Get Rich from the Bank [5/12] Town Wins!

[Rodion]

Rereading your posts on the busdriver theory, you mentioned you thought it was the case because PCM never got to poison anyone. First of all, shouldn't you be interpreting the grammar of the scene in order to accurately conclude whether someone was poisoned or not? You say it is clear, but Catnip considered it ambiguous and Leitz only found it clear after changing the structure of the phrase, something that the mod has yet to confirm (if the way Leitz reworded is correct or if the mod's latest wording stands). I don't understand how you are willing to jump to a conclusion (that the poison did not happen) and then jump to another (that there is a busdriver involved in the scene) when other players are confused by the phrase. Perhaps you know something we all don't?

[Iron Butterfly]

Rereading your posts on the busdriver theory, you mentioned you thought it was the case because PCM never got to poison anyone. First of all, shouldn't you be interpreting the grammar of the scene in order to accurately conclude whether someone was poisoned or not? You say it is clear, but Catnip considered it ambiguous and Leitz only found it clear after changing the structure of the phrase, something that the mod has yet to confirm (if the way Leitz reworded is correct or if the mod's latest wording stands). I don't understand how you are willing to jump to a conclusion (that the poison did not happen) and then jump to another (that there is a busdriver involved in the scene) when other players are confused by the phrase. Perhaps you know something we all don't?

The attacker (PCM) managed to get close to his target but before he could give him his shot, he was taken down by another.

Humor me. Lets make beleive that I am right and the phrase is as I beleive.

The attacker (PCM )managed to get close to his target BEFORE he could give him his shot. (This tells me he was not able to poison his target.

He (PCM) was taken down by another.

Show me how a busdriver would not work with the statement, "four got together but only three survived".

[Rodion]

The attacker (PCM )managed to get close to his target BEFORE he could give him his shot. (This tells me he was not able to poison his target.

No, it only shows a syringe is a melee weapon as opposed to a ranged one. Before giving someone a syringe shot, you MUST get close. Just like you MUST get close to someone before you slash them with a sword. You don't have to get close in order to shoot with a sniper rifle.

So this before only meant that "he couldn't do it from far away".

If the word "but" was placed between "target" and "before" (just like I suggested and just like Leitz "edited" the mod's post), then, yes, your interpretation is correct. This is not how Skillfusniper wrote it, though, and this is why I still looked for an answer while you mistakenly concluded you knew everything and proceeded to introduce a busdriver where there is no evidence of one.

Understand it now?

[Rodion]

Before a nurse gives you a vaccine shot, she has to get close to you. She can't just throw the syringe from 10 feet away and hope she hits a vein.

[Iron Butterfly]

The attacker (PCM )managed to get close to his target BEFORE he could give him his shot. (This tells me he was not able to poison his target.

No, it only shows a syringe is a melee weapon as opposed to a ranged one. Before giving someone a syringe shot, you MUST get close. Just like you MUST get close to someone before you slash them with a sword. You don't have to get close in order to shoot with a sniper rifle.

So this before only meant that "he couldn't do it from far away".

If the word "but" was placed between "target" and "before" (just like I suggested and just like Leitz "edited" the mod's post), then, yes, your interpretation is correct. This is not how Skillfusniper wrote it, though, and this is why I still looked for an answer while you mistakenly concluded you knew everything and proceeded to introduce a busdriver where there is no evidence of one.

Understand it now?

I never claimed I knew everything. LOL...Was it Freud who said sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I prefer to keep it simple. Your just trying to put as much meaningless info as possible on the table to confuse the new players. Melee versus Ranged? LOL maybe they were ninjas who used poison pogo sticks.

For someone who has reminded us twice how bad their English is your doing surprisingly well

[Rodion]

I never claimed to have poor english.
I said it isn't my mother language (as you can easily verified by clicking on my profile and checking the Brazil flag).
I also said I got confused with how the mod wrote the scene.
I then humbly asked for people that were born in America to help me interpret something I could not and still can't.

You say I'm trying to vomit information in order to confuse newwer players. I'm not. I kept my request as simple as possible. "Help me understand the night scene, is it option "a", "b" or "c"?

You are the one that wanted to know why I was curious and I told you what crossed my mind. Could that end up confusing lesser intelectually gifted people? Perhaps, but what did you want me to do? Deny your request and NOT explain my thoughts? Would that have made me look more town to you?

[Iron Butterfly]

The reason the issue of weather the poison was able to be applied is that it enables the mafia players to point a finger at those Town who need claim their role. When I asked Rodion to explain why it is important I already knew the answer. I just wanted to have it verified. He explained what the mafia strategy would be if poison where in play, which is why It is so important for town to be convinced that PCM not only got his poison off but that he was also able to target mafia. Rodions first argument states that PCM targeted Mafia.

A fake poisoned mafia player gives ammunition to the live mafia to challange the validity of Town players if they have a need to claim.

Granted Sniper could have used better wording in describing the night scene but its not like we have need of a Roseta Stone to decipher the dead sea scrolls.

It is however very important for Mafia to have poison in play so they can use it as ammo against town, which is why my theory of a bus driver involved in the game takes that ammo away. They wont aknowledge it as even a possibility.

[Rodion]

The way you accuse me, it seems like the idea of PCM targeting mafia for the poison kill was an invention of my own. Check these quotes:

i think the poisoner poisoned someone, possibly mafia, and another member, most likely mafia, killed him.

Expanding on what others have said therefore pcm targeted scum but didn't get them so they won't die tomorrow

Isn't it a possibility that PCM attacked one of the mafia, but mafia's night lynch goes first over other night lynches?

I was only the 4th people to declare I thought PCM's target was mafia.

Besides, I still don't understand your approach to this at all. If you are town and you think PCM did not poison anyone and you think my thoughts of playing D2 cautiously in case we establish that we have a poisoned mafia amongst us are bad for town, what would you do?

a) give the brazilian guy a grammar lesson and ensure him that there is no poisoned mafia out there, consequently obliterating all the thoughts that you think might harm town

b) ask the mod to edit his post until is is clear, so the guy will be ensured that there is no poisoned mafia out there, consequently obliterating all the thoughts that you think might harm town

c) make up a case against the guy saying that his thoughts (which were only laid out because you explicitly asked) are an ill-intentioned form of confusing all the new players and guaranteeing a mafia win. Also say that we should adopt the busdriver theory because it won't generate fear, even though the busdriver theory does not make sense. That is wishful thinking, a logical fallacy in which you assume something to be true because the existence of this very something would be good. The busdriver theory can't be accepted on the grounds that "it would be so nice if it were correct!", it has to be accepted or refused on the grounds of its likelihood to be correct.

I'll show you why your busdriver theory is flawed. A busdriver swaps two people.

If a scene has 2 people, "A and B", and the busdriver swaps one of them (for instance, "B" with "Z"), that scene will still have two people, the only difference is that the people will be "A and Z" instead of "A and B".
Same applies for a scene with 3, 4 or even more people.

Your theory, if I understood it correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), suggests that a scene that should only have 2 people (PCM and the killer), suddenly had 4 because of the busdriver, meaning that instead of "swaping" people he simply "added". You also mentioned that you believed the poison did not go off because players that are busdriven get to make their actions earlier than they would if they had not been swapped (something I've never heard of), and this is why the killer got to kill PCM before PCM got to poison whomever.

I might be wrong in interpreting your theory because it doesn't make sense in my head. Let me know if I'm wrong and clarify what you meant, but, quite frankly, I find it hard to believe you'll get me to see eye to eye with you on that.

[Rodion]

I think it is important that we clearly understand what is being said here, unless it is supposed to be ambiguous? Could we have this sentence entirely rewritten, perhaps even broken up into several sentences, by the moderator?

And this is Catnip picking route "b", which makes me believe she is town since she is trying to adress the issue instead of throwing baseless accusations around.

[Sundog308]

Hmm, so Rodion and IB going back and forth makes for interesting, and convoluted reading. Without going back and re-quoting all of the little pieces of each of your arguments, I think you are both acting scummy, here is why.

At this point I think we should be able to agree that the poisoner did NOT manage to poison his victim. Rodion, your complaint about English not being your mother tongue seems weak to me. I understand that others have been confused as well, but IB is right, you do write pretty eloquently. I personally don't think it's that confusing of a sentence because I'm in a clan with Skill.... he just doesn't write that well. Seems to me we should be less worried about the sentence structure of the events, and more worried about it's outcome. I see several of you guys referencing a specific term: flavor. I'm guessing that this refers to the way a story or night kill is worded giving clues to who or what happened. In this case, it's just bad grammar. So one strike against Rodion for trying to cloud the issue.

IB, your theory of a bus driver makes sense, but I'm a little confused on why it's so important to you. Whether a bus driver is involved or not, PCM (roleblocker) is still dead, and his partner has committed suicide. I'm comfortable with assuming that the suicide victim was not part of the original four (I think that was ROdion's argument though, not yours). That leaves PCM, his victim, PCM's killer and the remaining mystery character. What if the remaining character was simply a watcher, or investigator? Seems to me like there are a lot of possibilities for the extra character without it being required that a bus driver being involved. While I still agree that a bus driver is a possible explanation, it just seems like you are sticking doggedly to this point. You and Rodion have gone sideways arguing about the melee vs ranged weapons, whether or not someone got poisoned, and various roles that may or may not appear in a mod's first mafia game. You are both muddling the issue, and it wouldn't surprise me if your are both mafia! That gives you one strike for clouding the issue, and one strike for being the first to suggest an unnecessary role.

Other's thoughts?

[skillfusniper33]

The attacker managed to get close to his target before he could give him his shot, but he was taken down by another.

Fixed the simple mistake that I over looked in making managed, manager... silly typos

Just to let everyone know, all kill orders are due to order of how they come in (basically which ever one comes in first has first priority no matter who is killing who):
If
Player A wants to kill Player B
Player B wants to kill Player C

Which ever comes in first will happen first
So for this case if Player B gets his night action in first Player C would be poisoned and then Player B would be be killed afterwards.
This could be true or not, I won't bluntly say anything to clarify if it got off or not.


Vote Count:
Rodion (1) - IB

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

[Iron Butterfly]

LOL...that changes everything. We have no idea whos actions processed first, which means even if there was a busdriver he may or may not have beaten the kill shot with his passsengers.

Poison IS an issue. The reasons why have already been discussed. I have my opinion on what Sniper meant with his evening scene. it will be interesting to see how others interpret it.

Town better be at their keyboard the moment night falls with their respective night actions.

[Leitz]

t will affect night actions (as they will be done asap) from now on, but I don't believe it changes much to N1. The statement of sniper clearly says that BEFORE PCM could give a shot he was killed. So nobody got poisoned, hence mafia sent in their kill earlier than PCM but that does not help us any further. I say we just leave N1 and its kills behind us and start looking for some scum.

Unlike sundog, I don't believe Rodion & Iron Butterfly are both scum. Maybe only the one, and then I would say Rodion over Iron Butterfly.

[catnipdreams]

Well, I am still not sure what happened.

Here is what I think so far, about the four people:

1) A mafia killer was present, and made a kill. We don't know if the original kill target was the poisoner, or if something caused the poisoner to be killed instead of the original kill target. The mafia killer is still alive at this point in time, but perhaps was poisoned.

2) The poisoner was present, and was killed by the mafia.

3) The poisoner's victim was present. We still don't know if the poison was delivered or not. If the poisoner did deliver the poison, then he could have poisoned himself, and we will not know, because he was killed before the poison could take effect. The poisoner could have poisoned his lover, and because she also died, we will not know. Or, someone will die of poison.

4) A fourth person was present. Why was the fourth person there? Was this someone performing a night action? Did the night action yield any results?

I don't know where to go with this in terms of a lynch. However, i do have some thoughts about a lynch, and will post them separately.

[catnipdreams]

I just reread a bunch of posts... If I ever play another mafia game, I will have some system in place for taking notes from the very beginning!

I am now moderately suspicious of Iron Butterfly. And somewhat suspicious of Sundog. I didn't think that Rodion's request for clarification of the night scene was unreasonable in any way. The scene is STILL confusing to me, due to the wording. It CAN be interpreted several ways, and while some folks have said they think it means this, or it means that, it is only speculation, not fact, because the sentence IS ambiguous. Keep in mind that Rodion says on his CC profile that he is a lawyer irl. Lawyers are detail oriented, and look for the tiniest inconsistencies. I think this is exactly what Rodion did, and I don't find his posts confusing at all.

Your just trying to put as much meaningless info as possible on the table to confuse the new players. Melee versus Ranged? LOL maybe they were ninjas who used poison pogo sticks.

For someone who has reminded us twice how bad their English is your doing surprisingly well

This statement does not jibe with my reading of Rodion's posts. I think iron butterfly is trying to get us to lynch Rodion by presenting an exaggerated and distorted view of Rodion's posts.

[zimmah]

The reason the issue of weather the poison was able to be applied is that it enables the mafia players to point a finger at those Town who need claim their role. When I asked Rodion to explain why it is important I already knew the answer. I just wanted to have it verified. He explained what the mafia strategy would be if poison where in play, which is why It is so important for town to be convinced that PCM not only got his poison off but that he was also able to target mafia. Rodions first argument states that PCM targeted Mafia.

A fake poisoned mafia player gives ammunition to the live mafia to challange the validity of Town players if they have a need to claim.

Granted Sniper could have used better wording in describing the night scene but its not like we have need of a Roseta Stone to decipher the dead sea scrolls.

It is however very important for Mafia to have poison in play so they can use it as ammo against town, which is why my theory of a bus driver involved in the game takes that ammo away. They wont aknowledge it as even a possibility.

why is this game filled with stubborn a**holes?

i have nothing to do with rodion, i'm just telling you you should take of your tunnelvision glasses and accept that you may be wrong. i'm not even saying rodion is not mafia, he may very well be, but the reason you accuse him and the way you stick to your opinion makes me much more suspicious about you.

if you know somethng that we don't then better spit out your information. until then vote IB

[zimmah]

Hmm, so Rodion and IB going back and forth makes for interesting, and convoluted reading. Without going back and re-quoting all of the little pieces of each of your arguments, I think you are both acting scummy, here is why.

At this point I think we should be able to agree that the poisoner did NOT manage to poison his victim. Rodion, your complaint about English not being your mother tongue seems weak to me. I understand that others have been confused as well, but IB is right, you do write pretty eloquently. I personally don't think it's that confusing of a sentence because I'm in a clan with Skill.... he just doesn't write that well. Seems to me we should be less worried about the sentence structure of the events, and more worried about it's outcome. I see several of you guys referencing a specific term: flavor. I'm guessing that this refers to the way a story or night kill is worded giving clues to who or what happened. In this case, it's just bad grammar. So one strike against Rodion for trying to cloud the issue.

IB, your theory of a bus driver makes sense, but I'm a little confused on why it's so important to you. Whether a bus driver is involved or not, PCM (roleblocker) is still dead, and his partner has committed suicide. I'm comfortable with assuming that the suicide victim was not part of the original four (I think that was ROdion's argument though, not yours). That leaves PCM, his victim, PCM's killer and the remaining mystery character. What if the remaining character was simply a watcher, or investigator? Seems to me like there are a lot of possibilities for the extra character without it being required that a bus driver being involved. While I still agree that a bus driver is a possible explanation, it just seems like you are sticking doggedly to this point. You and Rodion have gone sideways arguing about the melee vs ranged weapons, whether or not someone got poisoned, and various roles that may or may not appear in a mod's first mafia game. You are both muddling the issue, and it wouldn't surprise me if your are both mafia! That gives you one strike for clouding the issue, and one strike for being the first to suggest an unnecessary role.

Other's thoughts?

you're wrong, because the mod uses him and he in the sentence multiple times it becomes very unclear if the he/him means the attacker or the target. therefore, it's impossible to know for sure if the target was poisoned or not, unless the complete sentence gets rewritten without the use of too many him and he's.

[Rodion]

The statement of sniper clearly says that BEFORE PCM could give a shot he was killed.

Not really. Remember that in order to clearly conclude that you had to change the statement by placing the word "but" in a different place. And now the mod has once again posted and he claimed that his original "but" stands, not your version. The difference of where the "but" stands should change the importance of the "before". I see 2 possibilities of rewriting the phrases.

1 - "The poisoner got close to his victim so he could apply the shot. However, before he could poison his victim, he was shot by another person" -> that means nobody was poisoned
2 - "The poisoner got close to his victim before he could apply the shot (because you have to get close in order to use a syringe). But the poisoner was screwed, by the way, as he was shot by another person" -> was he shot before or after applying the shot? It isn't clear.

Anyway, I think Sundog said we needed to focus less on the grammar structure and more on the outcome of the scene. The problem is that we can't really understand the outcome of the scene due to the grammar structure of the phrase. I had no intention of clouding any issue, I was just trying to understand something that seemed confuse and that would yield consequences in our way of approaching this day 2. It all spiraled out of control when IB made the mess he did and now I can see why someone would say things were cloudened.

LOL...that changes everything. We have no idea whos actions processed first, which means even if there was a busdriver he may or may not have beaten the kill shot with his passsengers.

Evidence of skimming. Sniper said that "kills" resolve on a first-come, first-served basis. He did not mention other powers and he shouldn't, because by default some powers take precedence over others. The most 2 notorious cases of powers that happen before others are roleblocker and busdriver. If there is a busdriver swapping people out there, he did swap before the kills were processed.

Poison IS an issue.

How do you suggest we handle this issue?

Town better be at their keyboard the moment night falls with their respective night actions.

I find it suspicious that you are trying to spread chaos where there isn't.

If there is a town killer (vigilante or a JOAT, for instance) that wants to use their kill, then yes, they should submit it as soon as possible.
For any other town roles, they should take their time to think properly, reread the thread and make non-rash and accurate conclusions regarding who they should target with their powers.

As far as scumhunting goes, I'm afraid Eagle's lynch didn't leave us with a lot of info since he was basically asking to be killed. I'm going to look for D2 interactions in order to determine my vote, but first I'd like to see what Iron has to say.

[Iron Butterfly]

The attacker manager to get close to his target before he could give him his shot, but he was taken down by another.

Can anyone that speaks english as a mother language please interpret this to me?

Options are:

a) poisoner undoubtedly got to poison his target
b) poisoner undoubtedly did not get to poison his target
c) it's not clear whether someone was poisoned or not

This is the post that confirmed my belief that Rodion is mafia. Rodion has a reputation as a player. He is a lawyer who is skillfull at making the small look big and the big look small.

He already had his terminolgy defined. He already had his questions framed perfectly to elicit debate on what Snaiper may or may not have meant.

Why the need to remind us that English is not his first language or that he needs somthing interpreted that he has already written and defined perfectly? What exactly does he need interpreted in English? Nothing. Its a scam to get unwitting folks to engage in his poison debate.

Why is the poison argument so important for Rodion just as it has been for me? That has already been explained.

So what does Iron Butterfly have to say? I beleive Rodion is Mafia. My arguments have already been stated.

[Rodion]

Enough is enough, man. You have someone from the USA saying she is confused about what the scene meant (Catnip) and yet you still think I'm not entitled to trying to understand something and asking other people for help. Why keep pushing for this argument when it has been shown that it is bullshit?

To top all your fail logic, now you are outright ignoring things you have to adress in order to keep forcing a case that is ridiculous.

Vote Iron Butterfly.

How about you reread my posts and answer them instead of saying things that don't make sense?

[Rodion]

EBWOP:

Vote Iron Butterfly.

[Leitz]

I'm not convinced of neither Rodion nor Iron Butterfly. The discussion seems like something which got out of hand due to the fact that the night scene wasn't properly (unless snipers idea was to create this fuzz) formulated. I'm still of the believe Rodion is a bit more suspicious because he started this all, but he brought up some good arguments against Iron Butterfly so I'm going to wait casting my vote until there's a stronger case.

@ Sniper: could you prod maximumbandit, he hasn't posted anything yet in D2 I believe..

[Iron Butterfly]

Enough is enough, man. You have someone from the USA saying she is confused about what the scene meant (Catnip) and yet you still think I'm not entitled to trying to understand something and asking other people for help. Why keep pushing for this argument when it has been shown that it is bullshit?

To top all your fail logic, now you are outright ignoring things you have to adress in order to keep forcing a case that is ridiculous.

Vote Iron Butterfly.

How about you reread my posts and answer them instead of saying things that don't make sense?

So what exactly did you need interpreted for you as you had it all spelled out for us?

Nice OMGUS vote.

[Iron Butterfly]

This is a prime example of why Rodion is so so dangerous. Here is his last paragraph. this is how he plays and where his skill as a lawyer shines.

"I find it suspicious that you are trying to spread chaos where there isn't."
This is a game. I am not spreading chaos. Choas implies I am trying to randomly cause mayhem with the town where there should be none. There is no chaos. What there is is me bringing my case that you sir are Mafia.

If there is a town killer (vigilante or a JOAT, for instance) that wants to use their kill, then yes, they should submit it as soon as possible.
For any other town roles, they should take their time to think properly, reread the thread and make non-rash and accurate conclusions regarding who they should target with their powers.
Once again you attribute meaning to my statement, which is completely false. You imply that I am telling folks to take their night actions with out thinkingn while you on the otherhand are offering the sage wisom to think before you act. You are the wise sage I am the sower of chaos.

As far as scumhunting goes, I'm afraid Eagle's lynch didn't leave us with a lot of info since he was basically asking to be killed. I'm going to look for D2 interactions in order to determine my vote, but first I'd like to see what Iron has to say.

Once again you distract. You try and take the focus off your self and place it someplace else. We all know what eagle was. He was completely useless. Pointing out the obvious makes it seem like you have the best interests of town. Hey why dont you look at day 2 info to see if anything stands out...oh wait..you and i have been going back and forth lol.

I am going to make this clear as can be for Town. This day is important to lynch Mafia. If Town does not it will not be the end of the world but it will make it harder for town to win. I am not scared to put my neck on the line by bringing a case against Rodion

Mafia knows who each other are and so can choose several avenues of attack to downplay any acussers and help sway the votes of the unknowing town. This is Day 2. The game could be over by day threes end. My vote will stand on Rodion unless some earth shattering revelation presents itself.

[skillfusniper33]

Prod sent out to maximumbandit.

Vote Count
Rodion (1) - Iron Butterfly
Iron Butterfly (2) - zimmah, Rodion

With 9 alive it takes 5 for a lynch