON day 1 it's not going to lead us anywhere.

So are you saying random pressure?

[Ragian]

Also, last time dazza said anything was four days ago (March . He's usually very talkative in our forum games

[ghostly447]

Sitting at the top of that list...I'm not sure how I feel about being pressured to claim. A couple of folks have put some pressure on me now. How about we have people claim in alphabetical order...no wait...shit. That doesn't help me either. Is there anything besides order of draft that we should be looking at or in this kind of game is that focal point day one? If inactivity is still a scummy tell since we appear to be heading out joke stage...Ragian hasn't said anything for awhile now (comparative to other folks).
Fingernail clipping of uncertainty towards Ragian.

When starting from the top of the list, on a page long long ago, you said you did not want to start at the top of the list and provided this. I thought it was scummy before, but now?

I know it didn't get much traction earlier (quite possibly because the idea sucked) but if the goal is to narrow down fake claims available to mafia (which i think is a good thing) should we start from the bottom up in considering the roles? If we could identify the 3-4 most likely...say maybe even probable roles that were not selected...it seems like it would really put the mafia in a tight box about what they could claim.
Let's say we identify 4 roles that are simply not likely to have been chosen...(again only if that is possible...i'm getting into ground i'm not sure of here)...but then it would more or less make everyone claim true...or run the risk of claiming something super skummy. Of course up front someone could say that they have one of those roles perhaps...and the logistics of compiling such a list may be too hard.
However...there is little risk of exposing critical roles this way, and it would give us more information to work with and maybe put the mafia into a tighter box.

In my opinion this post did not help your case any. So therefore, I beleive this is either a scumtell, or I am screwing the town over in calling out our doctor. Either way, your constant suggestions of trying to get away from claiming does not sit well with me in the least, and therefore I Vote Alt because of trying NOT to claim. It is either fear of not being able to fake claim, or fear that your claim is going to be bad for the town (in that you are doc, or another very important role). For now, I believe that the chance of you being mafia outweighs the chance of you being town.

[dazza2008]

Also, last time dazza said anything was four days ago (March . He's usually very talkative in our forum games

I've been pretty busy. Getting drunk and being an arse and stuff. I told you this did I not?

I will have a re-read and hopefully post something tonight. It is too hard when the kids are awake to do anything.

[Djfireside]

Sitting at the top of that list...I'm not sure how I feel about being pressured to claim. A couple of folks have put some pressure on me now. How about we have people claim in alphabetical order...no wait...shit. That doesn't help me either. Is there anything besides order of draft that we should be looking at or in this kind of game is that focal point day one? If inactivity is still a scummy tell since we appear to be heading out joke stage...Ragian hasn't said anything for awhile now (comparative to other folks).
Fingernail clipping of uncertainty towards Ragian.

When starting from the top of the list, on a page long long ago, you said you did not want to start at the top of the list and provided this. I thought it was scummy before, but now?

I know it didn't get much traction earlier (quite possibly because the idea sucked) but if the goal is to narrow down fake claims available to mafia (which i think is a good thing) should we start from the bottom up in considering the roles? If we could identify the 3-4 most likely...say maybe even probable roles that were not selected...it seems like it would really put the mafia in a tight box about what they could claim.
Let's say we identify 4 roles that are simply not likely to have been chosen...(again only if that is possible...i'm getting into ground i'm not sure of here)...but then it would more or less make everyone claim true...or run the risk of claiming something super skummy. Of course up front someone could say that they have one of those roles perhaps...and the logistics of compiling such a list may be too hard.
However...there is little risk of exposing critical roles this way, and it would give us more information to work with and maybe put the mafia into a tighter box.

In my opinion this post did not help your case any. So therefore, I beleive this is either a scumtell, or I am screwing the town over in calling out our doctor. Either way, your constant suggestions of trying to get away from claiming does not sit well with me in the least, and therefore I Vote Alt because of trying NOT to claim. It is either fear of not being able to fake claim, or fear that your claim is going to be bad for the town (in that you are doc, or another very important role). For now, I believe that the chance of you being mafia outweighs the chance of you being town.

I dont know why this appears strange that he would fight off having to claim as you stated,

It is either fear of not being able to fake claim, or fear that your claim is going to be bad for the town (in that you are doc, or another very important role).

He is first on the list so there is a very good chance based on the logistics of the game that he would be powerful to some degree. Could he be Mafia, yes but either way more than likely he has a more powerful role. This game has a different flavor and the first day everyone is trying to protect themselves since everyone has a power and being at the top of the list already puts a huge target on your head. I dont see it as a scum tell more as a he got the top slot and will be focused on no matter what so trying to defuse that.