Conquer Club

I didn't want to triple post and I could see this derailing the thread, but I had to vent. I'm in no way discussing anything else about the game.

chapcrap wrote:And this time you can't blame it on the mod.

I wrote:Also, while lying and tricks are a part of mafia, I would never stoop to claiming that the mod made a mistake unless he actually did so. It's quite insulting that my integrity is questioned in such a manner. If I were faking, as some have mentioned, I would've argued that some mechanic or player obfuscated strike's action from me; claiming a mod error is just a dirty trick.

Honestly, I would consider such an action a mod-kill worthy offense. I'm really tired of this. There's lying as part of the game, and then there's lying as cheating. I would consider this cheating. I will quit the game if my integrity is called into question.

-Tails

Dude...wtf? Keep it in the thread...

Nebuchadnezer wrote:Dude...wtf? Keep it in the thread...

Is this section not called mafia discussions? I would need more of the backstory, what seems to have happened in the game? What part of the game has there been a cheat in?

Just read the game... It all makes sense to me though I won't say anything.

You're integrity has not been questioned as of recently. You have been accused of lying (normal, legal lying) about your night action last night.

everywhere116 wrote:You're integrity has not been questioned as of recently. You have been accused of lying (normal, legal lying) about your night action last night.

Then the two are unrelated and the comment was nothing more than a poke at the last incident. However, I'll admit I probably let my temper get the better of me and may have overreacted.

-Tails

Nebuchadnezer wrote:Dude...wtf? Keep it in the thread...

I don't see this as a breach of forum rules.

As to the larger question of integrity, one may certainly beg the question of mod mistakes, but given that mods do make mistakes, I do not believe that we should take that for granted. If the mod has made a mistake, the onus is on the mod to announce that a mistake has been made.

To not disclose a mistake by the mod I think is bad modding, which can lead to allegation of player integrity.

As for the broader topic of lying as a player, I think NBC Mafia was a good example of certain lines that some players are willing to cross and others are not. I don't believe they're a reflection of one's character, but past experiences are still the only thing we have to go on and what someone did in a previous game may be a consideration to try and analyze current/future behavior.

That said, I do believe very strongly in keeping my integrity and certain tactics that I believe are dirty or underhanded may cause me to ask for a replacement/resign from the game.

safariguy5 wrote:As to the larger question of integrity, one may certainly beg the question of mod mistakes, but given that mods do make mistakes, I do not believe that we should take that for granted. If the mod has made a mistake, the onus is on the mod to announce that a mistake has been made.

To not disclose a mistake by the mod I think is bad modding, which can lead to allegation of player integrity.

Should a mod publicly announce a mistake (IE sending a player incorrect action results) when the circumstances in the thread means that doing so basically means that the mod is confirming that player's claim?

safariguy5 wrote:

Nebuchadnezer wrote:Dude...wtf? Keep it in the thread...

I don't see this as a breach of forum rules.

I don't know, this thread is definitely shaping my thoughts in regards to a player in game. Basically, since he made this thread he is either telling the truth in game (and his out of game actions are now altering people's perception of if he is doing so), or he is far more crazy and underhanded than he is complaining about potentially being accused of being.

It's a tricky question spiesr. I recently made a mistake and wanted to just never show my face in forum again. I think the way I dealt with it in Pokemon is the ideal strategy.

Send out PMs to players involved about the details of the mistake.
Post in thread that there was a mistake and that PMs have been sent.
Don't confirm the contents of the PMs.

Fixing mistake's is part of the mod's duty. I even keep it in my rules. The mod should certainly own up to the mistake, but perhaps not necessarily the nature of it. Whether they have to acknowledge it right away is also up to question, but that, I think, depends on how much it affects the game at hand. For example, if a player's actions are in question and suddenly, the mod "corrects a mistake" where no mistake was made (or at least not corrected), I don't believe the mod has to stand for it.

If a player tried to pin that kind of thing on me, I'd modkill them.

I seem to recall an incident where I modkilled both you and derfderf because he lied about having seen your role pm and knowing you were the godfather. He, unfortunately was right, but I felt it was serious enough that I might have killed you even if he was wrong (I absolutely would have killed him).

Open question: Would I be right in doing that?

pancakemix wrote:Fixing mistake's is part of the mod's duty. I even keep it in my rules. The mod should certainly own up to the mistake, but perhaps not necessarily the nature of it. Whether they have to acknowledge it right away is also up to question, but that, I think, depends on how much it affects the game at hand. For example, if a player's actions are in question and suddenly, the mod "corrects a mistake" where no mistake was made (or at least not corrected), I don't believe the mod has to stand for it.

If a player tried to pin that kind of thing on me, I'd modkill them.

I seem to recall an incident where I modkilled both you and derfderf because he lied about having seen your role pm and knowing you were the godfather. He, unfortunately was right, but I felt it was serious enough that I might have killed you even if he was wrong (I absolutely would have killed him).

Open question: Would I be right in doing that?

Again, open to interpretation but a line I wouldn't cross.

I think that lying about role PM's or making it seem like you broke one of the rules is a modkill offense to me. If you try to mislead people by claiming you did something that warrants a modkill, than I as mod will modkill you. So I think you were totally justified in that case PCM.

As for proper etiquette about mod making a mistake, obviously I would send corrective PM's if it involved a night action. I would announce in thread that I made a mistake but that's it. If people want to argue about what mistake I actually made, then that's up to them.

spiesr wrote:

safariguy5 wrote:As to the larger question of integrity, one may certainly beg the question of mod mistakes, but given that mods do make mistakes, I do not believe that we should take that for granted. If the mod has made a mistake, the onus is on the mod to announce that a mistake has been made.

To not disclose a mistake by the mod I think is bad modding, which can lead to allegation of player integrity.

Should a mod publicly announce a mistake (IE sending a player incorrect action results) when the circumstances in the thread means that doing so basically means that the mod is confirming that player's claim?

safariguy5 wrote:

Nebuchadnezer wrote:Dude...wtf? Keep it in the thread...

I don't see this as a breach of forum rules.

I don't know, this thread is definitely shaping my thoughts in regards to a player in game. Basically, since he made this thread he is either telling the truth in game (and his out of game actions are now altering people's perception of if he is doing so), or he is far more crazy and underhanded than he is complaining about potentially being accused of being.

True, but I'd like to think the spirit of the thread was a more general discussion about what is acceptable behavior in regards to player interactions as well as seeking opinions on how to notify players if the mod made a mistake. Certainly, could tails have chosen an example from an archived game? Of course. If the mod of his game feels this thread crosses the line with regards to posting outside the game, then corrective action can/should be taken. But from a forum moderating standpoint, this thread does not warrant any real sort of action with regards to the rules of the mafia forum as well as the discussions subforum in my opinion.

Of course, if anyone feels like this thread violated community guidelines or would like some sort of split or temporary lock, anyone is free to PM me to discuss the situation. But given the subsequent posts by tails, it seemed more like a thread to blow off some steam and has sufficient moved away from active game material that I think is has some discussion merit.

This thread does not compromise the game; it is merely a statement about what I regarded as cheating and how it relates to me.

saf wrote:If the mod has made a mistake, the onus is on the mod to announce that a mistake has been made.

spiesr wrote:Should a mod publicly announce a mistake (IE sending a player incorrect action results) when the circumstances in the thread means that doing so basically means that the mod is confirming that player's claim?

I think freezie handled it well, and it went along with what Doom posted; he said there was an error, but didn't support the veracity of either players' claim.

I don't know, this thread is definitely shaping my thoughts in regards to a player in game. Basically, since he made this thread he is either telling the truth in game (and his out of game actions are now altering people's perception of if he is doing so), or he is far more crazy and underhanded than he is complaining about potentially being accused of being.

This thread does not reflect on my in-game claim; it neither supports nor otherwise validifies my claim. It merely is on the subject of how a mod admitted to a mistake, and was subsequently ignored. And really, am I just supposed to sit back while I'm thrice called cheater? If this were the 19th century there would be pistols drawn at 50 paces for such an offense.

pancake wrote:If a player tried to pin that kind of thing on me, I'd modkill them.

Exactly. Thank you.

-Tails

Considering this thread maybe we should consider a thread listing some informal mafia etiquette? I created a similar thread in the past but it was more like this one to blow off some steam at something I had seen in a game (that I was not in) that helped to ruin the quality of the game.

strike wolf wrote:Considering this thread maybe we should consider a thread listing some informal mafia etiquette? I created a similar thread in the past but it was more like this one to blow off some steam at something I had seen in a game (that I was not in) that helped to ruin the quality of the game.

Ionno, etiquette seems to be a pretty subjective thing. For example, I wouldn't fake a power role claim if I were VT or really any other claim, especially since many of us subscribe to a LAL policy. However, some of the other players don't necessarily believe that to be true.

Maybe we could have a thread, but I doubt we would be able to agree on some of the guidelines.

On roles I agree we wouldn't agree but in matters of mod-player interactions, I feel we could benefit by filling in gray areas. at least a thread to discuss it in.

strike wolf wrote:On roles I agree we wouldn't agree but in matters of mod-player interactions, I feel we could benefit by filling in gray areas. at least a thread to discuss it in.

I agree. There's some stuff new players wouldn't know because it's not in the rules (such as stuff that doesn't happy often but can still drastically effect gameplay and/or game fairness).

I don't think we really need a thread about acceptable roleclaims/ roleclaim ettiquette, because then it becomes a thread about acceptable lies to make. Let's admit it, Mafia is a game about lies and deception. I myself am a pretty bad liar when it comes to mafia games. (even when I'm town sometimes) Player etiquette has little to do with what kind of lies a player makes in-game in terms of what role he claims etc. However, lying to the mod or co-mod or lying between mods is very destructive to trust. ANd also lying after end-game is a big trust breaker, because the endgame is when everyone spills their in-game secrets. But lying in-game is not a trust-breaker because as mafia you're expected to lie (otherwise it would be considered suicide altho I have exposed myself as mafia before, but rather as a clever tactic versus just giving up). No wonder Applejack doesn't play mafia.

But yeah, a thread about player etiquette including the best thing to do in certain scenarios would be good.

-SG7 ( )