Conquer Club

This is for the Community Opinion piece for Conquer Club News.

The Map Foundry is a forum here on Conquer Club (viewforum.php?f=10) and lately there hasn't been quite as much activity around the map-making forum. What are your feelings concerning the forum? Do you have any ideas to make it more interesting or to get the community more involved in the process? Tell us!!

Please vote, post and explain your opinion!!


-Insom

PS - Please don't spam this thread with anything that is not relevant to the topic, thank you

I began to go to the Foundry after the Classic map number highlight, polka-dot-nightmare debacle. - I felt it only fair to try to participate if i expected to be able to comment on anything they did!

I tried to help out a bit with comments on the gorgeous Archipelago map. (heheh it fills me with pride that Zeak and MJ were kind enough to even put my name in the corner far too generous by half!!)

I was since utterly put off going to the foundry by the Brazil revamp debacle and am unlikely to ever return. I hasten to add that RJ still, through it all, managed somehow to make a magnificent and irresistible map.

The Foundry is a place of wonder and creative genius... not sure they should ever do revamps though ...

I pop in every now and again and I've posted a few times. I get a little intimidated when I see 30 pages of posts though. I'm not always sure how to participate in the dialogue. Often the conversation has already progressed so far that I feel I have nothing useful to contribute. On the flip side, sometimes I do feel I have something useful to contribute, like constructive criticism on geography, but the map is too far along to make changes like that.

I am very interested to see how this poll develops...

There is currently 7 votes, just 1 for each selection except one with none...

Robinette wrote:I am very interested to see how this poll develops...

There is currently 7 votes, just 1 for each selection except one with none...

"there is currently ... " ? is that correct?

i am trying to make a map, but i feel that nbody really cares about the foundry.

one of the requirements to get out of the draft room is community support. if nobody cares, it wont go through.

I have heard people say good stuff about the map, but they never post it.

ive tried everything from talking about it in-game, to going to live chat and advertising every day, I have even pm'd all of my friends just so i could get more responses.

i think it would be great to have advertisements for maps in the draft room, since those are the ones that need to most attention.

sinctheassasin wrote:i am trying to make a map, but i feel that nbody really cares about the foundry.

one of the requirements to get out of the draft room is community support. if nobody cares, it wont go through.

I have heard people say good stuff about the map, but they never post it.

ive tried everything from talking about it in-game, to going to live chat and advertising every day, I have even pm'd all of my friends just so i could get more responses.

i think it would be great to have advertisements for maps in the draft room, since those are the ones that need to most attention.

i find that your sig is the best advertisment for maps. .. see if you can link the thread so it goes there by clicking the actual image already in your sig. ... i was shown how to do this (my sig goes to a thread if you click it) and i'll help if you like.

InsomniaRed inspired me to go the Drafting Room and I commented on three maps just now. Going to DR looking for a place to contribute made a lot more sense than trying to find threads on the main page of Map Foundry to chime in on.

i think it would be great if more people would comment on the maps in the drafting room

As i am making my first map its easy to over look a lot of little nitpick and even obvious problems and for the community to see these in the early stages and point them out it helps alot

i know that some people just don't want to reply because a) they don't want to upset the map maker b) don't like the map
if its a) thats understand able but any comment is better than none and if the maker has a reasonable reason not to change it , its nothing personal and if the reason is b) tell the maker what you don't like if its a small problem it might improve it and you have helped alot.

sinctheassasin wrote:i am trying to make a map, but i feel that nbody really cares about the foundry.

one of the requirements to get out of the draft room is community support. if nobody cares, it wont go through.

I have heard people say good stuff about the map, but they never post it.

ive tried everything from talking about it in-game, to going to live chat and advertising every day, I have even pm'd all of my friends just so i could get more responses.

i think it would be great to have advertisements for maps in the draft room, since those are the ones that need to most attention.

If you cannot gather support for a map through the means you have listed then it probably means it is not a map that people care to have added. Maps have to appeal to a large group of people to actually gather support, and since we have well over a hundred maps in play there aren't too many niches left to fill.

sully800 wrote:

sinctheassasin wrote:i am trying to make a map, but i feel that nbody really cares about the foundry.

one of the requirements to get out of the draft room is community support. if nobody cares, it wont go through.

I have heard people say good stuff about the map, but they never post it.

ive tried everything from talking about it in-game, to going to live chat and advertising every day, I have even pm'd all of my friends just so i could get more responses.

i think it would be great to have advertisements for maps in the draft room, since those are the ones that need to most attention.

If you cannot gather support for a map through the means you have listed then it probably means it is not a map that people care to have added. Maps have to appeal to a large group of people to actually gather support, and since we have well over a hundred maps in play there aren't too many niches left to fill.

that's partially true sully, but there is a massive element of cult following when it comes to maps. If DiM were to walk in with a new map idea, almost any map idea, he would have a comparatively large group of people instantly there to bounce off. (perhaps to his distraction) that is because he is a superb map maker of course but it is illusory to think that new guys get adequate, automatic support.

But my point is, the first map for any map-maker is usually a lonely exercise in bloody-minded patience and self-motivation. - I believe that goes for even the most innovative of map concepts.
If you do not have the determination to make your fist map over a protracted period, you will never see it grow to adult-hood, no matter how good it is in embryo.
The new map maker is lucky if they get one dedicated commentator to bounce off. If they get that they have far more chance to follow-through to finish. - that is why i think the Foundry should put a buddy system into operation where map-makers or frequent visitors are allotted an apprentice or twinned map which they help advise on.

jiminski wrote:that's partially true sully, but there is a massive element of cult following when it comes to maps. If DiM were to walk in with a new map idea, almost any map idea, he would have a comparatively large group of people instantly there to bounce off. (perhaps to his distraction) that is because he is a superb map maker of course but it is illusory to think that new guys get adequate, automatic support.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here jim. That may seem the case but from an inside perspective I have noticed that probably everyone who has this opinion that the foundry is cultist place where you get better attention is your established tends to come from people whos map idea or graphical skills suck.

Time and time again I could list off plenty of quenched maps map by new map makers that had support from the start because they were graphically competant and their ideas worked. The most recent example being killing.44's greenland map, older examples include Benny and snap dodles NYC map, thenobodies and pikkos oceania map, archipejago by zeak and Mjinga, MrBenns europa map (his conduct, attitude and ability in this development helped him earn his CA position), t-o-m's madagascar but probably one of the best senarios was wcaclimbing and his oasis map. He gained huge support because his idea was innovative and exciting with the graphical skills to move his map forward. That is more than I can say for all the failed map makers who moan that the foundry is elitist.

The reason established map makers gain more support, recognition and help is because they got themselfs established by being good at making maps.

gimil wrote:

jiminski wrote:that's partially true sully, but there is a massive element of cult following when it comes to maps. If DiM were to walk in with a new map idea, almost any map idea, he would have a comparatively large group of people instantly there to bounce off. (perhaps to his distraction) that is because he is a superb map maker of course but it is illusory to think that new guys get adequate, automatic support.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here jim. That may seem the case but from an inside perspective I have noticed that probably everyone who has this opinion that the foundry is cultist place where you get better attention is your established tends to come from people whos map idea or graphical skills suck.

Time and time again I could list off plenty of quenched maps map by new map makers that had support from the start because they were graphically competant and their ideas worked. The most recent example being killing.44's greenland map, older examples include Benny and snap dodles NYC map, thenobodies and pikkos oceania map, archipejago by zeak and Mjinga, MrBenns europa map (his conduct, attitude and ability in this development helped him earn his CA position), t-o-m's madagascar but probably one of the best senarios was wcaclimbing and his oasis map. He gained huge support because his idea was innovative and exciting with the graphical skills to move his map forward. That is more than I can say for all the failed map makers who moan that the foundry is elitist.

The reason established map makers gain more support, recognition and help is because they got themselfs established by being good at making maps.

heh what do you know, ya bampot!

yeas i did not mean to overstress the cult thing, i did mean to stress the fact that determination is the most vital thing as the start is very lonely until you get a reputation of sorts.
In essence sully, though be it unintentionally, just told the lad above that his map is crap and did not get the following as it is crap. I am telling him he may still be able to make it work if he has the determination to get a couple of people in to help him make it better.
I also don't agree that the map needs mass appeal as he said.. it really just needs a commenter with dedication too.

I can't speak for all but regarding your examples above, i have first hand experience of Archipelago and thank god MJ had Zeak and vice versa because if they had not they may have been put off entirely before they even got started on that one.

I was not intending to make anyone defensive, (you cartographers are so highly strung! ) however i do think a 'buddy system' and channeling of people to bounce-off would be an improvement.

InsomniaRed wrote:This is for the Community Opinion piece for Conquer Club News.

The Map Foundry is a forum here on Conquer Club (viewforum.php?f=10) and lately there hasn't been quite as much activity around the map-making forum. What are your feelings concerning the forum? Do you have any ideas to make it more interesting or to get the community more involved in the process? Tell us!!

Please vote, post and explain your opinion!!

PS - Please don't spam this thread with anything that is not relevant to the topic, thank you

Since you asked for the explanation, here goes...

My Vote: "I've tried to go in before to add some ideas but I didn't feel very welcomed since I wasn't a regular."

I went into the foundry with an idea after having been told that I was essentially wasting my time because the Foundry wouldn't be interested in helping me develop it if it wasn't "one of their own". Being the stubborn ass that I am, I ignored that piece of advice. I shouldn't have, because I found the Foundry to be cliqueish and insular. My idea (in the Map Ideas/Suggestions sub-forum) was held to a far different standard than many of the other ideas in that same sub-forum. In fact, I was FOE'd by none other than oaktown for SIMPLY SUGGESTING (admittedly in a sarcastic manner) that HIS idea should be held to the same standard that mine was. Apparently, that was quite the offense!

Now, that put aside, I did get one good response to my idea that was absolutely a worthy post (thank you, yeti_c), so don't get the impression that I only received snobbery...that's not the case. But there was enough of it.

There's simply no question in my mind as to how non-regulars are welcomed by the majority in the Foundry.

gimil wrote:

jiminski wrote:that's partially true sully, but there is a massive element of cult following when it comes to maps. If DiM were to walk in with a new map idea, almost any map idea, he would have a comparatively large group of people instantly there to bounce off. (perhaps to his distraction) that is because he is a superb map maker of course but it is illusory to think that new guys get adequate, automatic support.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here jim. That may seem the case but from an inside perspective I have noticed that probably everyone who has this opinion that the foundry is cultist place where you get better attention is your established tends to come from people whos map idea or graphical skills suck.

If that were the case, then I should have been able to get plenty of people to tell me my map idea sucked. But I couldn't even get that! Perhaps being someone that's "on the inside", you're no longer able to see the perspective of the new map-idea-submitter?

what a shock.. another foundry question from the foundry heavy newsletter that is still stickied down the GD's throat... even more shocking, if you read the thread, you can already see what the foundry is unable to see. what is that? why it is so few venture back into the foundry after visiting it at all... wouldn't shock me at all if Insomnia were asked to pose this question in the first place, by one of the foundry guys running the show at the COMMUNITY newsletter...-0

I retired from mapmaking, and there are too many maps going on for me to bother to comment anymore.

Early on looks like what I feel I am not alone in. I see it happen when I wander in there. Person A makes a comment (A regular) People praise him and say thanks. B comes along and is told "Don't you read anything? That was mentioned 2 pages ago! Also your second idea is rubbish!" With that that said person is turned off never to return, so the same people comment on map after map...

Bruceswar wrote:Early on looks like what I feel I am not alone in. I see it happen when I wander in there. Person A makes a comment (A regular) People praise him and say thanks. B comes along and is told "Don't you read anything? That was mentioned 2 pages ago! Also your second idea is rubbish!" With that that said person is turned off never to return, so the same people comment on map after map...

I see this alot as well. Commonly thou comments suck as 'great idea, can't wait to play!' are ultimalty harmful towards new map makers, especially since most of them come from non regulars who pop in once say 'wow' and leave again ultimatly contributing nothing. These new map makers get a false sense of doing well when ultimatly 9/10 new map idea either have a) a crap idea to begin with, or b) skills that arn't good enought to get a map finished. Unfortuantly most times it is the established foudnry members that are left to give out the 'tough love' as it is commonly refered to.

The foundry has its share of problems, but elitism isn't one of them.

I beg to differ a bit. "elitism" - It can be defined in many ways. Weather it be a new map maker or someone just passing by with a comment. People in the foundry must remember everybody has to start somewhere. Personally I think the foundry process is too anal over small details which 99.9% of the people will not care about. A map can be hung up for months trying to fix small things, which in the grand scheme of it all will be worthless. I mean who cares if border A is 2 pixels too long or that the mini map is not 100% like the larger map. There are a million and one things that could be said about this process, but I think we would be splitting hairs. Personally I find the foundry pretty backwards.

I definitely agree that the process is currently too long and tedious. Looking through a lot of maps you can see that the second or third draft look VERY similar to the final version. Of course that's not always true but it happens way more than I would have expected since those maps are still hung up in the process for ~6 months.

Unfortunately I don't have a way to fix that problem fairly. I would certainly prefer polished maps over maps being rushed through development. The main thing that would help are more comments from more people, but the problems with that have already been listed in the thread. People pop in without reading the thread and suggest things that have been discussed plenty. Or they make actual good suggestions and yet don't stick around to actually help with the development for more than a single conversation.

Bruceswar wrote:I beg to differ a bit. "elitism" - It can be defined in many ways. Weather it be a new map maker or someone just passing by with a comment. People in the foundry must remember everybody has to start somewhere. Personally I think the foundry process is too anal over small details which 99.9% of the people will not care about. A map can be hung up for months trying to fix small things, which in the grand scheme of it all will be worthless. I mean who cares if border A is 2 pixels too long or that the mini map is not 100% like the larger map. There are a million and one things that could be said about this process, but I think we would be splitting hairs. Personally I find the foundry pretty backwards.

Anal is probably correct, but not in a bad way. It is the 'anal' nature that helps it produce high quality maps, maps that are much better than those on any of CC's competition sites. In all honesty thou bruce, I don't think their has ever been a map held up for such nit pick issue such as 'mini map is not 100% like the larger map' and if it is help up it is probably because the map maker is to stuborn to take the 3minutes it takes to make changes to such small issues.

This is how the foundry has evolved, no one decided that nit pick of issues that 99.9% of people don't care about it just grew as part of the process. So I don't see increased quality by being anal as the foundry going backwards.

sully800 wrote:Looking through a lot of maps you can see that the second or third draft look VERY similar to the final version.

This can be a frustration, in general most time spend on a map tends to be on fixing gameplay rather than graphics. I would like to see the foudny process tightened up and speed up but I can't really thing of a viable solution without reducing the quality and unfortuantly their isn't the good quality man power available to cover the amount of maps to give more feedback to speed up the process.

gimil wrote:Unfortuantly most times it is the established foudnry members that are left to give out the 'tough love' as it is commonly refered to.

The foundry has its share of problems, but elitism isn't one of them.

are you kidding me? where was the tough love with maps like puget sound, das schloB, WWII Europe, battle for iraq, city mogul, forbidden city and wales? all of those maps seemingly would be better had they spent more time in the foundry and had received more community input on game play, etc... it is the foundry "community" that drives away fresh thoughts, fresh input, and the few people that are intelligent enough to actually give some type/level of different opinion.

the foundry does have it's share of problems and believe me, elitism IS one of them. read the posts. these people are not new members with thin skins. some of these people are members with valid opinions, above average intelligence and something to contribute to the foundry. if you don't think that elitism is NOR one of the foundry problems, you should take a step back and try to look at it all with fresh eyes...

i appreciate all the work that is done in the foundry. i understand it is a very difficult and tiresome process. i know the creators of the maps don't get paid. blah, blah, blah... but the foundry is not a very inviting place. why on earth do you think the CC NEWSLETTER, which is staffed by mostly foundry people, and foundry heavy on the news, is posted here in the GD?!! to try and get people to read more about the foundry and to follow what is going on in there! it is transparent, it is kind of funny, and it even seems to not be driving the traffic to the foundry (why else would we have another foundry question floating about in the GD under the guise of a Newsletter Question/Piece?).

i would suggest that those of you in the foundry that are being so defensive within this thread, just start to read the post and stop defending them. i thought this was about opinions and not a debate. if you want a debate, start a thread in the foundry asking why people avoid the foundry. if this is for the newsletter, let people share their opinions and take it with a grain of salt, you may learn something...

i think the foundry is a really wonderful place that is fun to visit and poke around. but the regulars seem to drive fresh faces away in droves. that is my opinion. deal with it.-0

A debate is simply a conflict of opinions owen so a debate will simple give red more opinions to use. It also isn't because the CC newsletter is 'Foundry heavy' that this community opinion is about the foundry. There is absolutly no discussion on what gets put forward for this article so red has FULL autonomy over what she wants the theme of her article to be.

Most of the people who I would say are 'elite' have opinions and attitude that are perfect for the foundry.

RJbeals
Widowmakers
cairnswk
oaktown
MrBenn
Iancanton
tacktix
wcaclimbing

to name but a few. I would take any feedbackfrom these guys over almost anyone else because they know what they are taking about and above all else they always communicate their point approriatly. If a new map maker has a crap map/crap skills their is two distinct paths that can been took:

1. Some has to tell them that the idea sucks and that their time will be better spent on an idea that is more likely to work. This leads many people to get pissy and leave, or

2. You let then get on with it and they complain they don't get enought attention and that the foundry is elitist.

As you see it is a visous circle.

There are people that do make the foundry unpleasant but when I was CA anyone who was unpleasant to new members always had me harrasing their inbox telling them what is and isn't approripate. But these people that are unpleasant arn't part of the 'elite'.

The most annoying part of this is all the people getting on their high horse that the foundry has all these problems. Even thou the rest of these forums are full of trolls, flamers and people who push the limits, alot of the time for the sake of being annoying. Most people in the foundry only aim to contibute to this site.

The CC Newsletter is posted in GD because at the moment it is the best place for it be, in the future there may be an alternate place for it to reside, but right now that is the best place for it to be.

The CC Newsletter and Staff was put together long before several of the staff became foundry assistants, the newsletter's purpose is not to get people into the foundry, but to get people involved in several areas of the site, and to provide news from several areas of the forum and the site as a whole. More often than not, the most news comes out of the foundry as there is a constant flow of new maps for people to play.

For the record, this community opinion question was requested by Andy and is aimed at getting a feel of what the community at large thinks of the Foundry, and that might allow Foundry Staff to understand why people are less active in there.

The point of this thread is to get the opinion of the community, in terms of what they like/dislike and what Foundry team can possibly do to improve the Foundry process and make it easier for newcomers to get involved in the process.

Personally i can't think of anything that can be done to improve the process. The reason people get frustrated with the process of trying to create a map, is in the most part because they don't have the graphic ability, they havn't refined their graphic ability or their map idea is just not appealing to the community. Trust me there are a lot of ideas that should have just stayed in OP's head. I will be the first to admit that i was once like that, i posted some stupid ideas, i had a few goes at making a map and they all failed. Each time i tried, my skills got a little better and i started to think of some good ideas and hey presto now WWII:Poland is almost in the Final Forge. I think perserverance is the key, don't let other "regulars" drive you out. If it's input you want to give try picking a promising map that you like in the Drafting Room and get on board with it, provide feedback and be helpful all the way to Quenchville.

People have to be honest with themselves though, there has to be some kind of way to tell the maker of a crappy map that they aren't going to make it (It's better than letting them fume in the drafting room because their map isn't moving forward). In order to keep the high quality of the maps on this site, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Let's keep this about the Foundry and not about the newsletter shall we?

--samuelc812