Conquer Club

We knew there would be those clans that resented us for being the newcomer on the clan scene and daring to think we could hang with them. We knew if we did beat anyone, they might be very pissed off that we had the audacity to actually be proud of our accomplishment

still it is a shame that to be successful, one must endure these types of insults and filth.

Donelladan wrote:I've no idea why you speak about merger in your 1st paragraph. What are you speaking about there ?
I spoke of this in an effort to partially describe the daunting task of competing against clans who were strong contenders by themselves...but then felt they needed even more of an edge to compete....so decided to merge with another already successful clan to create a "superpower". TOP is not only new....but we are also NOT a hybrid of a merger by 2 already established clans. I was attempting to impart to others the 'overwhelming' aspect of the challenge that faced us as a new clan.

We knew there would be those clans that resented us for being the newcomer on the clan scene and daring to think we could hang with them. We knew if we did beat anyone, they might be very pissed off that we had the audacity to actually be proud of our accomplishment

This isn't true. Probably 99% of the clans players are happy to see newcomers. We all want to have more opponents and worthy opponents. Maybe some people might be pissed off that you beat them, but I don't see think it's often the case. Kindly note that I dd not say All clans or [color=#0000BF]Most clans! I was and am referring to 'those clans' whose leaders have expressed the negative sentiments I quoted in my message. These clans are and have been top rated clans. There are apparently at least 2 - 3 of them quoted here....so it is more than just 1.[/color]

People are very probably more pissed off by your unusual communication, not because you beat them. Also it might seems sometimes that you are bragging, this ofc might pissed off people. I apologize if my 'unusual communication' offends anyone. I try to be candid and factual while remaining calm and objective. If this 'pisses anyone off'....I am sorry. I can understand how it may appear 'unusual' to those who express themselves otherwise. I have witnessed on many occasions others talking about the achievements of their clans. It occurs so often, it appeared to be an accepted standard of expression. If stating facts in an effort to explain my case seems to others as 'bragging'....I am sorry they see it that way.

Especially since you didn't accomplish much yet ( sorry but that's true). Winning the CL7 2nd div is an achievement, that's ok, but it's not like top clans are impressed by that achievement. You are a new interesting clan, and your current result might be showing that you will take your place in the top clans and stay there. I am not asking anyone to be 'impressed'. I am simply stating that we haven't been beaten yet and have faced more than a couple opponents. I do feel that is something to be proud of. Perhaps when we beat the 'top clans'.....they will think so also!

But you should know many new clans in the past also have risen very far to the top ( LHDD and ATL come to my mind there, rising in the top clans, but afterwards they quickly went out of top 10 and ; and speaking of LHDD, after our quick rise at our start, it took us a long time, years, to climb up again in the top clans.
So maybe TOP will really stay there, but being top 4 after a few wars isn't enough to be called a success. I said few wars, because you didn't beat 14 clans as you said, the CL matchs aren't wars, they are skirmishes, they do not really count. I appreciate your opinion. I however do view every battle we engage in as one that 'counts'. You are entitled to your perspective, but to me when you have faced 14 other clans (some who have been ranked rather high) and are able to be victorious in a majority of the 16 games you played against ALL of them.........this does 'count' as more than 'enough' to deserve the definition of 'success'.

So far you have beaten HH and TNC, and that's all, that's how people perceive your clan. At least that's how I do and that's how I believe most "old" clan players do perceive your clan. You and others are welcome to perceive things however you wish.

Which is why, I have to disagree with that :

still it is a shame that to be successful, one must endure these types of insults and filth.

The insults and filth are not related to your "success". I respectfully disagree with you here. The 'insults and filth' references I quoted came from clan leaders who were intimidated by us and were ultimately defeated. It was and is our 'success' that upsets them, because they can no longer hold on to the illusion they once deluded themselves with.

And, note that you are not the only one to have difficulties with iAmCaffeine and jltile1. Nothing surprising there. I suspected this, but I saw very few individuals admonishing them for their crude remarks. They seem very adept at kissing up to admins and those in power. I am sorry others have had difficulties with them also.

betiko wrote:you do realize that when 2 clans merge it's because they got too weak and have to do something, or they will just disapear, with many key people on break or retired right?
There isn't really any clan that merged that became tougher than what they were at their best. I will defer to your experience in the clan world on this one. I will simply say that I saw clans who were Very Strong merge with other clans who were also Strong in what appeared to be an effort to compete. These clans were already Strong.....but rather than try to attract quality players into their ranks........it was easier and more convenient to 'merge' with another Strong clan. Call it what you wish...to me it looked like Russia and China said to themselves "Hey....we will never beat the USA unless we join forces!"

there are lots of cycles like everywhere, once you've won big stuff you don't have the same motivation to continue. That is a shame!

There is a lot of fresh air in your clan and it brings a lot of fresh air to the clan world... but stop talking like you invented the wheel. You're not the first nor the last making a great start. I didn't say we invented the wheel.....we just want to improve on it! I have clearly stated we are new to this whole process and admittedly have much to learn....but perhaps the 'fresh air we bring to the clan world' can shake off some of the cobwebs and shed some light upon some stagnant hierarchical bureaucracy that appears to currently exist.

What exactly do you expect from this post? It's either completely stupid or trolling. Thank you once more for your kind and sensitive remarks! You are quite eloquent at times my friend. What I expected was to bring some of the 'fresh air' you spoke of to a situation that appears to be tolerated and even condoned by many in the clan world. If I can post a factual critique of the CDs and Admins which results in my remarks being deleted and locked down.............but abusive, ugly, mean-spirited language such as the quotes I mentioned are allowed to remain with no consequence.......then something is very wrong paradise my friend!

FYI, if you managed to climb so high and so fast in the F400, it's because you guys started from 0. This is like starting an new account on CC, beating low rankers gives you a lot of points; but at some point beating top clans doesn't give you much points. Actually...it was suggested to us by a seasoned veteran and respected Clan leader that we start out by engaging mid-level clans such as TNC & HH. We were advised that battling lower-ranked clans would not help us much in climbing up the ladder, so we did not accept any challenge from them. I am sorry you feel it prudent to relegate quality clans such as HH & TNC to the category of 'low rankers'. I hope they are not offended at this classification.

PaulatPeace wrote:I respectfully disagree with you here. The 'insults and filth' references I quoted came from clan leaders who were intimidated by us and were ultimately defeated. It was and is our 'success' that upsets them, because they can no longer hold on to the illusion they once deluded themselves with.

IcePack wrote:We have achieved one of those titles, and came a few games short of being only the 2nd clan to take CC and CL in the same year. We didn't make it tho, but in the process we earned another form of success (#1 rank).

BIG_John wrote:I understand the top clans do not consider CL7 a big win for a team wanting to compete at the top of the rankings but for TOP to win the first clan league that we have played in is a great thing! I understand the premier division is where the hardcore battling is at but you have to realize we have not had the opportunity to compete there yet. Now we will get that chance in CL8 and look forward to the great battles against the best of the best!

Keefie wrote:Paul seems to have gone a bit quiet. I'd like to know his reasons for creating this thread, what was he hoping to achieve ?

rockfist wrote:As a member of TOFU I can say that we've been around a long time (before me) and will be around for a very long time (after I am gone). We compete against the very best in the clan world and will continue to do so (yup we don't always win, but that's the thing-no one always wins at the very sharp end of the clan world). If/when you join that group at the sharp end we look forward to playing you (and you may even beat us then, but we aren't going away).

Its a good achievement winning CL7 Div 2. You should be proud of that. But it is D2. When you are competitive in D1 or in CC you will earn your place in the eyes of many of the top clans, as a top clan. Until then I'll requote Al Davis "just win baby."

Donelladan wrote:Well, Paul, I am not sure what to say to you here.
You said, as per title, that your succes come with negative side effects.
I told you success isn't the case, and you reply me it is.

PaulatPeace wrote:I respectfully disagree with you here. The 'insults and filth' references I quoted came from clan leaders who were intimidated by us and were ultimately defeated. It was and is our 'success' that upsets them, because they can no longer hold on to the illusion they once deluded themselves with.

Honestly, iAmCaffeine was having a beef having you way before your defeated ATN, therefore no you can't argue that it's because you defeated them.
I read the clan forum enough to know that. Yes...this is true. But his beef with us began long before even the CL7. If you look at the posts he made in our wars with HH and TNC.....you will see clearly he was intimidated by TOP and when he realized our legitimate threat to ATN's success.............he was even more intimidated...and evidenced by further negative posts.


Please note, I am not in any case annoyed by your way of posting.
I actually like you, and I would like to face you in a clan war.
But you are in the wrong when you thinking those attacks are something common in clan world ( and are due because of you "success"). Unfortunately, I think it's personal and it's against you. If it's just "personal against me....how would you explain the negative posts against MagnusGreeol, narutoserigala, Big_John, Freefalling123 and others in TOP? I have been the one who has been most vocal in these threads...so I can understand why you might think it is personal against me. It is personal against TOP! I like and respect you also my friend and am happy to agree to disagree with you.
But after all, it's quite normal that there is some disagreements in a large group of people. There is also a few individuality I can't stand in the clan world. Good for me those are less vocal people so it's less visible.

betiko wrote:my advise: change the way you communicate. The day you'll understand your results have nothing to do with the way people reply to your posts... And that you are being an annoying attention whore to most... at least that's the way you are perceived (and this whole thread reflects it once again.... no one starts a thread in the clan forum about themselvs, I don't know how many you've started already..)

My threads are not about Myself. I am sorry you have this misconception. I would also wager that if you looked at the # of posts I made and compared them to the # you make regularly....you would win that competition by a landslide! May I also compliment you again on your eloquent use of the English language. "annoying attention whore" is very special!

betiko wrote:

BIG_John wrote:I understand the top clans do not consider CL7 a big win for a team wanting to compete at the top of the rankings but for TOP to win the first clan league that we have played in is a great thing! I understand the premier division is where the hardcore battling is at but you have to realize we have not had the opportunity to compete there yet. Now we will get that chance in CL8 and look forward to the great battles against the best of the best!

I do consider winning the CL7 a great achievement... sorry to disapoint you but we are the ones who won it
we won the CL6 second division last year (but on top of that we won the random cup, the assassin clan challenge, and we lost 31-30 in the CC5 semi finals against FALL that won the title), the CL7 fisrt division this year and yet we aren't creating threads about success and how people hate us cause we are so good!

IcePack wrote:The only other thought I'll add to the conversation is this, success for each clan is individually measured. There are clans who don't ever want or plan to compete at the highest levels.
To those clans, winning Second Division would be a huge measure of success and a great thing to celebrate (and it's nothing to scoff at).
I think what some of the people are trying to get at, is if you profess to be one of the best, and are heading in that direction, and plan to compete at the highest levels, success has a different bar. Second Division at that level is nice, but it does not define a top level clan.

Leagues aren't generally viewed as wars either as I think don indicated, HH and TNC are a good start for wars, and the FOED war is an excellent step in the right direction. But again, winning 12 clans (in leagues) is much different then the success for example maybe PACK had achieved, where they won 12(?) ish wars in a row and several top level clans within that group. Or the success KORT or TOFU have established over the years most other clans only dream of.

So, to everyone stating what is or isn't success - there is perspective needed. What are the goals, where are they going, and where do they want to be / compared to are all very important to the conversation.

For example, FALL when we were established knew we wanted to compete in a Top 10 position. It's how we defined success the first year. We achieved it and held it long term. The next level of success for us was a Top 5 position, and working towards the two major titles (CCup and CLeague).

We have achieved one of those titles, and came a few games short of being only the 2nd clan to take CC and CL in the same year. We didn't make it tho, but in the process we earned another form of success (#1 rank).

Now it's up to us to redefine what our success will look like. Is it rank, is it CC6, is it CL8, is it all the above or both? That remains to be seen.

Donelladan wrote:

PaulatPeace wrote:I respectfully disagree with you here. The 'insults and filth' references I quoted came from clan leaders who were intimidated by us and were ultimately defeated. It was and is our 'success' that upsets them, because they can no longer hold on to the illusion they once deluded themselves with.

Honestly, iAmCaffeine was having a beef having you way before your defeated ATN, therefore no you can't argue that it's because you defeated them.
I read the clan forum enough to know that.

shoop76 wrote:I don't have anything against Top, Paul or any of its members. I think its good that you are very involved and that your war threads are very active as, these days, most are not. That being said, I can see that some people don't take a liking to all the self glorifying posts that you and other members make.

I think you guys are good for the clan world as you do draw interest to yourselves. This may not always be positive interest, but it gives other clans something to shoot for. I see you guys as the yankees, your either with them and love them or want to beat the crap out of them. But I think this can be said for more elite clans.
I
TOP are off to a very impressive start, it will be interesting to see how you guys fair with tougher competition.

shoop76 wrote:I don't have anything against Top, Paul or any of its members. I think its good that you are very involved and that your war threads are very active as, these days, most are not. That being said, I can see that some people don't take a liking to all the self glorifying posts that you and other members make.

I think you guys are good for the clan world as you do draw interest to yourselves. This may not always be positive interest, but it gives other clans something to shoot for. I see you guys as the yankees, your either with them and love them or want to beat the crap out of them. But I think this can be said for more elite clans.

TOP are off to a very impressive start, it will be interesting to see how you guys fair with tougher competition.

Thank you brother!

I appreciate your words and have come to respect you as someone who will take a stand against unfair practices...even when others don't. That take some guts!

I will say as a relative newcomer to the clan world...that it is sometimes challenging to discern what appears to be a fine line between self glorifying posts and ones that include fact based comments about one's own clan and others. I've seen many, many posts by others that sometimes subtly and sometimes not so subtly cite all the accomplishments the writer's clan has had over the years. I do not personally get offended at these...in part because I feel these clans have earned these accomplishments and deserve the glory they have received. As you have stated, I also feel TOP is off to a great start, which I am proud of. It seems that there is however a double standard being employed, as if the established clans have a right to list their accomplishments...but the new kids on the block are not. I will say that we may someday be defeated in battle. As Keefie mentioned, HH beat us in one of the sets in the CL7 (although the total battle of the 2 sets combined was I think 11 - 5 for TOP... .) Until we are though....I do think it is a nice feather in our cap that we are undefeated...especially for a clan that has not chosen lower-ranked clans to battle and has challenged the top clans to wars. I'm sure these statements will again be viewed by some as self aggrandizing, but I don't see it as such.

Thank you again brother for your candid perspective and remarks.

Paul