Get Rich from the Bank [5/12] Town Wins!

[Sundog308]

Catnip, I think you are right about the Poisoner, he didn't manage to poison his target before being killed himself. I am also curious as to whether the killer knew about the poisoner.

I've had the time to go back and skim through a couple finished games and I hadn't seen the 'lover duo' before where one dying automatically suicides the other, but I kinda like it in a demented sort of way. Romeon and Julietish. My guess would be that the four players involved in the scene includes the suicider.

So we have:
1) Poisoner, about to make a hit on unknown individual. (Pancakemix)
2) Victim of Poisoner, who did not get poisoned in any way... but maybe he picked up one of the leftover syringes? (I doubt it though. Mob makes a good point)
3) Killer, who killed the poisoner before the poisoner finished his action
and lastly,
4) Suicidal Lover, who kills herself after discovering her lover's dead body. (Deuceswild222)

Is it at all possible (this is directed at some of the more experienced Mafia players in this game) that the mafia was blocked tonight (I know we already lost one roleblocker, could there be two in a game this size?) and the individual who killed the poisoner is a watcher, or cop or something? I guess I'm wondering if there is a 'protecter' role, who, when seeing that Pancakemix was about to poison someone, was able to step in and kill Pancakemix instead. If there isn't a second roleblocker, than the first guess isn't even possible. And for the second theory, it would require a really good guess on that person's part to "watch" Pancakemix.

[Iron Butterfly]

The struggle started just after everyone had began to relax for the night. With 4 people getting together and only 3 surviving.

The attacker manager to get close to his target before he could give him his shot, he was taken down by another.

Pancakemix “Husband Eric” 3rd Party Poisoner, Lover has been killed.

Durring the early phases just as everyone was getting together to begin day 2 they were wondering where PCM was so they begin to search and dueceswild finds her Husband, and then takes most of the syringes in his pockets and stabs them into her neck.

Dueceswild222 “Wife Ginger” Town Survivor, lover has committed suicide

Day 2 Begin

Deuce seems to be a casualty on the night action not part of. So I would not include him in the 3 of 4 durviving As part of the group as a whole.

PCM went to attack. I read it that he did not get his poison off unless it is poor grammar on the mods part. Someone else made an attack on PCM so that rules out paranoid gun owner or roles that counter back on an attacker.

Someone was bus driven, which would involve another unkown player. Its my theory that PCM was not attacked directly but as a side effect of being bus driven. The attack on PCM took precedence over his kill and I beleive bus driven players take priorty night action wise. So you would have the Busdriver, PCM, unkown player X, unkown killer.

That could be the 4 gets together 3 live scenario.

[catnipdreams]

Would pancakemix have consulted with the mafia folks before attempting his kill? Was his attempted kill supposed to be "the kill" for the night? Is there always a scum kill every night?

It would be quite a coincidence, but perhaps pancakemix was acting independently, chose his target on his own, got killed through some protective means, and the mafia just happened to choose pancakemix as their target? Otherwise, what happened to the mafia kill? Why would the mafia not kill a town person every chance they could get?

Would a 3rd party player make himself known to the mafia, aligning with them? Would a 3rd party player be told who the mafia were? Would the mafia be told who the 3rd party player is? Maybe both the mafia and any interested 3rd party players are allowed to communicate at night if they both choose some kind of "opt in" option?

[MoB Deadly]

Would pancakemix have consulted with the mafia folks before attempting his kill? Was his attempted kill supposed to be "the kill" for the night? Is there always a scum kill every night?

It would be quite a coincidence, but perhaps pancakemix was acting independently, chose his target on his own, got killed through some protective means, and the mafia just happened to choose pancakemix as their target? Otherwise, what happened to the mafia kill? Why would the mafia not kill a town person every chance they could get?

Would a 3rd party player make himself known to the mafia, aligning with them? Would a 3rd party player be told who the mafia were? Would the mafia be told who the 3rd party player is? Maybe both the mafia and any interested 3rd party players are allowed to communicate at night if they both choose some kind of "opt in" option?

Mafia Killed PCM the third party guy. Third party is independent of all, he kills town and mafia without discretion, normal goal is to survive to the end.

Normally mafia cannot communicate with third-party

[Rodion]

If the "lover" wife was one of the 4, she would have suicided right away, not early on during the "earlier phases".

The second line seems weird to me, it looks like one of those times were a missing word or punctuation might completely change the meaning of the phrase. Was there supposed to be a "but" before the word "before"? Perhaps it is the fact that english is not my mother language, but to me it is not clear whether the poisoner's target was infected or not. If it is in fact poor grammar like Iron suggested, can we get an edit so that the scene is clearer, Sniper?

I see the newer players have loads of questions. I can answer them tomorrow if someone compiles a list of the questions that have to be answered.

[Rodion]

EBWOP

If the "lover" wife was one of the 4, she would have suicided right away, not later on during the "earlier phases".

The second line seems weird to me, it looks like one of those times were a missing word or punctuation might completely change the meaning of the phrase. Was there supposed to be a "but" before the word "before"? Perhaps it is the fact that english is not my mother language, but to me it is not clear whether the poisoner's target was infected or not. If it is in fact poor grammar like Iron suggested, can we get an edit so that the scene is clearer, Sniper?

I see the newer players have loads of questions. I can answer them tomorrow if someone compiles a list of the questions that have to be answered.

[Iron Butterfly]

Would pancakemix have consulted with the mafia folks before attempting his kill? Was his attempted kill supposed to be "the kill" for the night? Is there always a scum kill every night?

It would be quite a coincidence, but perhaps pancakemix was acting independently, chose his target on his own, got killed through some protective means, and the mafia just happened to choose pancakemix as their target? Otherwise, what happened to the mafia kill? Why would the mafia not kill a town person every chance they could get?

Would a 3rd party player make himself known to the mafia, aligning with them? Would a 3rd party player be told who the mafia were? Would the mafia be told who the 3rd party player is? Maybe both the mafia and any interested 3rd party players are allowed to communicate at night if they both choose some kind of "opt in" option?

PCM is third party meaning he had no affiliation with Mafia. Deuce was labled as town but he was bad for town as he did not have the best interest of town.

Understand this. Mafia knows who are in their group. They do not know who anyone is other then they are not fellow mafia. I would think that as lovers their fate and win condition went hand in hand so they knew each other and perhaps got to commumicate.

I suspect Mafia went for the kill and targeted someone other then PCM, who was switched with someone else do to a busfriver.

I dont beleive it was anything more then blind luck that the deaths occured as they did. The bus friver could just as easily have picked someone else and the poisoner/surviver would still be alive, someone would die from poison and a town power role would perhaps be dead.

All in all avery good night for Town due to the busdriver. I am assuming it was a busdriver but I cant think of any other scenario at the moment. The key for me is PCM could not get his kill action off, which tells me someones night action took precedence.

The most important thing is this. We are down to 9. We need to have a strong case for lyching and should not rush into anything. By my count I am thinking that Town is up 6 to 3 or 7-2

[skillfusniper33]

There should be a but in that sentence, I am sorry must have got going quickly.

The struggle started just after everyone had began to relax for the night. With 4 people getting together and only 3 surviving.

The attacker manager to get close to his target before he could give him his shot, but he was taken down by another.

Pancakemix “Husband Eric” 3rd Party Poisoner, Lover has been killed.

Durring the early phases just as everyone was getting together to begin day 2 they were wondering where PCM was so they begin to search and dueceswild finds her Husband, and then takes most of the syringes in his pockets and stabs them into her neck.

Dueceswild222 “Wife Ginger” Town Survivor, lover has committed suicide

Day 2 Begin

Sorry about that guys, hopefully that clears some things up

[jonty125]

Iron, why do u think there is a busdriver? If mafia had a 3 player party (quite likely in a 12 player game), they would get together to discuss who they'd want to kill - and the if the poisoner was to "move in" on his target he would make the 4th person. Expanding on what others have said therefore pcm targeted scum but didn't get them so they won't die tomorrow

[Leitz]

Isn't it a possibility that PCM attacked one of the mafia, but mafia's night lynch goes first over other night lynches? I understand that the busdriver could've played a role in this, but we aren't certain a busdriver is in this game. It is snipers first time as mod, and new modders are recommended to begin with 'easy' set-ups mostly.

I agree with Iron Butterfly that this was a good night for town, although we lost the roleblocker on D1 I believe eagleblade wouldn't have been of any use the way he played!

I'll read over D1 again later today to find some scummy moves!

[jonty125]

[quote="Leitz"]Isn't it a possibility that PCM attacked one of the mafia, but mafia's night lynch goes first over other night lynches? I understand that the busdriver could've played a role in this, but we aren't certain a busdriver is in this game. It is snipers first time as mod, and new modders are recommended to begin with 'easy' set-ups mostly.

I agree with Iron Butterfly that this was a good night for town, although we lost the roleblocker on D1 I believe eagleblade wouldn't have been of any use the way he played!

I'll read over D1 again later today to find some scummy moves![/quote]

Pretty sure a couple of us have said this

[jonty125]

Isn't it a possibility that PCM attacked one of the mafia, but mafia's night lynch goes first over other night lynches? I understand that the busdriver could've played a role in this, but we aren't certain a busdriver is in this game. It is snipers first time as mod, and new modders are recommended to begin with 'easy' set-ups mostly.

I agree with Iron Butterfly that this was a good night for town, although we lost the roleblocker on D1 I believe eagleblade wouldn't have been of any use the way he played!

I'll read over D1 again later today to find some scummy moves!

Pretty sure a couple of us have said this

Fixed Quotation

[Leitz]

Double read and indeed jonty, I must have forgotten because on this last page it's mostly about the busdriver, my bad!

[Iron Butterfly]

Iron, why do u think there is a busdriver? If mafia had a 3 player party (quite likely in a 12 player game), they would get together to discuss who they'd want to kill - and the if the poisoner was to "move in" on his target he would make the 4th person. Expanding on what others have said therefore pcm targeted scum but didn't get them so they won't die tomorrow

OK One last time. 4 getting together implies 4 people got together. When mafia makes the nigjt kill attempt only one will do it.
A bus driver adds the two extra players needed for 4 people to be involved in the Night action resolution. Mafia killer/PCM/busdriver/ other player swirched.

Here is a traditionl list of night action resolutions. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... Resolution

Busdrivers are at the top of the list as far as whos night actions go first. Killing powers are towards the bottom of the list.

To me that is the best scenario where the math adds up. One can interpret what 4 got together means but I choose to look at it as "time of night action"

With all that said...I dont think we should get destracted on figuring out what happened. In my opinion is that the first night kills are more about luck then anything else. Mafia targeted somebody and hoped for the best. Town use their Night Actions and hope for the best.

As I said earlier we need to figure out who is scum and make a good case to lynch. We cant afford to lynch town at this point. The next two days may decide this game as we get a lymch and night, which means we could lose 2 more town if we dont play right. Do the math.

[zimmah]

The struggle started just after everyone had began to relax for the night. With 4 people getting together and only 3 surviving.

The attacker manager to get close to his target before he could give him his shot, he was taken down by another.

Pancakemix “Husband Eric” 3rd Party Poisoner, Lover has been killed.

Durring the early phases just as everyone was getting together to begin day 2 they were wondering where PCM was so they begin to search and dueceswild finds her Husband, and then takes most of the syringes in his pockets and stabs them into her neck.

Dueceswild222 “Wife Ginger” Town Survivor, lover has committed suicide

Day 2 Begin

Deuce seems to be a casualty on the night action not part of. So I would not include him in the 3 of 4 durviving As part of the group as a whole.

PCM went to attack. I read it that he did not get his poison off unless it is poor grammar on the mods part. Someone else made an attack on PCM so that rules out paranoid gun owner or roles that counter back on an attacker.

Someone was bus driven, which would involve another unkown player. Its my theory that PCM was not attacked directly but as a side effect of being bus driven. The attack on PCM took precedence over his kill and I beleive bus driven players take priorty night action wise. So you would have the Busdriver, PCM, unkown player X, unkown killer.

That could be the 4 gets together 3 live scenario.

what part of the night scene flavor makes you think someone was bus driven? as i don't see it.

[Rodion]

The attacker manager to get close to his target before he could give him his shot, but he was taken down by another.

Can anyone that speaks english as a mother language please interpret this to me?

Options are:

a) poisoner undoubtedly got to poison his target
b) poisoner undoubtedly did not get to poison his target
c) it's not clear whether someone was poisoned or not

[Leitz]

I think the "manager" should be "managed" & the but is placed wrong:

The attacker managed to get close to his target but before he could give him his shot, he was taken down by another.

The way I see it, it is b) poisoner undoubtedly did not get to poison his target

[Iron Butterfly]

The attacker manager to get close to his target before he could give him his shot, but he was taken down by another.

Can anyone that speaks english as a mother language please interpret this to me?

Options are:

a) poisoner undoubtedly got to poison his target
b) poisoner undoubtedly did not get to poison his target
c) it's not clear whether someone was poisoned or not

In my past game with you were eloquent in your speech and argument. You have a reputation as an astute and masterful player. You site charts, statistics, probobilities to argue your points. You have single handidly won games with your logic and powers of persuasion. In English.

Yet this sentence baffles you? Its very clear and been stated several times.

Sniper corrected it and made clear what was meant. *grin* though he forgot the d at the end of managed.

Why is this important to you? I have an idea why you are still making an issue of it. If like to hear it from you.

[catnipdreams]

skillfusniper33 wrote:The attacker manager to get close to his target before he could give him his shot, but he was taken down by another.



Can anyone that speaks english as a mother language please interpret this to me?

I am a native English speaker, and I can't figure this sentence out at all. The first use of "his" references "The attacker", so it is "The attacker managed to get close to the attacker's target before...", but then we have "he", "him", "his", "he", all ambiguous as to which person they are referencing.

I think it is important that we clearly understand what is being said here, unless it is supposed to be ambiguous? Could we have this sentence entirely rewritten, perhaps even broken up into several sentences, by the moderator?

@Rodion: your English is better than many native English speakers' English, if you ever wondered about that!

I was just about to post this when Iron Butterfly posted... I agreed totally with Rodion that the sentence is ambiguous, but I'm also curious about:

Why is this important to you? I have an idea why you are still making an issue of it. If like to hear it from you.

[Rodion]

Thanks for the compliments, but I honestly can't tell what happened in the scenes the way it is written.

Why is this important to you? I have an idea why you are still making an issue of it. If like to hear it from you.

I'm not making "an issue" of anything. I just want to fully understand the available data to understand the game better.

According to my suspicions (and some people have already mentioned that in their own speculations) and unless Iron Butterfly shockingly claims busdriver saying he swapped PCM with someone else, the 4 people in the scene are the poisoner and 3 mafia members (a 3-man mafia seems the proper ammount for a 12-player game). That means the poisoner's target was mafia. I don't know if he is supposed to get a message from the mod stating that he was poisoned, but if he is. he already knows he is scheduled to die. That kind of freedom (since he has nothing to lose) can (and should) be used to make as much damage as possible to town before his last breath. That includes, for instance, fakeclaiming town JOAT with a guilty result on someone. He would most assuredly force a mislynch before he got to die and he would not be counterclaimed by the cop because he chose to claim JOAT (a role that may or may not exist). He could also claim doctor to be counterclaimed and expose the town doctor for an almost assured N2 kill. These are just examples, but the possibilities are endless.

The key thing is that, if we establish that mafia has a poisoned member in their ranks, today will be an unique mafia day in that there is someone that can lie to reap benefits for mafia without having to pay the consequences (since he's dying anyway), so everyone's words should be treated with a grain of salt until D3 starts. How to approach this should vary case by case, but for now I would not suggest the cop or the doctor to counterclaim others if they realize someone is lying (better to wait a day and see the liar die of poison than expose your important power role).

So, Iron, that's it in a nutshell. Care to share the idea on why you thought I could be making an issue of it but wanted to hear from me first?

[Iron Butterfly]

Thanks for the compliments, but I honestly can't tell what happened in the scenes the way it is written.

Why is this important to you? I have an idea why you are still making an issue of it. If like to hear it from you.

I'm not making "an issue" of anything. I just want to fully understand the available data to understand the game better.

According to my suspicions (and some people have already mentioned that in their own speculations) and unless Iron Butterfly shockingly claims busdriver saying he swapped PCM with someone else, the 4 people in the scene are the poisoner and 3 mafia members (a 3-man mafia seems the proper ammount for a 12-player game).

Mafia "meet" at night. They do not all attack target together in this case PCM.

That means the poisoner's target was mafia.
There is no way PCM would know who Mafia was. Third parties do not have the advantage of knowing who is who. You know that.

I don't know if he is supposed to get a message from the mod stating that he was poisoned, but if he is. he already knows he is scheduled to die. That kind of freedom (since he has nothing to lose) can (and should) be used to make as much damage as possible to town before his last breath.
Pure speculation PLUS the poisoner does is not poisoned he poisons

That includes, for instance, fakeclaiming town JOAT with a guilty result on someone. He would most assuredly force a mislynch before he got to die and he would not be counterclaimed by the cop because he chose to claim JOAT (a role that may or may not exist). He could also claim doctor to be counterclaimed and expose the town doctor for an almost assured N2 kill. These are just examples, but the possibilities are endless.
Now your just talking to confuse the new folks. Once again wild speculation with no basis in fact.

The key thing is that, if we establish that mafia has a poisoned member in their ranks, today will be an unique mafia day in that there is someone that can lie to reap benefits for mafia without having to pay the consequences (since he's dying anyway), so everyone's words should be treated with a grain of salt until D3 starts. How to approach this should vary case by case, but for now I would not suggest the cop or the doctor to counterclaim others if they realize someone is lying (better to wait a day and see the liar die of poison than expose your important power role).
LOL Once again this is all based on the poisoner KNOWING who is Mafia.

So, Iron, that's it in a nutshell. Care to share the idea on why you thought I could be making an issue of it but wanted to hear from me first?

VOTE RODION

Why? I beleive he is Mafia. The closer to me is that he has asked everyone to wait until day 3 before we counter claim. Folks this game will not go past day 3. Rodion knows this. If we have a 6to3 town vs mafia ratio and they manage to lynch a town today and then get a night kill the game could be over by day 3 and not see night 3

Golden Rule. Town does not lie. Rodion knows this is a game with new folk but I have played enough to know his aswer is pure BS.

[Iron Butterfly]

http://mafiawiki.notesmash.org/wiki/Poisoner

I forgot to add. This is the poisoner role. It does not poison itself. It does not know who is who to target.

[zimmah]

you're overreacting IB. rodion makes a valid point. if someone would claim atm, i think counterclaiming may only make the situation worse.

in fact i find your reaction more suspicious than rodion's advice.

[Rodion]

Answers in blue.

Thanks for the compliments, but I honestly can't tell what happened in the scenes the way it is written.

Why is this important to you? I have an idea why you are still making an issue of it. If like to hear it from you.

I'm not making "an issue" of anything. I just want to fully understand the available data to understand the game better.

According to my suspicions (and some people have already mentioned that in their own speculations) and unless Iron Butterfly shockingly claims busdriver saying he swapped PCM with someone else, the 4 people in the scene are the poisoner and 3 mafia members (a 3-man mafia seems the proper ammount for a 12-player game).

Mafia "meet" at night. They do not all attack target together in this case PCM.

I know. The scene does not say PCM was shot by 3 people, does it? It mentioned he was killed by 1 but there were 2 more players around. I don't understand why you think your busdriver theory is more reliable than guessing mafia has 3 people and one of them got (or did not get) poisoned.

That means the poisoner's target was mafia.
There is no way PCM would know who Mafia was. Third parties do not have the advantage of knowing who is who. You know that.

And who the hell said PCM targeted someone he knew to be mafia? He targeted someone, period. The scene indicates it was mafia. At least to me and some others who speculated that.

I don't know if he is supposed to get a message from the mod stating that he was poisoned, but if he is. he already knows he is scheduled to die. That kind of freedom (since he has nothing to lose) can (and should) be used to make as much damage as possible to town before his last breath.
Pure speculation PLUS the poisoner does is not poisoned he poisons

Well, I AM speculating. I don't see the problem in it and I probably won't unless you tell me. And I do not understand anything you wrote after "PLUS" (yes, I know the poisoner poisons and is not poisoned - what exactly is your point here?)

That includes, for instance, fakeclaiming town JOAT with a guilty result on someone. He would most assuredly force a mislynch before he got to die and he would not be counterclaimed by the cop because he chose to claim JOAT (a role that may or may not exist). He could also claim doctor to be counterclaimed and expose the town doctor for an almost assured N2 kill. These are just examples, but the possibilities are endless.
Now your just talking to confuse the new folks. Once again wild speculation with no basis in fact.

Yes, I am still speculating. I think a lot when I play. I again don't understand what your problem with me is. You wanted to understand why I was curious about something and I told you. Now you're going to say I'm trying to confuse people?
If you don't want to know what is going on in my head, perhaps not asking is the right choice for you?

The key thing is that, if we establish that mafia has a poisoned member in their ranks, today will be an unique mafia day in that there is someone that can lie to reap benefits for mafia without having to pay the consequences (since he's dying anyway), so everyone's words should be treated with a grain of salt until D3 starts. How to approach this should vary case by case, but for now I would not suggest the cop or the doctor to counterclaim others if they realize someone is lying (better to wait a day and see the liar die of poison than expose your important power role).
LOL Once again this is all based on the poisoner KNOWING who is Mafia.

No, it isn't. Read again. If mafia was poisoned and the mod warned the poisoner player that he was poisoned, then he knows he is poisoned. It is totally irrelevant whether PCM knew he was poisoning mafia or town or whether PCM had not idea at all.

So, Iron, that's it in a nutshell. Care to share the idea on why you thought I could be making an issue of it but wanted to hear from me first?

VOTE RODION

Why? I beleive he is Mafia. The closer to me is that he has asked everyone to wait until day 3 before we counter claim. Folks this game will not go past day 3. Rodion knows this. If we have a 6to3 town vs mafia ratio and they manage to lynch a town today and then get a night kill the game could be over by day 3 and not see night 3

And who the hell said anything about seeing night 3? Yes, if town lynches wrong today and 1 townie dies tonight AND town lynches wrong again tomorrow, town most likely loses before N3 arrives. What is your point?

I only said that if someone fakeclaims doctor today, the doctor can wait until D3 to counterclaim. Why? Because more likely than not the person that fakeclaimed doctor is going to die by poison, so exposing the true doctor is not needed. If the fake doctor somehow does not die, then we'd enter D3 with a certain lynch (the false doctor). I don't see how my suggestion (that depends on verifying the grammar on the night scene) inherently forces town to mislynch 2 times in a row and lose the game. Your post contains logic that I think only you can grasp.

Golden Rule. Town does not lie. Rodion knows this is a game with new folk but I have played enough to know his aswer is pure BS.

It's really hard to reply to your accusations because they don't seem to make sense at all in my head. Please try to be as clear as possible when you reply to this.

[Iron Butterfly]

you're overreacting IB. rodion makes a valid point. if someone would claim atm, i think counterclaiming may only make the situation worse.

in fact i find your reaction more suspicious than rodion's advice.

you know what...I expected this reaction to you. I fully beleive you are Mafia as well as Catnip was spot on with you. The more I re read it the more I beleive it. I found it no coincidence you didnt see a bus driver when I presented it.

No this will be a very short game. It will not go to a third evening. *grin* we can only lynch one person at a time though, and Rodion is the man of the moment.

Tell you what zimmah. Tell me how my reaction was suspicious.

Show me where I am wrong about what Rodion has presented. You want to step up to the plate? Present you facts.