EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION Tell me your thoughts about why the dice provoke such strong emotions in people. Typically, why do they provoke negative emotions and skepticism about their legitimacy.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 8:51 am
by Dukasaur
If you want a deterministic strategy game, play chess.
Risk is a dice game, subject to wild swings of luck. This is known.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 4:59 pm
by HerrHitzfeld
Dukasaur wrote:If you want a deterministic strategy game, play chess.
Risk is a dice game, subject to wild swings of luck. This is known.
I do play chess.
I'm just curious what people think specifically about the algorithm on CC. Is it good? Bad? Realistic? Problematic? EDIT Knowing that the algorithm isn't true randomness, although I'm sure it's about as close as it can be, what do you think about it? Does it really cause enough discrepancies between itself and true randomness to raise questions about it's legitimacy? Does anyone have any hard evidence to support some of the skeptical claims? Or are all such claims only driven by irrational decisions fueled by negative emotion?
Risk wouldn't be Risk without a luck factor.
I've played plenty of games on CC and plenty IRL, both with wild swings of luck. However, it just seems to me that CC tends be to be a little more wild. EDITWhy do I feel that way? I try to put facts and logic over feelings. But yet, as I analyze my admittedly anecdotal experiences with the dice, I can't seem to shake the feeling that CC is, at least somewhat, more wild than truly random dice.
I like the luck factor of Risk. But it should never be so luck based that strategy is meaningless. (and I'm not saying that it is) EDITBecause I know full well that that isn't true. But sometimes I find myself thinking that.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 5:08 pm
by riskllama
*inb4lock*
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 5:55 pm
by Hooch
-1 for loose, +1 for too.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 7:56 pm
by Nut Shot Scott
Hooch wrote:-1 for loose, +1 for too.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 7:59 pm
by Nut Shot Scott
HerrHitzfeld wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:If you want a deterministic strategy game, play chess.
Risk is a dice game, subject to wild swings of luck. This is known.
I do play chess.
I'm just curious what people think specifically about the algorithm on CC. Is it good? Bad? Realistic? Problematic?
Risk wouldn't be Risk without a luck factor.
I've played plenty of games on CC and plenty IRL, both with wild swings of luck. However, it just seems to me that CC tends be to be a little more wild.
I like the luck factor of Risk. But it should never be so luck based that strategy is meaningless. (and I'm not saying that it is)
I would say people who have the most issues seem to be those who play 1 v 1 non trench games. Those are generally as luck based as it gets imo. I think you can mitigate the dice factor by playing certain settings.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 8:27 pm
by iAmCaffeine
yeah the dice system sucks. no it wont be upgraded. get over it or dont. you're welcome.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 9:14 pm
by HerrHitzfeld
Nut Shot Scott wrote:
HerrHitzfeld wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:If you want a deterministic strategy game, play chess.
Risk is a dice game, subject to wild swings of luck. This is known.
I do play chess.
I'm just curious what people think specifically about the algorithm on CC. Is it good? Bad? Realistic? Problematic?
Risk wouldn't be Risk without a luck factor.
I've played plenty of games on CC and plenty IRL, both with wild swings of luck. However, it just seems to me that CC tends be to be a little more wild.
I like the luck factor of Risk. But it should never be so luck based that strategy is meaningless. (and I'm not saying that it is)
I would say people who have the most issues seem to be those who play 1 v 1 non trench games. Those are generally as luck based as it gets imo. I think you can mitigate the dice factor by playing certain settings.
I would agree
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 9:48 am
by Dukasaur
I would tend to disagree. Not about those being very luck-dependant games (they are) but about this being what makes people the most upset.
I think when you play 1v1, you mostly go into it expecting a high luck factor. When it swings against you, it may be mildly irritating, you might even spit out an angry invective or two, but it's not going to result in total hate.
It's when you play something that's supposed to NOT be so luck dependent. When you play something like a Poly game on Gallipoli, and you start off fairly even, but then despite doing everything right get completely crushed when your dice are impotent for three consecutive turns, allowing the opponent to build up an insurmountable lead. That's when you REALLY learn to hate the dice.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 6:04 pm
by HerrHitzfeld
Dukasaur wrote:I would tend to disagree. Not about those being very luck-dependant games (they are) but about this being what makes people the most upset.
I think when you play 1v1, you mostly go into it expecting a high luck factor. When it swings against you, it may be mildly irritating, you might even spit out an angry invective or two, but it's not going to result in total hate.
It's when you play something that's supposed to NOT be so luck dependent. When you play something like a Poly game on Gallipoli, and you start off fairly even, but then despite doing everything right get completely crushed when your dice are impotent for three consecutive turns, allowing the opponent to build up an insurmountable lead. That's when you REALLY learn to hate the dice.
Fair point.
I'm sure an entire thread could be dedicated to just talking about what maps and settings make for the most strategy dependent and least luck dependent games.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 12:42 pm
by jkppkj
HerrHitzfeld wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:If you want a deterministic strategy game, play chess.
Risk is a dice game, subject to wild swings of luck. This is known.
I do play chess.
I'm just curious what people think specifically about the algorithm on CC. Is it good? Bad? Realistic? Problematic?
Risk wouldn't be Risk without a luck factor.
I've played plenty of games on CC and plenty IRL, both with wild swings of luck. However, it just seems to me that CC tends be to be a little more wild.
I like the luck factor of Risk. But it should never be so luck based that strategy is meaningless. (and I'm not saying that it is)
The dice seem to go on unrealistic runs, but that could just be confirmation bias as well all tend to remember that time a game swung when we lost a 9v3 or got beat by 22v40 last gasp from an opponent who we thought we had closed out. Both those are supposed to happen about ~5% of the time according to riskodds.com; so do we lose track of the 95 times it went our way and think it must have only been 20-30 times but never forget the 5 times the dice effed us over and curse the random number generator? I'd add that the speed at which dice rolls happen on CC compared to IRL could really compound that recall/confirmation bias in interpreting the dice outcomes.
It'd be nice to have the luck stats not just tell you what numbers you've rolled but rather the take/loss outcomes.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 11:02 pm
by HerrHitzfeld
jkppkj wrote:The dice seem to go on unrealistic runs, but that could just be confirmation bias as well all tend to remember that time a game swung when we lost a 9v3 or got beat by 22v40 last gasp from an opponent who we thought we had closed out. Both those are supposed to happen about ~5% of the time according to riskodds.com; so do we lose track of the 95 times it went our way and think it must have only been 20-30 times but never forget the 5 times the dice effed us over and curse the random number generator? I'd add that the speed at which dice rolls happen on CC compared to IRL could really compound that recall/confirmation bias in interpreting the dice outcomes.
It'd be nice to have the luck stats not just tell you what numbers you've rolled but rather the take/loss outcomes.
I'm sure most all of us have confirmation bias, it's human nature. Also, since we're usually not watching our defending dice as closely on CC as we would IRL we may not always see when we're the ones screwing over our opponent by defending a 2v12. EDITAnd thus we miss some of those times when we had incredible dice. Adding further to any misconceptions we might have. Which, by the way, is the craziest dice I've seen to date. Me and my teammates had wrapped up a close game on Arms Race and all we needed to win was a 12v2. We lost that roll and the game. EDITWhich exactly proves your point. I'm not even one to get riled up over some bad rolls but I still remember it well.
I've never heard of riskodds.com before. Neat little site there. According to that, 12v2 should only lose about ~0.3% of the time. EDITWhich is really interesting. Again, an entire thread could be dedicated to this one topic. 29v13 should only lose about ~0.6% of the time.
And yes, seeing the take/loss outcomes would be nice.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 6:11 pm
by general cod
The old expression 'it is what it is' rings true. The upsetting side is having reached a higher rank after multi player game/point wins EVERY time soon after comes a wave of abominable crap dice and no chance losses taking you back down, always happens which is why to continue to progress you must play big maps with a known strategy to increase your odds. Anybody who has played this for a length of time knows this, i jave tried playing bot games at this point to lose on purpose but it doesn't work sadly, what goes up will come down unless you multi cheat or play boring long winded games, or you can play those boring games like 'nut shot' does and still lose!!
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 6:12 pm
by general cod
I know you'll love that Scott
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:33 am
by Nut Shot Scott
general cod wrote:I know you'll love that Scott
In my defense, I lose the exciting games too.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:32 am
by Dukasaur
general cod wrote:The old expression 'it is what it is' rings true.
That's not an old expression. It's only been on the scene a decade or two, and what's more, it's become super annoying. Of course it is what it is. Would be very difficult for it to be what it isn't. It's just a tool for people who have nothing intelligent to add to a conversation but nonetheless want to hear themselves interject a sound of some kind.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:34 am
by rockfist
You really hate the dice when they cause your Clan to lose a championship you think you ought to have won. A poly game is very irritating, but lose a championship by what you perceive to be poor dice then come and talk to me. I think everyone in top clans can point to certain games where they believe they outplayed their opponents only to have 0-14 dice or some other such nonsense ruin it for them. The more competitive you've been in close wars the larger the number of "dice screwings" you accumulate and trust me, you remember all of them (I even have names for some of ours/mine...like the Christmas massacre for instance). When the dice screw your opponents it was inevitable that you would have won that game anyway, so it just sped things up.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:12 pm
by general cod
Dukasaur wrote "That's not an old expression. It's only been on the scene a decade or two, and what's more, it's become super annoying. Of course it is what it is. Would be very difficult for it to be what it isn't. It's just a tool for people who have nothing intelligent to add to a conversation but nonetheless want to hear themselves interject a sound of some kind." Well that is quite amusing, a long winded damning of a simple yet apt summing up of the 'random dice'. Would you rather i said yes it is shit so just deal with it? Expected better than that to be fair from the likes of you. How about 'expect to be disappointed by the dice' that way it's a nice surprise when you don't get shafted by the dice.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:37 pm
by Dukasaur
I expect to be disappointed by all things, so I don't consider the dice unique in that respect.
This is a vicious and sadistic universe we live in, and CC is just a tiny and insignificant microcosm in it, neither more nor less forgiving than the rest of it.
Life's an endless series of torments, trials, and tribulations, and then (no matter how hard you worked or how brilliant you were) you die. Why would expect something else from CC?
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:10 am
by general cod
In most things people generally 'expect' a fair deal, same here obviously. People should complain more as it helps to stop the greedy, selfish pricks from their pursuit of self gratification. Sadly greed is celebrated and supported by its brethren, abuse of power goes hand in hand with that. Fact is we live in a beautiful world with 'mostly' beautiful people - better we celebrate this other than get lost in conspiracy theories, but always stand up against those who would seek to poison your mind with their indoctrinated shit - like the mods !! (Joke)
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:21 am
by general cod
The 'new' theory of happiness is to 'expect to be disappointed' that way you may be nicely surprised if it's better or if not you can say 'yeh i knew it would be shit'. For me i try to be positive and hope for the best. Dukasaur clearly loves the old cliche's so here's my favourite... Smile and the world smiles with you, be miserable and you're on your own, ofc there's exceptions and everyone is different just don't let the bastards get you down!
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:22 am
by general cod
Bastards like the dice !!
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:40 am
by 2dimes
general cod wrote:Fact is we live in a beautiful world with 'mostly' beautiful people - better we celebrate this other than get lost in conspiracy theories, but always stand up against those who would seek to poison your mind...
Rick Mercer wrote:Laugh and the whole world laughs with you. Cry and we'll give you something to cry about.
Re: Let's Talk About The Dice
Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:07 pm
by HerrHitzfeld
general cod wrote:The 'new' theory of happiness is to 'expect to be disappointed' that way you may be nicely surprised if it's better or if not you can say 'yeh i knew it would be shit'. For me i try to be positive and hope for the best. Dukasaur clearly loves the old cliche's so here's my favourite... Smile and the world smiles with you, be miserable and you're on your own, ofc there's exceptions and everyone is different just don't let the bastards get you down!
Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 3:22 am
