Conquer Club

Hi,
For those of you who don't know, I am a foundry reporter for the Conquer Club newsletter. For past articles I have written, I have PMed people about their thoughts and used their quotes in the article. Instead of doing that, I figured I would create a thread about it, and let people discuss things, so that I can get quotes and opinions for an article about how people are receiving the changes in the foundry.

Some questions to start you off:
Do you think that maps will progress faster through the foundry now?
Do you think maps are more likely to be commented on and seen with the new setup?
What do you think about having to get your idea approved before moving into the "real" foundry rooms?
How do you think these changes will alter the perception of the foundry?
What effect will they have on interactions between people in the foundry?
Will they cause you to go into the foundry more?

Permit me to reorder your questions a bit.

captainwalrus wrote:Do you think maps are more likely to be commented on and seen with the new setup?

Possibly. I have noticed that the two Workshops and the Final Forge now have a quite manageable number of topics. Formerly, I would lose track of some topics that I had been observing silently. (Those that I have commented on, I can find via "View your posts".)

captainwalrus wrote:What do you think about having to get your idea approved before moving into the "real" foundry rooms?

This is not very different to the old "Advanced Draft" stamp, but it fits well with the division of the Foundry into rooms for different stages of development, so I like the concept. Also, the Design Brief goes a long way towards forcing the mapmakers to create what can be the basis of a decent first post for their map discussion topic, which is very important.

captainwalrus wrote:How do you think these changes will alter the perception of the foundry?

I regret to say that although these changes will help things in the Foundry, they are unlikely to be noticed significantly by the wider community. Unless the new organization improves things enough that the overall atmosphere of the Foundry changes, it is unlikely to affect the perception of the Foundry one bit.

captainwalrus wrote:What effect will they have on interactions between people in the foundry?

By segregating the map discussion topics based on the type of comments being solicited, it should be easier for people in the Foundry to find places where they can make positive contributions (even with negative feedback).

captainwalrus wrote:Do you think that maps will progress faster through the foundry now?

Perhaps not faster, but with the new schedule, more predictably.

I personally like almost all the changes, but the Melting pot is a real mess... It's real hard to find anything from there, with all the ideas and working drafts on the same forum.

Some might argue that this won't be a problem since the design briefs should be able to move the maps that are being developed quite fast into the workshops... but, there's the 2 map limit, which may force some maps to be held behind in the Melting pot while they "wait their turn" ...

A solution might be to not include maps already in the final forge in the 2 map rule. So that when one map gets close to quenching it would be allowed to bring another map forward from the melting pot.

Another solution for the huge crowdedness and messiness of melting pot would be to sticky threads that have design briefs submitted, but I'm not sure how the foundry mods like this idea... Also it would be harder for new mapmakers to get their ideas out there.

However, overall, I like the changes. I'm just bitching about the few things that I find a bit iffy. But the lack of more things to bitch about shows how good these changes are

As for the questions:

Do you think that maps will progress faster through the foundry now?

For the first parts, they should. But I don't believe the changes will affect the final forge or beta periods very much.

Do you think maps are more likely to be commented on and seen with the new setup?

Like ender said. I doubt it will affect the average person's view of the foundry one way or another...

What do you think about having to get your idea approved before moving into the "real" foundry rooms?

It's better than the old system, where maps would not move at all...

How do you think these changes will alter the perception of the foundry?

I don't know. Probably not much, at least not directly. Although if the foundry starts to work smoother now it might cut back on complaints, which might improve the atmosphere, which might attract more people to drop by or encourage more people to stay...

What effect will they have on interactions between people in the foundry?

See above.

Apart from splitting up the graphics and gameplay forums, basically there is no change.
The foundry is still as slow as ever.

I think everyone's been hood-winked.

cairnswk wrote:Apart from splitting up the graphics and gameplay forums, basically there is no change.
The foundry is still as slow as ever.

I think everyone's been hood-winked.

Basically, what he said. Apparently there's a 'fortnightly review' in which the mods review everything in the two main forums and crit or stamp. I mean, two weeks? I was given a laundry list of things to do, of which were done within 3 days, and now there's an extra 1.5 week wait? Kind of ridiculous if you ask me.

Industrial Helix wrote:

cairnswk wrote:Apart from splitting up the graphics and gameplay forums, basically there is no change.
The foundry is still as slow as ever.

I think everyone's been hood-winked.

Basically, what he said. Apparently there's a 'fortnightly review' in which the mods review everything in the two main forums and crit or stamp. I mean, two weeks? I was given a laundry list of things to do, of which were done within 3 days, and now there's an extra 1.5 week wait? Kind of ridiculous if you ask me.

I'm kinda thinking that it is even slower now. Maybe a weekly review would be better than a fortnight!

I just think it'd be about time to start moving maps ahead from the Melting pot...


As for maps in the workshops, I personally think the system could be modified a bit:

Let the moderators give the laundry lists to mapmakers, but scrap that "every two weeks" system, instead, let the mapmakers themselves notify the moderators when they think they have fixed everything that needs to be fixed. To make it easier to moderators, let's say that there needs to be at least a week of time for possible feedback, suggestions and criticisms, in between giving the "laundry list" and the notification. Then if the moderator still thinks there are things that need to be fixed (based on community feedback of course) he can give another laundry list and the cycle repeats itself.

This would ensure efficiency, while respecting the individual working speed of each mapmaker, and not put a too high burden on the shoulders of the moderators.

natty_dread wrote:I just think it'd be about time to start moving maps ahead from the Melting pot...


As for maps in the workshops, I personally think the system could be modified a bit:

Let the moderators give the laundry lists to mapmakers, but scrap that "every two weeks" system, instead, let the mapmakers themselves notify the moderators when they think they have fixed everything that needs to be fixed. To make it easier to moderators, let's say that there needs to be at least a week of time for possible feedback, suggestions and criticisms, in between giving the "laundry list" and the notification. Then if the moderator still thinks there are things that need to be fixed (based on community feedback of course) he can give another laundry list and the cycle repeats itself.

This would ensure efficiency, while respecting the individual working speed of each mapmaker, and not put a too high burden on the shoulders of the moderators.

What he said!! Great idea!

isaiah40 wrote:

natty_dread wrote:I just think it'd be about time to start moving maps ahead from the Melting pot...


As for maps in the workshops, I personally think the system could be modified a bit:

Let the moderators give the laundry lists to mapmakers, but scrap that "every two weeks" system, instead, let the mapmakers themselves notify the moderators when they think they have fixed everything that needs to be fixed. To make it easier to moderators, let's say that there needs to be at least a week of time for possible feedback, suggestions and criticisms, in between giving the "laundry list" and the notification. Then if the moderator still thinks there are things that need to be fixed (based on community feedback of course) he can give another laundry list and the cycle repeats itself.

This would ensure efficiency, while respecting the individual working speed of each mapmaker, and not put a too high burden on the shoulders of the moderators.

What he said!! Great idea!

Yes, but this only speeds things up if the mapmaker can do the laundry lickety-split. If the mapmaker takes a week to post updates, there still needs to be a week for the Foundry at large to review and comment before bringing the moderators back in: voila, a fortnight.

If a moderator does a sweep, and then some mapmakers are super quick, and some aren't, the poor mod gets bugged at different times, and his hopes for a real life vanish like a smoke ring on a windy day. (I will try to remember this if and when I get a map in here and find myself waiting for a stamp.)

There are still only so many pairs of hands to go around - both nobodies and I have been tied up with real life over the past few weeks... It's bad timing I know, but some things are more important than Conquer Club

MrBenn wrote: some things are more important than Conquer Club

Blasphemy!!!

OK I'll bite my tongue... just when I get to complain the maps in Melting pot aren't moving here comes Mr.Benn and saves the day. Excellent work.

Industrial Helix wrote:

cairnswk wrote:Apart from splitting up the graphics and gameplay forums, basically there is no change.
The foundry is still as slow as ever.

I think everyone's been hood-winked.

Basically, what he said. Apparently there's a 'fortnightly review' in which the mods review everything in the two main forums and crit or stamp. I mean, two weeks? I was given a laundry list of things to do, of which were done within 3 days, and now there's an extra 1.5 week wait? Kind of ridiculous if you ask me.

Don't forget that part of the process is community feedback. The reviews just point out what we see as needing improvement. The improvements need to be checked too, we'll do it, and most importantly the community will during the 2 weeks between reviews.

Personally, I won't say that stamping will ONLY occur during the review. Perhaps just a couple of little improvements might stand between a map and the Forge and once completed everyone that comments gives the thumbs up, I'll look at the map and confer with the rest of the team.... then the stamp will drop and the map will be on its way. BUT that's a lot of steps. I hope once maps start cycling through each stage of the Foundry at a regular pace you'll see the process is better and faster. Right now we've got a lot of maps that have been in there place for a long time and when that review list comes down and says, "work on these things and we'll look again in 2 weeks." That isn't all that is being done, and I know it's gotta be hard to hear the words, "WAIT" again, but I promise it is better!

I don't know if this is exactly what this thread aims to answer, but I didn't think it was worth making a new topic about.

I posted some highly critical comments in pre-redeployment foundry, and at least from an outsider perspective, I am so far VERY impressed.

The divisions to gameplay and graphics make sense to me, and make it easier for me to know what I am looking at, and what the map maker wants to hear commented on. The only problem is that sometimes I think gameplay and graphics are a bit intertwined.

As for the speed, I don't really make maps so no comments from me, but I do like the idea of a guaranteed review every two weeks. I think this consistency is great for the foundry. Also, I think it will, eventually, be helpful to map makers.

But the other thing, is that so far at least, the community aspect of the foundry seems to be back. I know I had a lot to say about this before, and some people gave me advice which I have followed (Specifically, follow more maps, which I now do!) but I am starting to really enjoy coming here. Also, so far I like that when I come here, I know where to find the newer maps, since I like to comment on those the most.

And I think currently there are some amazing ideas going around. I think there is an emphasis on developing TOP QUALITY CC maps that people want, and this site needs. Before, I felt like at times people were churning out new versions of similar maps, and currently I see cool ideas and good amounts of movement.

Again, this is my sort of outsider view, but I just wanted to stop by and tip my hat to those that made this happen, as well as the foundry community that continues to make my CC experience better.

Bravo

-Snowman

SuicidalSnowman wrote:The divisions to gameplay and graphics make sense to me, and make it easier for me to know what I am looking at, and what the map maker wants to hear commented on. The only problem is that sometimes I think gameplay and graphics are a bit intertwined.

Yes this argument had been postulated pre-split of gameplay/graphics... however - I personally felt that a lot of maps were getting by with graphics alone and then gameplay modified to fit the graphics...

However - games live and die by their gameplay - therefore I couldn't give 2 shits about how a map looks as long as it plays well... there are numerous talented artists here that will polish a map with great gameplay... however - there are plenty of artists here that can also put lipstick on a pig... I only wish that all games (outside of CC) went through this process of refining gameplay before being pretty.

I do agree that some parts of the gameplay (such as legibility and understandability) can be changed by the graphics - but I think that these features should be concentrated on in the Graphics Workshop.

Therefore - I think the split is great - not only because it makes it more likely for less GFX minded people to be able to make a map (like me)... the only reason "Poker Club" & "Land and Sea" are maps - is because they were gameplayed - before they were prettied... this merely formalises that.

C.

PS - of course though this brings me back to my only argument that I've ever had with CC - I do not hold the copyright to Poker Club...

yeti_c wrote:...can also put lipstick on a pig...

Now that's one i really like

cairnswk wrote:

yeti_c wrote:...can also put lipstick on a pig...

Now that's one i really like

I originally wrote "polish a turd" - but decided to tweak it slightly!!!

C.

yeti_c wrote:

cairnswk wrote:

yeti_c wrote:...can also put lipstick on a pig...

Now that's one i really like

I originally wrote "polish a turd" - but decided to tweak it slightly!!!

C.

Mmmm. i wonder who that was aimed at...i wonder if it was me?

Probably me... yeti has never commented on my maps so he probably doesn't like them...

cairnswk wrote:Mmmm. i wonder who that was aimed at...i wonder if it was me?

Not aimed at anyone... - You know that I love a lot of your maps Cairns.

C.

Since captainwalrus has edited the original post, I think the new question I have not answered is this:

captainwalrus wrote:Will [the changes] cause you to go into the foundry more?

I frankly don't see how that could be possible.

It is a very slow process and with the extra step added it seems even slower. This may be one reason that many do not go in there much, seems to take way too long and many may be impatient. I am not saying it is good or not good, what I am saying is it takes forever and some just give up, that is not good.

A lot of maps have been moved since the foundry reopened actually... And it's only been what, less than a month. If you compare it to the amount of maps that got moved in a month under the old system... The new system does seem somewhat faster.

And there actually is no "extra step". The total amount of forums to go through is the same:

Old system: Map ideas > drafting room > main foundry > final forge = 4 forums

New system: Melting pot > GP workshop > GFX workshop > final forge = 4 forums

natty_dread wrote:A lot of maps have been moved since the foundry reopened actually... And it's only been what, less than a month. If you compare it to the amount of maps that got moved in a month under the old system... The new system does seem somewhat faster.

And there actually is no "extra step". The total amount of forums to go through is the same:

Old system: Map ideas > drafting room > main foundry > final forge = 4 forums

New system: Melting pot > GP workshop > GFX workshop > final forge = 4 forums

The only difference besides the names of the sub forums is, you now need to go through GP first, and then on to GFX. Other than that, natty is right. There are still the same amount of steps.

Personally I have hit the pause button on all of my projects. Sooner or later I will dip my toes back in, and re-launch a project or two.

porkenbeans wrote:Personally I have hit the pause button on all of my projects.

To quote someone else - does that mean that changes have been a success?!

C.