Power Role Draft Mafia - Town Wins!

[alt1978]

Thank you pmc and spiesr for clearing up the suggestion about getting roles more out into the open. I think in rereading it you said something very similar the first time...I think I just didn't follow. I'm still not sure how I feel about everything getting out into the open, but I appreciate you taking the time to clear that up. Those arguments do make a little more sense than i had previously thought and I remove my suspicion about them for the time being.

[spiesr]

What is the difference between the cop, vig, doc etc being out or not when mafia can see who got the top roles already?

The people who drafted first my or may not have actually ended up with roles like cop, doc ect. Everyone has thier own priorities for which roles they would have put at the top of their list. For example, I was placed near the bottom of the draft and still got the my first choice of role. That, and knowing exactly which is which would be at least somewhat better (for the mafia) than just vaguely knowing who likely has a powerful role.

[ghostly447]

I just got called into work, so I'll have to keep this brief. That worked in Rolegift because you never got the same role twice. Making all actions public worked because the mafia couldn't kill you to remove that role. Here, while we all chose our roles more or less, they are permanent. Outing the vig, doc, cop, etc. before we needed them they would be prime targets for the mafia, and if we revealed a bunch of them it would be impossible to protect all of them.

What is the difference between the cop, vig, doc etc being out or not when mafia can see who got the top roles already?

I think I read that they could see who got the top roles, but could someone confirm the pmc didnt just now give us a hint of what the scum can see?

[dazza2008]

What is the difference between the cop, vig, doc etc being out or not when mafia can see who got the top roles already?

The people who drafted first my or may not have actually ended up with roles like cop, doc ect. Everyone has thier own priorities for which roles they would have put at the top of their list. For example, I was placed near the bottom of the draft and still got the my first choice of role. That, and knowing exactly which is which would be at least somewhat better (for the mafia) than just vaguely knowing who likely has a powerful role.

I agree. Everyone didn't have to pick the most powerful roles. They could have picked a role they just like or 1 they have never played as before.

[Djfireside]

its hit or miss based on the order because some people have a preference to certain roles so just determining the top of the list is a bit off just based on everyones preference. Some people may like to be masons or had a horrible time with power roles and choose something lower. The only thing that was benefical for the lower players is you know that someone above you may have something if you didnt get it.

[edocsil]

I just got called into work, so I'll have to keep this brief. That worked in Rolegift because you never got the same role twice. Making all actions public worked because the mafia couldn't kill you to remove that role. Here, while we all chose our roles more or less, they are permanent. Outing the vig, doc, cop, etc. before we needed them they would be prime targets for the mafia, and if we revealed a bunch of them it would be impossible to protect all of them.

What is the difference between the cop, vig, doc etc being out or not when mafia can see who got the top roles already?

I think I read that they could see who got the top roles, but could someone confirm the pmc didnt just now give us a hint of what the scum can see?

FOS ghostly. You should be able to clearly tell that we can all make educated guesses as to who got the best roles. Those at the top of the list, available to all.

[everywhere116]

I like the reasoning, and agree that we should be going after the ones who pushed it....but that wasn't spieser. That was pmc. He was the driving force behind the mass claim, speiser was just giving tacit consideration like any rational player would. Looking back, it was pmc that first came up with the idea, the one that advocated for it, the one that disparaged edocsil for disagreeing with it, and then continued to argue it;s merits after it was clear that no one was going for it.

So after everyone stops agreeing with it, a mafia member would continue the push and a town member wouldn't?

Yes, because it gives the mafia information about who to target. As edocsil said, you were doc and cop fishing.

Why does willingness to get people to post their opinions on a topic even when an idea seems unlikely to happen appear scummy to you at all?

That's not how I would have phrased it.

What's even more strange is that he also intermittedly votes for freezie for inactivity.

I take full credit for all of the posts freezie has made, all of them have been in direct answer to my questions. I was the only one on that wagon (that you were part of) that stated I did not even want a claim, I just wanted posts. Again I was opinion hunting to give us more to go on.

Fine. the freezie part was peripheral to my argument anyway.

It was quite humorous to see the order of his posts on pages 7-8: Post giving support to claim plan, post giving further support to plan and accusing you (alt) of being a submariner despite having posted an hour before his post, you (alt) answer, he votes freezie. Then he disparages edocsil again, saying that the plan would give the town information, and in his next post votes freezie again. (This started the freezie BW which I, admittedly was a part of).

Vote PMC

Lol I go about scum hunting, pushing several people to post proper content and that is scummy? The bit in bold I already explained, it wasn't about the frequency he was posting with, it was simply that I asked him a direct question while he was clearly online and reading the mafia forums and he had not posted a response in an hour, is that not suspicious?

Not really. He could be knee deep in some other thread, not even realizing what was happening. Or not on his computer at all, or on another tab. For instance, I just spent about half an hour reading parts of the rolegift thread to get an idea of what speiser was talking about. The entire time my name was on the forums, and yet I wasn't paying attention to the current forum at all.

Yes I advocated mass claim (later changed to a few people claiming) and with very good reason.

1. There is a good chance scum picked roles which makes them immediately identifiable.

Like what?

2. Knowing exactly what the power roles do is beneficial. If you have a JOAT, you can see his kill and ask about his investigation openly. This gives you a second information source (night actions as well as day talking/votes) on the most powerful roles within the game and more information is certainly to the towns advantage.

When the time comes. Now is not that time.

3. Outing them doesn't lose as much as it would in a normal game because mafia already know who the powerful players are.

No they don't. Not really.

If people want to disagree then fine but the only counter argument being given is that it may not find scum, I however reckon we would have found 2 or at least 1 scum on day one if we had done this.

And it gives the mafia clear targets to hunt down.

Now, what would mafia gain from a mass claim? The only answer I can get is that they can kill the doc but he could be protected by a few different means. Honestly the gains for scum would be negligible.

See above.

[ghostly447]

I just got called into work, so I'll have to keep this brief. That worked in Rolegift because you never got the same role twice. Making all actions public worked because the mafia couldn't kill you to remove that role. Here, while we all chose our roles more or less, they are permanent. Outing the vig, doc, cop, etc. before we needed them they would be prime targets for the mafia, and if we revealed a bunch of them it would be impossible to protect all of them.

What is the difference between the cop, vig, doc etc being out or not when mafia can see who got the top roles already?

I think I read that they could see who got the top roles, but could someone confirm the pmc didnt just now give us a hint of what the scum can see?

FOS ghostly. You should be able to clearly tell that we can all make educated guesses as to who got the best roles. Those at the top of the list, available to all.

Never played a game like this, I am still confused. sorry.

[MoB Deadly]

catching up from page 10

[pmchugh]

So after everyone stops agreeing with it, a mafia member would continue the push and a town member wouldn't?

Yes, because it gives the mafia information about who to target. As edocsil said, you were doc and cop fishing.

This is the only part of your post where you actually say why something I did was scummy and it is extremely weak if not completely backwards. AFTER it becomes clear that there will NOT be a mass claim I continued to bring it up, what benefit does a mafia member get from this?

As for doc/cop the whole game is loaded, top half are likely all decent power roles there is barely any need. Bomb fishing would be a better refute.

Lol I go about scum hunting, pushing several people to post proper content and that is scummy? The bit in bold I already explained, it wasn't about the frequency he was posting with, it was simply that I asked him a direct question while he was clearly online and reading the mafia forums and he had not posted a response in an hour, is that not suspicious?

Not really. He could be knee deep in some other thread, not even realizing what was happening. Or not on his computer at all, or on another tab. For instance, I just spent about half an hour reading parts of the rolegift thread to get an idea of what speiser was talking about. The entire time my name was on the forums, and yet I wasn't paying attention to the current forum at all.

OK he could be afk whatever, how does this point to me being maf? I pressured someone aggressively to see what his response was, he gave it and I was satisfied so I unvoted. It's day 1 remember.

1. There is a good chance scum picked roles which makes them immediately identifiable.

Like what?

Framer and ninja can only be chosen by mafia, I asked the mod about this back at the start of the day.

2. Knowing exactly what the power roles do is beneficial. If you have a JOAT, you can see his kill and ask about his investigation openly. This gives you a second information source (night actions as well as day talking/votes) on the most powerful roles within the game and more information is certainly to the towns advantage.

When the time comes. Now is not that time.

On the contrary it is easier to fake claim when people are dead. Cops can say dead people are inno etc.

3. Outing them doesn't lose as much as it would in a normal game because mafia already know who the powerful players are.

No they don't. Not really.

Oh cmon, unless people chose weirdly then the people at the top by definition have the best roles. Although it is subjective.

Your whole case is based around me wanting to know which player has which role, in a game with so much power we need to have as much information available as possible. This is my rationale and I don't see how saying this makes me appear the slightest bit scummy.

[MoB Deadly]

unvote my jokevote

Vote count

1. everywhere116 -
2. ghostly447
3. Some7hingCLEVER
4. pmchugh - nagerous, edocsil
5. edocsil -
6. nagerous - ghostly447
7. dazza2008
8. Ragian - dazza2008
9. Djfireside - MoB Deadly
10. spiesr
11. MoB Deadly -
12. soundman
13. alt1978 - freezie
14. shieldgenerator7 - soundman
15. freezie - Ragian, pmchugh, shieldgenerator7, everywhere116, Some7hingCLEVER (L-3)

Not voting: alt1978, Djfireside, spiesr

Unvotes are not necessary in this game, but I'll appreciate them.

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Extreme FOS clever for putting Freezie at L-3 without a prod being sent out, or giving time for him to respond. Only reason I do not have my vote on you right now is because I believe you do this kind of frequently. Maybe you did not realize its bad play when you did it. If no other good cases come out of today, my vote will be on you.

Everywhere vs pmc. Right now I do agree with everywhere, PMC's aggression is not sitting well with me, especially when he is advocating for top roles to claim. I am going to hold off my vote right now, because PMC is in the middle of the debate with everywhere right now, and he has made some good points, I would like to see how the argument progresses.

[freezie]

Why are people assuming the very top roles are at the top of the list? Personally, cop and doc were as far as 4 and 5. And then again, I should have placed them lower. While usefull, many other roles were more interesting to play than those. So cop and doc may be lower than we expect.

So..PCM...about the ninja and framer, and this is going to be a lot of WIFOM but worth mentionning, if mafia were half smart, they would have chosen the top roles for town to try and steal them from us. What good does a framer do if they have the cop? Mafia roleblocker is also very dangerous. Not to say mafia busdriver.

So these roles may not even be in the game, and your mass claim could totally sink us if that is the case. Personally, the odds aren't good enough to warrant it. Neither is a partial claim.

[shieldgenerator7]

I dislike the idea of massclaim because it exposes power roles, basically what everyone else is saying.

I really don't have much else to add... I'll take a jgordon backseat and wait for scumslips

-SG7 ( )

[Rodion]

Vote count

1. everywhere116
2. ghostly447
3. Some7hingCLEVER - freezie
4. pmchugh - nagerous, edocsil, everywhere116
5. edocsil
6. nagerous
7. dazza2008
8. Ragian
9. Djfireside
10. spiesr
11. MoB Deadly
12. soundman
13. alt1978
14. shieldgenerator7 - soundman
15. freezie

Not voting: ghostly447, Some7hingCLEVER, pmchugh, dazza2008, Ragian, Djfireside, spiesr, MoB Deadly, alt1978, shieldgenerator7

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

[pmchugh]

OK I reread the thread and I have a couple of conclusions.

1. I will concede defeat on partial mass claim. I think it was an interesting talking point and I would still do it if were up to me but it isn't without risk of hitting bulletproof/bomb/doc claims which we defo dont want to do.

2. Despite my arguments with everywhere I believe he is misinformed town member, for now at least.

3. In the nag vs ghostly case I understand both sides, but the way dazza was acting in it seems a little off. I tend to incline towards the ghostly side of the argument.

4. somethingclever is looking not so clever, but I am unsure if that is cause of scuminess or noobiness.

My current fos's then go to somethingclever and dazza.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

unvote my jokevote

Vote count

1. everywhere116 -
2. ghostly447
3. Some7hingCLEVER
4. pmchugh - nagerous, edocsil
5. edocsil -
6. nagerous - ghostly447
7. dazza2008
8. Ragian - dazza2008
9. Djfireside - MoB Deadly
10. spiesr
11. MoB Deadly -
12. soundman
13. alt1978 - freezie
14. shieldgenerator7 - soundman
15. freezie - Ragian, pmchugh, shieldgenerator7, everywhere116, Some7hingCLEVER (L-3)

Not voting: alt1978, Djfireside, spiesr

Unvotes are not necessary in this game, but I'll appreciate them.

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

[b][color=#FF0000]Extreme FOS[/b] clever for putting Freezie at L-3 without a prod being sent out, or giving time for him to respond. Only reason I do not have my vote on you right now is because I believe you do this kind of frequently. Maybe you did not realize its bad play when you did it. If no other good cases come out of today, my vote will be on you.[/color]

Everywhere vs pmc. Right now I do agree with everywhere, PMC's aggression is not sitting well with me, especially when he is advocating for top roles to claim. I am going to hold off my vote right now, because PMC is in the middle of the debate with everywhere right now, and he has made some good points, I would like to see how the argument progresses.

i have already said that i didnt realize it would put him at l-3
DOUBLE EXTREME FOS Mob for skimming

[Some7hingCLEVER]

EBWOP
so the whole puple thing didnt work like i wanted it to i was trying to highlight the whole paragraph

[MoB Deadly]

LOL!!!!!!

You FOS me for skimming, when you just skimmed the vote count to put him at L-3. Real nice. There's no excuse for putting someone at L-3 like that.

There were TWO votes RIGHT above your post on Page 9. You couldn't possibly miss that if you tried.

vote clever for trying to defend that.

[MoB Deadly]

Edit: It was on page 8, and there were 3 consecutive votes above yours, not just two.

[pmchugh]

i have already said that i didnt realize it would put him at l-3
DOUBLE EXTREME FOS Mob for skimming

I don't see why you guys think L-3 is significant it is not exactly danger territory. What is significant is that he has seemed very eager to "look" townie by just hopping on the latest wagon and then quickly unvoting purely due to the popularity of the options.

[dazza2008]

i have already said that i didnt realize it would put him at l-3
DOUBLE EXTREME FOS Mob for skimming

I don't see why you guys think L-3 is significant it is not exactly danger territory. What is significant is that he has seemed very eager to "look" townie by just hopping on the latest wagon and then quickly unvoting purely due to the popularity of the options.

I am not getting this either. What did L-3 matter? If he put him to L-1 or hammered by mistake I would understand all this fuss.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

The point was that I apparently jumped on and then got off so fast it was scummy when my reason for getting off was that I realized how stupid it was to pursue an inactive and being him all the way to l-3 thats why l-3 was a big deal and I was also looked scummy cause I was the first to get off the bandwagon
But tell me this? Would you have liked me to keep my vote on him till someone else hopped off? If everyone had that mind set he would be at l-3

[spiesr]

I don't see why you guys think L-3 is significant it is not exactly danger territory. What is significant is that he has seemed very eager to "look" townie by just hopping on the latest wagon and then quickly unvoting purely due to the popularity of the options.

Agreed.

I really don't have much else to add... I'll take a jgordon backseat and wait for scumslips

Or to try to avoid dropping any of your own?

[soundman]

i have already said that i didnt realize it would put him at l-3
DOUBLE EXTREME FOS Mob for skimming

I don't see why you guys think L-3 is significant it is not exactly danger territory. What is significant is that he has seemed very eager to "look" townie by just hopping on the latest wagon and then quickly unvoting purely due to the popularity of the options.

This. My vote's going to stay on SC7 for my previous case and now taking a "backseat". But Clever's latest post makes me FOS him.

[everywhere116]

i have already said that i didnt realize it would put him at l-3
DOUBLE EXTREME FOS Mob for skimming

I don't see why you guys think L-3 is significant it is not exactly danger territory. What is significant is that he has seemed very eager to "look" townie by just hopping on the latest wagon and then quickly unvoting purely due to the popularity of the options.

This. My vote's going to stay on SC7 for my previous case and now taking a "backseat". But Clever's latest post makes me FOS him.

And your case was:

Vote SG7 For no particular reason.