What can be done to reverse the decline?

[boberz]

you should go and read the thread... what you are suggesting has been hashed out, argued, debated and then left alone while no actions were taken or word came from up top. oh, and then it comes back again and again... kind of like now... however, must users have a valid input, unlike yourself. you know, they say stuff like: divide the maps by difficulty, make players have to play X amount of games before unlocking level 2 or 3 or whatever, give new members X amount of speed games to get them into games that are having turns taken, etc, etc, etc...

see, that is how you make a true suggestion. you don't just pop up deep into a thread and say, "they should get rid of most of the site, BECAUSE I DONT LIKE OR UNDERSTAND IT!!!"... that is just asinine and non-sensical. go to the back of the line and try again...-Jésus noir

I didn't pop in and make any suggestions actually. I echoed a suggestion somebody else had made. It was exactly what I thought in returning to the site and so I wanted to add my voice to it. I don't remember needing to ask your permission to add my opinion however much like bollocks you think it is. Further I read a fair bit of the thread and saw suggestions such as limiting maps, rating maps and so on. They don't in my opinion address the real issue that the site needs to look busy. If there more maps than available games it looks very silly indeed. If a player familiar with standard risk rules has to filter out as many games as they currently do to find one to join then it is off putting. Many do not realise they need to filter them out until it is too late. I am not suggesting that it will win us ten thousand new members overnight but I think it would make the site better.

Giving new members speed games (or freemium members x number of speed games a month) would be a good development to drive activity. Whether it would drive revenue I don't know. Maybe we should give it a shot.

[Symmetry]

It seems better to bump this thread as a response to its twin.

The problem, of course, is not simple.

How do you attract new players to the game?
How to keep them?

Those are the big questions.

I agree with Boberz above- the ridiculously complicated additions to maps are silly. They cater to players who are already long established customers.

A more inclusive forum, on the social side, would also help.

[riskllama]

"more inclusive" how?
also, weren't you suggesting we cut a bunch of maps and settings a while back, owen? hypocrite much?

[Symmetry]

"more inclusive" how?

Hah, good question, I suppose you know what I'm referring to. I'd prefer it if this didn't get like those threads. I'd like things to be more accepting of gay people, and less accepting of hate groups, I guess. Just a more inclusive group of people.

I think I've had that argument enough in other threads here for it to be a given. I'd like to hear other people's suggestions though.

What's your take?

[WILLIAMS5232]

"more inclusive" how?

Hah, good question, I suppose you know what I'm referring to. I'd prefer it if this didn't get like those threads. I'd like things to be more accepting of gay people, and less accepting of hate groups, I guess. Just a more inclusive group of people.

I think I've had that argument enough in other threads here for it to be a given. I'd like to hear other people's suggestions though.

What's your take?

i've not noticed a real showing of hate groups,... but i only follow a handful of threads. so i could be missing something. i thought all was pretty welcome to post here, and everyone get's ribbed over various reasons. not just their sexual preferences.

[Symmetry]

"more inclusive" how?

Hah, good question, I suppose you know what I'm referring to. I'd prefer it if this didn't get like those threads. I'd like things to be more accepting of gay people, and less accepting of hate groups, I guess. Just a more inclusive group of people.

I think I've had that argument enough in other threads here for it to be a given. I'd like to hear other people's suggestions though.

What's your take?

i've not noticed a real showing of hate groups,... but i only follow a handful of threads. so i could be missing something. i thought all was pretty welcome to post here, and everyone get's ribbed over various reasons. not just their sexual preferences.

That's good. Can I take a guess and say you're straight, white, American, male, and probably live in a southern state? Possibly from a Christian background?

I'm not dismissing your view, but if that's roughly accurate, you might not notice stuff that other people do.

[riskllama]

i don't care if you're gay, sym - why the f*ck would i? i always assumed the typical CC user is straight, white with nerdish qualities aged 18-54. i also think that most of those types could care less about their opponents sexuality, ethnic background or political leanings. perhaps i am wrong about that...either way, meh. i simply don't have the time, energy or inclination to worry about what some gay dude who doesn't pay, much less play, on the site thinks about a lack of gay friendliness here. that being said, i have no problems with you and enjoy reading most of your posts. the gay stuff i just find exhausting, tho. sorry...*shrugs*

[WILLIAMS5232]

"more inclusive" how?

Hah, good question, I suppose you know what I'm referring to. I'd prefer it if this didn't get like those threads. I'd like things to be more accepting of gay people, and less accepting of hate groups, I guess. Just a more inclusive group of people.

I think I've had that argument enough in other threads here for it to be a given. I'd like to hear other people's suggestions though.

What's your take?

i've not noticed a real showing of hate groups,... but i only follow a handful of threads. so i could be missing something. i thought all was pretty welcome to post here, and everyone get's ribbed over various reasons. not just their sexual preferences.

That's good. Can I take a guess and say you're straight, white, American, male, and probably live in a southern state? Possibly from a Christian background?

I'm not dismissing your view, but if that's roughly accurate, you might not notice stuff that other people do.

well, i guess without not being as you described there's little chance i would ever understand. my only advice is don't worry about internet hate groups. or internet gay-bashers. i don't pay attention to internet red-neck bashers.

[Symmetry]

i don't care if you're gay, sym - why the f*ck would i? i always assumed the typical CC user is straight, white with nerdish qualities aged 18-54. i also think that most of those types could care less about their opponents sexuality, ethnic background or political leanings. perhaps i am wrong about that...either way, meh. i simply don't have the time, energy or inclination to worry about what some gay dude who doesn't pay, much less play, on the site thinks about a lack of gay friendliness here. that being said, i have no problems with you and enjoy reading most of your posts. the gay stuff i just find exhausting, tho. sorry...*shrugs*

I understand your point, I really do. I'm just not sure that you can do the same. You're from a different background to me, and, as you say, you expect people to come from a similar background.

But, as you say, there's stuff that you find exhausting if it's gay. That's difficult to deal with.

[Symmetry]

"more inclusive" how?

Hah, good question, I suppose you know what I'm referring to. I'd prefer it if this didn't get like those threads. I'd like things to be more accepting of gay people, and less accepting of hate groups, I guess. Just a more inclusive group of people.

I think I've had that argument enough in other threads here for it to be a given. I'd like to hear other people's suggestions though.

What's your take?

i've not noticed a real showing of hate groups,... but i only follow a handful of threads. so i could be missing something. i thought all was pretty welcome to post here, and everyone get's ribbed over various reasons. not just their sexual preferences.

That's good. Can I take a guess and say you're straight, white, American, male, and probably live in a southern state? Possibly from a Christian background?

I'm not dismissing your view, but if that's roughly accurate, you might not notice stuff that other people do.

well, i guess without not being as you described there's little chance i would ever understand. my only advice is don't worry about internet hate groups. or internet gay-bashers. i don't pay attention to internet red-neck bashers.

Well, like I said, I'm not trying to dismiss you, I'm trying to understand why my points don't bother you.

What did I get wrong?

[WILLIAMS5232]

"more inclusive" how?

Hah, good question, I suppose you know what I'm referring to. I'd prefer it if this didn't get like those threads. I'd like things to be more accepting of gay people, and less accepting of hate groups, I guess. Just a more inclusive group of people.

I think I've had that argument enough in other threads here for it to be a given. I'd like to hear other people's suggestions though.

What's your take?

i've not noticed a real showing of hate groups,... but i only follow a handful of threads. so i could be missing something. i thought all was pretty welcome to post here, and everyone get's ribbed over various reasons. not just their sexual preferences.

That's good. Can I take a guess and say you're straight, white, American, male, and probably live in a southern state? Possibly from a Christian background?

I'm not dismissing your view, but if that's roughly accurate, you might not notice stuff that other people do.

well, i guess without not being as you described there's little chance i would ever understand. my only advice is don't worry about internet hate groups. or internet gay-bashers. i don't pay attention to internet red-neck bashers.

Well, like I said, I'm not trying to dismiss you, I'm trying to understand why my points don't bother you.

What did I get wrong?

i'm afraid to engage you about it, mainly because i'm afraid you'll just say that i don't understand your points because i'm this way, or that way and you're this way or that way, and i'm just the person that you are describing and because of that, rather than understand why your points don't bother me, you'd just prefer to label me as a person that has no compassion and hates everyone that is not like me.

having said that, i'd just rather make a neutral blanket statement and post a funny video.

[Symmetry]

Ah, well, if you're worried that there might be criticism of your arguments, I can't guarantee approval. Sorry mate, if I think you don't understand something, I'll say so. I'll also say why though.

[WILLIAMS5232]

you might not notice stuff that other people do.

well, i said i don't notice too many hate groups, or attacks made to any certain group for that matter. i just see a bunch of child like bickering and people that try to be smart on the internet arguing stuff that they are interested about. i assume from your statement that there are several cases?

to make an extreme example, if someone says' "hey johnny, you're a sleezebag, and you sleep with animals because you have a blue pigment in your skin" ok, that's not a nice person to say that. personally i wouldn't respond. i would advise to not let your self be offended by that.
the person that says that, says it to get under someone's skin.

of course, as it should, the site guidelines include rules to keep statements like this to a minimum, it would also go a long way to realize how insignificant this statement is in the grand scheme of things. any grown man/woman that let's a game forum post get to them in a personal way shouldn't be reading game forum posts.

i know this isn't going to change your outlook, but this is how i see it. like the previous guy, i don't have all night to dwell on this, and i doubt you'll have much to add to sway my opinion about it. but from what you posted already, i think you knew my postion already. which is why i was ready to just leave it at that. anyway, i'm going to bed now. nighty nite

[jmyork82]

i don't care if you're gay, sym - why the f*ck would i? i always assumed the typical CC user is straight, white with nerdish qualities aged 18-54. i also think that most of those types could care less about their opponents sexuality, ethnic background or political leanings. perhaps i am wrong about that...either way, meh. i simply don't have the time, energy or inclination to worry about what some gay dude who doesn't pay, much less play, on the site thinks about a lack of gay friendliness here. that being said, i have no problems with you and enjoy reading most of your posts. the gay stuff i just find exhausting, tho. sorry...*shrugs*

I understand your point, I really do. I'm just not sure that you can do the same. You're from a different background to me, and, as you say, you expect people to come from a similar background.

But, as you say, there's stuff that you find exhausting if it's gay. That's difficult to deal with.

So what is your background sym? Where are you from? Ethnicity? Ect?

I would like to understand. Tell me about it, your past, your day to day struggles. How can other CC users understand you?

[owenshooter]

i don't care if you're gay, sym - why the f*ck would i? i always assumed the typical CC user is straight, white with nerdish qualities aged 18-54. i also think that most of those types could care less about their opponents sexuality, ethnic background or political leanings. perhaps i am wrong about that...either way, meh. i simply don't have the time, energy or inclination to worry about what some gay dude who doesn't pay, much less play, on the site thinks about a lack of gay friendliness here. that being said, i have no problems with you and enjoy reading most of your posts. the gay stuff i just find exhausting, tho. sorry...*shrugs*

I understand your point, I really do. I'm just not sure that you can do the same. You're from a different background to me, and, as you say, you expect people to come from a similar background.

But, as you say, there's stuff that you find exhausting if it's gay. That's difficult to deal with.

So what is your background sym? Where are you from? Ethnicity? Ect?

I would like to understand. Tell me about it, your past, your day to day struggles. How can other CC users understand you?

so, this Dr. Phil session is going to reverse the decline? am i missing something?-Jésus noir

[Symmetry]

i don't care if you're gay, sym - why the f*ck would i? i always assumed the typical CC user is straight, white with nerdish qualities aged 18-54. i also think that most of those types could care less about their opponents sexuality, ethnic background or political leanings. perhaps i am wrong about that...either way, meh. i simply don't have the time, energy or inclination to worry about what some gay dude who doesn't pay, much less play, on the site thinks about a lack of gay friendliness here. that being said, i have no problems with you and enjoy reading most of your posts. the gay stuff i just find exhausting, tho. sorry...*shrugs*

I understand your point, I really do. I'm just not sure that you can do the same. You're from a different background to me, and, as you say, you expect people to come from a similar background.

But, as you say, there's stuff that you find exhausting if it's gay. That's difficult to deal with.

So what is your background sym? Where are you from? Ethnicity? Ect?

I would like to understand. Tell me about it, your past, your day to day struggles. How can other CC users understand you?

Creepiest first date lines ever.

You are welcome to read most of my threads on site. If you click on my profile you can find a colourful history of posts illustrating my various interests.

If you turn up outside my house with a boombox though, I will have to call the police.

[jmyork82]

You're ducking the question.

[Symmetry]

You're ducking the question.

Questions.

And they were creepy.

[Arama86n]

@ the decline

My personal belief is that a big part of what killed this place was the enormous negativity that festered in the forum a few years back. You had about 15-20 people who did nothing but talked about how much it sucked, how the dice were soooo unfair, and complained about every single thing every owner has ever done.
I had to stop reading the forum myself for a year or two, because I couldn't stand that far more than half the threads in general discussion were bitching/moaning/complaining day after day week after week.

The whiners killed any sense of community, and thus crippled the site. Clans survived because they are self-reliant communities where people can go and get away from the moaners, have their own part of the forums etc. But the general community, the non-clan part, suffered a deep decline.

You can argue all day that it was this or that decision by owners/dev's that killed the site. But I've seen it all before on other gaming sites. After a few years, as the game develops, the old crowd turn sour, there are always people that whatever happens it is never good enough. They want to go back in time to the "golden era", or they want a wide variety of changes to improve the site. But whatever changes are made, there will always be someone bitching.

[owenshooter]

@ the decline

My personal belief is that a big part of what killed this place was the enormous negativity that festered in the forum a few years back. You had about 15-20 people who did nothing but talked about how much it sucked, how the dice were soooo unfair, and complained about every single thing every owner has ever done.
I had to stop reading the forum myself for a year or two, because I couldn't stand that far more than half the threads in general discussion were bitching/moaning/complaining day after day week after week.

The whiners killed any sense of community, and thus crippled the site. Clans survived because they are self-reliant communities where people can go and get away from the moaners, have their own part of the forums etc. But the general community, the non-clan part, suffered a deep decline.

You can argue all day that it was this or that decision by owners/dev's that killed the site. But I've seen it all before on other gaming sites. After a few years, as the game develops, the old crowd turn sour, there are always people that whatever happens it is never good enough. They want to go back in time to the "golden era", or they want a wide variety of changes to improve the site. But whatever changes are made, there will always be someone bitching.

that is possibly the single most ignorant thing that has been posted in this thread. you do realize that less than 1% of CC users ever visit the forums, right? so, 20 or so users posting their valid opinions, to less than 1% of CC members, somehow caused the site to fall from 30K to 7K users? that is just beyond ignorant and completely laughable. actually, your entire post is full of ignorance... i think it is more apropos to blame the demise on several things other than 20 members posting:

-the changing of the freestyle rules caused that entire community to vanish overnight.
-the change to speed games caused that entire community to vanish overnight.
-the change from Random.org to whatever it is CC is using now, continues to be complained about and is often cited by many members for their leaving.
-the removal of flame wars and the open war on the forum community by PAST mods/admins/ownership did far more to destroy the forum community that 20 or so people posting ever did. during that effort to "clean up" the forums for the rumored Hasbro sale, we saw many regular forum goers, pillars of our forum, run out of dodge by an overzealous bunch of wanna be sheriffs (how did that hasbro sale work out in the end?)...
-the foundry members elitist attitude and massive site flooding of sub-par maps and all the new settings also created a massive down tick in activity. people came to play RISK and they couldn't find a map or understand the settings and were openly farmed by players with little to no repercussions. the foundry is just about dead today, wonder why

as far as your clan world statement, that too is in decline. clan wars have been degraded to DIFFICULT MAP/FOG/TRENCH vs. DIFFICULT MAP/FOG/TRENCH, giving lesser players a chance at beating far more experienced and superior players. many clan members drifted away from the site and became disenchanted with the "new clan world." clan wars became MONTHS LONG boring games on these exact settings with little to no interest by the outside CC world. anyone remember a few years ago when clans would square off and a large portion of the site would follow the games, the clan war thread and weigh in on the smack talk between the clans? anyone remember clan war threads getting locked down because they were so heated? anyone remember top players going after each other in clan wars, and the buzz that created within the community?

your entire statement is a fanboy love letter and application to be a mod. it is just so inaccurate and there is no way you can prove that 20 people posting has been the reason for the site's plunge from 30K to 7K. there is literally no correlation. especially when most of what they posted was probably their valid opinion about things going on with the site, which you still obviously have ZERO KNOWLEDGE of... please put your blinders back on and continue to drink the Kool-Aid, you obviously can not handle the truth and are not capable of even FINDING THE TRUTH. CC's decline can be traced back to a few very bad key decisions that still reverberate within the site, to this day... good luck with that whole "head in the sand" thing, you seem to be doing quite well with it... the black jesus has spoken...-Jésus noir

p.s-if you think that 20 people posting "killed the community", you need to wake up and realize that the people behind the wheel back then killed the community.

[Donelladan]

-the change to speed games caused that entire community to vanish overnight.

First time I heard of it. What change has been made to speed games ?

as far as your clan world statement, that too is in decline. clan wars have been degraded to DIFFICULT MAP/FOG/TRENCH vs. DIFFICULT MAP/FOG/TRENCH, giving lesser players a chance at beating far more experienced and superior players. many clan members drifted away from the site and became disenchanted with the "new clan world." clan wars became MONTHS LONG boring games on these exact settings with little to no interest by the outside CC world. anyone remember a few years ago when clans would square off and a large portion of the site would follow the games, the clan war thread and weigh in on the smack talk between the clans? anyone remember clan war threads getting locked down because they were so heated? anyone remember top players going after each other in clan wars, and the buzz that created within the community?

I already explained you why this is wrong. Do you really have to use this argument again ?
The entire community never followed clan worlds ( anyway 1% only of CC members are on the forum so...).
Btw, may I know where you get your stats from ? Because 1% of CC members are maybe posting on the forum, but it doesn't mean that a much larger portion of the CC members are not reading those forum.

Concerning your opinion on the settings in the clan world, you are an old player. You are way too old. If we had politics on CC you'd be a member of the ultra conservative part of the republican party.
Fog and trench are extremely popular settings. Everyone use them, "lesser" players have no difficulty understanding either fog or trench.

And, as I told you before, trench games represent a minority in the games played in the clan world, a very small portion of the clans games are using trench. It is growing because trench is very popular, but I doubt we reached 20% of clan games using trench in the recent clan wars.

many clan members drifted away from the site and became disenchanted with the "new clan world."

Wtf ? Evidence of a higher decline in the clan world than in the general CC population please? I am 99% sure we have a smaller decline in CC clan world than in the overall CC population.
If your "many" refer to your old clanmates, please be aware they probably represent less than 1% of the clan players and therefore are definitely not representative.


I just can't accept your speaking ill of the clan world while you are not part of it at all, have no idea what's happening there, and especially because everything you are saying about clan world is wrong and biased. It is not because you only play no trench sunny game that everyone else like those. If we only had no trench sunny game here on CC I'd probably be gone since ages like many players would be. What make people come might be the wish to play a "standard" risk game, but what make them stay is definitely the richness of maps and settings available.


On your overall point, being it's not the forum that is responsible for the decline.
May I make you notice that you are contradicting yourself saying the forum has no influence, but making the removal of flam wars and the war on forum community one of the reason of the decline ?

But anyway, I think you're right, forum isn't the main reason people are leaving CC, and improvement should be made in the CC interface. Still, the forum is definitely not welcoming in general to new user, and old posters like you are one of the reason why the forum isn't welcoming.

[Arama86n]

@ owenshooter

Ignorant? Perhaps. All I know is that I know nothing.
I suppose the difference between us is that I am well aware when I am expressing my subjective opinion, where as you seem to think that everything you write is gospel.

-the changing of the freestyle rules caused that entire community to vanish overnight.

A valid point.

-the change to speed games caused that entire community to vanish overnight.

Which change are you talking about here?

-the change from Random.org to whatever it is CC is using now, continues to be complained about and is often cited by many members for their leaving.

I have never put much stock in the dice bitching personally. People complained before the change, and they complained after the change. People.. complain, period.

-the removal of flame wars and the open war on the forum community by PAST mods/admins/ownership did far more to destroy the forum community that 20 or so people posting ever did. during that effort to "clean up" the forums for the rumored Hasbro sale, we saw many regular forum goers, pillars of our forum, run out of dodge by an overzealous bunch of wanna be sheriffs (how did that hasbro sale work out in the end?)...

Oh come on... flame wars, when was that <2008?? A bloody eternity ago. Hardly of major relevance. This argument goes to show how much your personal preferences and history on the site colour your view of the sites history.

-the foundry members elitist attitude and massive site flooding of sub-par maps and all the new settings also created a massive down tick in activity. people came to play RISK and they couldn't find a map or understand the settings and were openly farmed by players with little to no repercussions. the foundry is just about dead today, wonder why

While I agree that more could have been done to give NR's an easier time in the beginning through programming and limiting their choice, funnelling them to easier maps etc, and that could have been done earlier, I can not understand why less maps would be preferred. Don't play the maps you don't like. Same line of thinking as FAMO.

you do realize that less than 1% of CC users ever visit the forums, right?

And how many played Freestyle-Speed that you love to go on about? <5%? Hardly the definitive reason for the sites decline either.

There is only one thing that is certain in this world Owen, constant change. Time to get used to it.
Things CHANGE, always. You choose how you see that change, what you do with it. Better/worse do not exist, they are subjective.

It's just my 5c, but it seems to me you live in the past, and drone on about the same old complaints year after year. Let it go bro, move on. The "good old days" aren't coming back.

[owenshooter]

@ owenshooter

Ignorant? Perhaps. All I know is that I know nothing.
I suppose the difference between us is that I am well aware when I am expressing my subjective opinion, where as you seem to think that everything you write is gospel.

-the changing of the freestyle rules caused that entire community to vanish overnight.

A valid point.

-the change to speed games caused that entire community to vanish overnight.

Which change are you talking about here?

-the change from Random.org to whatever it is CC is using now, continues to be complained about and is often cited by many members for their leaving.

I have never put much stock in the dice bitching personally. People complained before the change, and they complained after the change. People.. complain, period.

-the removal of flame wars and the open war on the forum community by PAST mods/admins/ownership did far more to destroy the forum community that 20 or so people posting ever did. during that effort to "clean up" the forums for the rumored Hasbro sale, we saw many regular forum goers, pillars of our forum, run out of dodge by an overzealous bunch of wanna be sheriffs (how did that hasbro sale work out in the end?)...

Oh come on... flame wars, when was that <2008?? A bloody eternity ago. Hardly of major relevance. This argument goes to show how much your personal preferences and history on the site colour your view of the sites history.

-the foundry members elitist attitude and massive site flooding of sub-par maps and all the new settings also created a massive down tick in activity. people came to play RISK and they couldn't find a map or understand the settings and were openly farmed by players with little to no repercussions. the foundry is just about dead today, wonder why

While I agree that more could have been done to give NR's an easier time in the beginning through programming and limiting their choice, funnelling them to easier maps etc, and that could have been done earlier, I can not understand why less maps would be preferred. Don't play the maps you don't like. Same line of thinking as FAMO.

you do realize that less than 1% of CC users ever visit the forums, right?

And how many played Freestyle-Speed that you love to go on about? <5%? Hardly the definitive reason for the sites decline either.

There is only one thing that is certain in this world Owen, constant change. Time to get used to it.
Things CHANGE, always. You choose how you see that change, what you do with it. Better/worse do not exist, they are subjective.

It's just my 5c, but it seems to me you live in the past, and drone on about the same old complaints year after year. Let it go bro, move on. The "good old days" aren't coming back.

-i agree with you on the dice. i haven't seen a change, because i don't use auto attack and i stop attacking when i get shitty dice. however, other members complain non-stop

-flame wars, i was not a fan of, but i recognized how important it was to the forums. when they removed it during the HASBRO CLENSE, it was a huge mistake and just the start of the demise of the forums. and yes, the former mods/admins/owners openly killed the forums. current team members have openly admitted it and they are working hard to reverse it. so, sorry, that has nothing to do with me or my "colouring" of the past... it is a fact.

-your claim that less than 5% played freestyle... um, you do remember when freestyle before the change, right? there would literally be hundreds of games waiting and filling at an insane pace/rate that wouldn't happen today, even if you gave every freemium access to unlimited speed and/or freestyle games. freestyle was as big as speed games, freestyle speed was the icing on the CC cake. it certainly was bigger than team games. you absolutely can not deny that. there are like 2 million finished freestyle games and that setting has been dead for almost 5 years...

anyway, thanks for the responses!! the black jesus is happy you stood up and took a swing!!-Jésus noir

[IcePack]

Wait so if "only 1% use the forums" is your argument against Aram, but in the next breathe declare flame wars is a major part of the decline. Doesn't that mean that even if the site deleted the forums entirely it would only affect 1% of the site population?
How can some forum change be such a drastic hit to the site in one instance but such a minimal factor in another?