Poll: Should screenshots of the map be illegal in Fog games?

[BrutalBob]

This little gem came up again in C&A.

The debate is over whether it should be against the rules to post a screenshot of the map to display troop positions in fog games.

Currently it is not against the rules.

To summarise-

The argument for it not being against the rules is basically that you can disclose troop numbers in chat and may or may not be telling the truth. The argument goes that you could use photoshop etc to manipulate the image and therefore may or may not be telling the truth, so whats the difference.

The argument for it being against the rules is that it is a low down mongrel dog act and is against the spirit of a fog game. This side puts forward that not everyone is capable of using photoshop and therefore it is different to revealing it in chat.

Here is the most recent C&A report
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=219025

Here is an older one which as you would expect covers much of the same ground
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=216942#p4778361

I thought it would be interesting to run a poll.

[DoomYoshi]

There should be automatic screenshots that everyone can see.

[xroads]

There should be automatic screenshots that everyone can see.

That would defeat the purpose of a fog game.

[DoomYoshi]

There should be automatic screenshots that everyone can see.

That would defeat the purpose of a fog game.

Exactly!

[EBConquer]

Not if you're good at Photoshop.

[MagnusGreeol]

- I voted it should be against the rules to screenshot AND discuss troop counts in chat,,It's so frickin lame! Stick with good diplomacy tactics rather than give away positions.

-\MGM/-♎

[BrutalBob]

- I voted it should be against the rules to screenshot AND discuss troop counts in chat,,It's so frickin lame! Stick with good diplomacy tactics rather than give away positions.

-\MGM/-♎

Disagree with the chat thing.

Red: Hey Blue, Green has a massive stack on my border. I need help or we both lose the game
Green: Dont listen to him Blue. Red is lying and has an 80 stack that I can do nothing about

Diplomacy, banter, gamesmanship etc. No harm here. You cannot work out what is truth.

Hopefully we wont see this-

Blue: I am reporting you both, giving away troop numbers is against the rules

[Dukasaur]

Stick with good diplomacy tactics rather than give away positions.

Good diplomacy, in games as in real life, is whatever works.

[BrutalBob]

Screenshots are easy to create but quite hard to fake,

As good as this attempt is I would not be fooling anyone. So a legit looking one is most likely an undeniable screenshot and is definitely against the rules of FoW, whereas chatting is unverifiable as to whether it is a lie or not.

[Serbia]

Screenshots are easy to create but quite hard to fake,

As good as this attempt is I would not be fooling anyone. So a legit looking one is most likely an undeniable screenshot and is definitely against the rules of FoW, whereas chatting is unverifiable as to whether it is a lie or not.

It's not a good attempt. It's a piss poor attempt.

[rockfist]

Ban screen shots period.

I rose to general playing by memory before I joined a clan and was required to use them.

[blakebowling]

Both of these screenshots are from the same game. Can you tell which one is real and which isn't?





(Hint: I changed the troops on Dakar)

[Metsfanmax]

I support banning screen shots because it's a level of psychological subversion that is too strong for me. Whether you fake the screenshot or not, it's impossible to forget what it showed, and it seems like playing for an unfair edge.

[BrutalBob]

Both of these screenshots are from the same game. Can you tell which one is real and which isn't?

(Hint: I changed the troops on Dakar)

Its a good job.

The point is that a forgery like this is out of reach of possibly a large number of players.

(The 6 is a fake)

[Donelladan]

@rockfist, we are not speaking about snap for yourself. We are talking about posting an image of what you see in the chat of a fog game so that the other players can see what you see, therefore revealing stack of another player.

blakebowling, you cannot compare your skills with the skill of the normal CC player.
You are an informatician. Most of us aren't. That you are able to make a perfect screenshot doesn't mean I'll ever be able to it.


In any case, I find BrutalBob really well show how easy it is using game chat :

Red: Hey Blue, Green has a massive stack on my border. I need help or we both lose the game
Green: Dont listen to him Blue. Red is lying and has an 80 stack that I can do nothing about

It's so easy to cast doubt on anyone's claim in the game chat. Someone say something, you only have to type the opposite, and that's it no one know the truth.

Why did someone put a screenshot in the chat in the first place ??
Exactly because what is described above happened.

Player A ( telling the truth) : He has huge stack on my border need help ! Stop fighting me he's the real threat !
Player B ( Lying ): What a bunch of BS, player A is still the leader, don't listen to him.

Then Player A put a screenshot to convince other player. -> screenshot was a step further to convince them.


Therefore, comparing screenshot and typing info in the game chat isn't the same. Revealing troops count and position or saying whatever about the game in the chat happens all the time, and is very easy to handle.
Screenshot are extremely rare, and if the 1st time it was reported in the C&A it has been said it's forbidden, the 2nd time would not even have happened.
Read the topic, in the 2nd C&A report, accused of posting screenshot said he did it because he read the 1st C&A and knew it was allowed.
This means, the guy in the 2nd case probably also would have think it should be forbidden if nobody had told him it was allowed...


I think when we are asking, should screenshots of the map be illegal in Fog games, rather than pondering if it's possible to fake a screenshot, we should ask ourself, does allowing screenshots of the map in fog game bring something good to the game, to the gameplay, to CC users ?

Honestly I see nothing good coming from that. We do not need screenshots to have nice game. There is absolutely no advantage allowing screenshot.
On the other hand there is disadvantage, it's unfair to some people, it is breaking the fog, and it cannot be counter easily.
People did not start posting fake screenshot. They start posting real screenshot of the game and their opponent were helpless against this tactic. And it was definitely a serious break of a fog game.

What does a fog game means ? It means fog prevent you to see. That's why it's called fog, because you can't see through the fog. Very basically, showing an image of the map, is therefore, breaking the fog, because you can see.

[BrutalBob]

Well said Donelladan, especially

does allowing screenshots of the map in fog game bring something good to the game

[shoop76]

This is one of those things that will again get a split return. Just like timing out in a nuclear game. About half say its ok and the other half can't stand it. One of those things that is not against the rules, but in my opinion unethical. But as it stands some players will use this and any other means possible to win games.

I personally can't stand it and won't do it but others will since there is no rule against it and probably never will be.

[DoomYoshi]

blakebowling, you cannot compare your skills with the skill of the normal CC player.
You are an informatician. Most of us aren't. That you are able to make a perfect screenshot doesn't mean I'll ever be able to it.

Between bot games and scenarios and the collusion of friends, anyone can make a gamestate in a different game and then just snap that.

[Donelladan]

blakebowling, you cannot compare your skills with the skill of the normal CC player.
You are an informatician. Most of us aren't. That you are able to make a perfect screenshot doesn't mean I'll ever be able to it.

Between bot games and scenarios and the collusion of friends, anyone can make a gamestate in a different game and then just snap that.

Saying it might be possible to produce it without photoshop remain quite irrelevant to me, since I believe the question should be, do we need to allow screenshot ? to which i'd say no. There is no reason to allow it.

But I do not think it's not as easy as you said to make a gamestate in a different game and just snap it. Take blakebowling example. There is at least 7 players. And he can see troops from any of those players.
To have this exact configuration with only dakar being a 6 instead of 9, with bot or with scenario, it would still be very very difficult to have this.

Also, bot and scenario don't apply to all game. For example :
Game 16123293

I won't post you an image of my situation, because I do not even know how to post an image in the forum. ( given I can probably learn it in less than 10 minutes but I don't want to spend that time learning how to do that).
But this game is on King's Court II, so impossible to recreate a similar situation using bots or scenario. I could take another game, but even if I played quite a lot of gamey on KCII already, I am not sure I have a game with very similar position, and even if I had one, it would take me ages to find the correct snapshop that show same position so that everyone in the game would believe my screenshot.

But, please, consider how difficult it is to do that ( assuming you are green ) :

Red: Hey Blue, Green has a massive stack on my border. I need help or we both lose the game
Green: Dont listen to him Blue. Red is lying and has an 80 stack that I can do nothing about

And compare it to the trouble of counterfeiting an image or finding another real one but with the troops of the same color.
Seriously that's the same ?

Also, once more, why should we allow screenshot ? Wouldn't it be so much easier to simply forbid it ? Given that's it's anyway already considered as forbidden by most players ?
I assume most people consider it as forbidden since it's very rare that it happens, and when it does people seems to go to C&A thinking it should be forbidden.
Like i've played lot of foggy multiplayers games and I've never seen someone posting a screenshot. Please tell me how often it happens ?
People don't do it, either because it's too much trouble, or because they think it's forbidden, therefore why should we allow it ? What benefit do we get allowing it ?
I am telling you there is drawback allowing it, but I can't see any benefit.

[rockfist]

@rockfist, we are not speaking about snap for yourself. We are talking about posting an image of what you see in the chat of a fog game so that the other players can see what you see, therefore revealing stack of another player.

I know. I was saying it should go one step further. I realize there is not a good way to entirely ban screen shots, but make it a total pain in the ass to take them or analyze them and 99% of people will quit taking them, which gives people with a good memory back the advantage they stole from us by making screen shots too readily available.

[IcePack]

In short my opinion is:
Poll Option 2:
No Snapshot
Chat ok

[Army of GOD]

I don't see why screenshots is any different than chat. Both can be faked

[BrutalBob]

I don't see why screenshots is any different than chat. Both can be faked

But not by everyone, therefore unfair advantage to some

[MagnusGreeol]

- It's just so lame when someone blurts out " Hey blue stop attacking me because red has +37 troops behind me ok, please, cuz he'll get ya ya know", lame game when a weakness from fear gives way to dishonour fog of W∆R!

- I won't ever do it, and would rate accordingly if I ever come across it (haven't yet thank God).

-\MGM/-♎

[BrutalBob]

- It's just so lame when someone blurts out " Hey blue stop attacking me because red has +37 troops behind me ok, please, cuz he'll get ya ya know", lame game when a weakness from fear gives way to dishonour fog of W∆R!

- I won't ever do it, and would rate accordingly if I ever come across it (haven't yet thank God).

-\MGM/-♎

I dont see chat revelations as a problem. I consider it part of the game in a similar vein to diplomacy and truces or similar agreements. I dont especially like truces and generally try to avoid them, but they exist and you live with them.

No one likes having their troop placements revealed in chat, but it is part of the game. You can counter them in chat and confuse the situation.

I have had it done to me I have probably done it a couple of times too. Neither case happens very often. Again, if you acknowledge that it can happen and adjust your expectations and strategy accordingly its not as upsetting