Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Archived]

[Blitzaholic]

Would you be comfortable with disclosing 2 ladders?

RPI Clan Ladder - Challenges only
RPI Clan Ladder - Comprehensive

YES, Like I said, they should be separate.

thank you for considering.

1. RPI Clan Ladder - Challenges only-minimum 40 games
2. RPI Clan Ladder - League or Comprehensive-minimum 20 games

[ahunda]

I for one will NOT be playing in season 2 if clan league is counted towards clan challenges.

Did you read my suggestion, Blitz ?

I understand the concerns about counting 10-20 game sets as challenges for the ladder. But could you live with taking the 180 league games as one big total ? That are far more than your suggested 40 game minimum for official challenges, and it should really rule out the luck factor. After all, at the end of the season most clans ended up, where one would expect it.

I repeat: Each participating clan played 180 competitive games in the league. Do you want to throw these results out of the window ? Or could we find a way to incorporate them into the ladder ?

And to clarify my suggestion: The league results would count towards the ladder, but not as a challenge.

The current table in the first posts shows Grade, Win % and W-L-T. I would add another column for league results and remove them from Win % and W-L-T. Thus the league would be in a category of its own, having no impact on the challenge record of clans, but still count towards the overall ranking (Grade).

I'll have to compare the calculations 2 ways.

1. Using the actual results
2. Using a fictional "Average Clan" of all the clans involved.

I´m not really good in these things, but if you calculated the fictional "average clan", wouldn´t you simply need to take the overall wins / losses for one calculation per clan ?

In theory, I don't think the results would change much, although, it will affect W-L-T by only 1 now instead of 7.

As stated, I wouldn´t count it as a challenge, but put it in a separate category of its own. Taking it out of the W-L-T record for official challenges altogether.

And one difference would be, that all 180 games would count, not only the 80 of your division.

Do you figure out the fictitious clan at the beginning or the end? I think D1 would be ok at the beginning, D2 has a number of clans with not enough history (less than 1.00 reliability factors) and likely should be at the end.

I guess, I´d do it at the end. So challenges, that took place during the season, are considered already.

1. RPI Clan Ladder - Challenges only-minimum 40 games
2. RPI Clan Ladder - League or Comprehensive-minimum 20 games

Couldn´t we assign some kind of quotient to challenges, so that their impact on the ladder is directly related to the size / scale of the challenge ? A 60 game challenge counting as much as three 20 game challenges ?

Small & new clans would have the option to try out smaller challenges, whilst established big clans would be free to set their individual minimum game numbers for challenges.

[Blitzaholic]

I did ahunda, again, bruce, scott, myself, many others, think they should be separate.

this way if one clan is # 1 in one area, at least another clan could be # 1 in another area.

gives more clans things to shoot for, for example: some go for score, some go for medals, some play sequential, others freestyle, some clans will go for clan challenge ladder rankings, some for clan league rankings.

If and when separated THOTA would be currently # 1 in both areas and if you did not have a chance to surpass them in one area, you more likely could more easily in another area.


It's a little more work for JP to separate the stats, but, in the long run, it will be worth in. always nice to have options and more than one way for a clan to reach # 1.

[ahunda]

Well. To be honest: I think, you (and Scott) are mostly concerned about your unbeaten challenge record. Both THOTA and the Monkeys now have a loss in the ladder statistics, because you lost one of your 20-game-sets in the league. And you would like to get rid of that. Scott made that quite clear, I think:

BUT to roll in the win/loss record for 10 game sets ( I think that's what you're doing ) is terrible. Some of us pride ourselves being unbeaten in clan challenges. Granted if that loss came from 40 game league set but it's coming off 10 or possibly 20. It's not a clan challenge and we shouldn't be penalized for something we're not playing.

Perfectly understandable, and I too agree with that. I believe, my suggestion would solve the issue though, because the league results would NOT count as a challenge. The 20-game-sets would NOT count in the win-loss record of clan challenges.

The more game the better to even this out some, it's common sense

With that same logic, how can you be opposed to including 180 competitive clan league games in the ladder ?

Clans did compete & prove their worth/strength over months. Those results, when added to the ladder (but NOT as a challenge) should only add to the significance/validity of the ladder, as it would be based on a much larger sample of games.

I honestly see no reason whatsoever to have separate ladders for challenges & league.

[Bones2484]

I honestly see no reason whatsoever to have separate ladders for challenges & league.

Ditto. And I have no problem with 20 games, even though I think 30/40 is much more preferable.

[jpcloet]

I honestly see no reason whatsoever to have separate ladders for challenges & league.

I can understand why some clans want this separated. Clans have more control over what happens in a challenge rather than what happens in the league. Right now we don't include tournament results either since there are no official clan tournaments, so we still have room within the comprehensive category to grow.

[Bones2484]

I honestly see no reason whatsoever to have separate ladders for challenges & league.

I can understand why some clans want this separated. Clans have more control over what happens in a challenge rather than what happens in the league. Right now we don't include tournament results either since there are no official clan tournaments, so we still have room within the comprehensive category to grow.

So clans should have the right to pick and choose when they feel the challenge best suits their chances to win and thus when their stats get counted and when they dont?

That is a laughable thought if this site is to ever have a true clan ranking system.

[jpcloet]

That is a laughable thought if this site is to ever have a true clan ranking system.

Agreed to some extent. Once we get closer to having a fully automated system, we can revisit some original ideas that we are eventually going to circle back to in the CLA around the semi-flexible standard setup.

Does anyone have an issue with disclosing 2 ladders currently as noted above?

[ahunda]

Does anyone have an issue with disclosing 2 ladders currently as noted above?

Only that it leaves the impression, that some people can use their standing here to bully others around and get their way whenever they want.

I see no reason for 2 ladders. Why should we have them ?

[Blitzaholic]

Does anyone have an issue with disclosing 2 ladders currently as noted above?

Only that it leaves the impression, that some people can use their standing here to bully others around and get their way whenever they want.

I see no reason for 2 ladders. Why should we have them ?

JP already answered this

in clan challenges, we have control and or NEGOTIATIONS and over much much more games.

in clan league it is confined and constricted to randomness and much less less games.


they are different and must be separated.

if you do not, then you will see many of the top clans not participate in the clan leagues, it will just be a joke. 20 games is much too small a sample and almost all I heard form agree. so, if you wish to count them, make them separate.

[jpcloet]

Well it seems I have even more work to do. Once the league stuff is done (finalize and signups), I'll add the second informational ladder and then I will put the 2 year rule and 30 game minimum limit to a vote in the CLA.

[lokisgal]

If the top clans feel threatened by the lower clans which is what this boils down to then its indeed laughable.

Seriously what are you so scared of?

[ahunda]

Looks like jpcloet wanted to respond to my last post and hit EDIT instead of QUOTE, thus deleting my post. So here goes again:

Blitz, you said, that you read my suggestions, yet you are completely ignoring them.

in clan challenges, we have control and or NEGOTIATIONS and over much much more games.

With my suggestion this would simply not be true.

Because then the league could be compared to one challenge of 180 (!) games. Half of those were home games, where you picked your maps & settings. You don´t have more control in any challenge.

And the set-up of the league is being NEGOTIATED by all clans involved. In the CLA subforum, where THOTA has representatives, and in the public clan forum, where you could give your input too.

in clan league it is confined and constricted to randomness and much less less games.

Not sure, what confinements, constrictions & randomness you are referring too. I take it, you are still talking about the 10-game-sets, where bad drop & dice in 1-2 games can have a huge impact on the result.

Yet again ignoring my suggestion to not count those 10-game-sets individually, but instead the season as a whole = 180 games. Thus eliminating the randomness / luck factor.

And then we are also not talking about "much less" games anymore. Has there been an official challenge with 180 games yet ?

20 games is much too small a sample and almost all I heard form agree. so, if you wish to count them, make them separate.

And again. Since you are ignoring my suggestion such blatantly, it can´t hurt repeating it a 10nth time, I guess:

How about NOT counting those 10-20 game-sets individually, as kind of mini challenges, BUT INSTEAD count the 180 league games as one great total ?


And here is jpcloets response, that he edited into my post:

Because then the league could be compared to one challenge of 180 (!) games. Half of those were home games, where you picked your maps & settings. You don´t have more control in any challenge.

Almost there, but we all get the point. You can add more of your own limitations up front though in a challenge. Blitz's concerns are around luck primarily. I would like to think that Blitz has more confidence in the Clan Directors that we will do the right thing rather than not play in Season 2 of the clan league.

As far as I can see, 3 people have spoken up against the inclusion of the league into the ladder so far (Blitz, Scott & Bruce). But neither one of them has responded to my suggestion in any way. I was hoping, we could find a way to incorporate the league into the ladder, that everybody will be happy with ...

[jpcloet]

The original vote in the CLA was 16-3 in favour of inclusion, with 6 abstaining.

[Bruceswar]

If the top clans feel threatened by the lower clans which is what this boils down to then its indeed laughable.

Seriously what are you so scared of?

It has nothing to do with being scared of anybody. It has to do with simple math that some clans feel 20 doubles, which we all know how a doubles game can go based on the drop, should not be counted. Some of them you have 0 chance in. The league has a crowned winner. It is a totally different thing than clan challenges. I have said from day 1 that the league should never count towards the ladder. They both should be separate. The way I see it is the league is nothing more than a big tournament for some fun and to win some games. The whole doubles issue is why we moved away from all doubles, and into quads and triples also. Let the 2 stand alone and be great for what they are.

[Bruceswar]

The original vote in the CLA was 16-3 in favour of inclusion, with 6 abstaining.

When did this vote take place? I never seen it, and I was part of the CLA.

[khazalid]

sir cowalot of the abstinent 6's

[Bruceswar]

sir cowalot of the abstinent 6's

We are in season 2... Will you guys be in it to stop us from winning?

[ahunda]

The original vote in the CLA was 16-3 in favour of inclusion, with 6 abstaining.

When did this vote take place? I never seen it, and I was part of the CLA.

You posted 2nd in the poll thread, and you did vote: viewtopic.php?f=295&t=77952

Now you all keep talking about the luck factor in a set of 20 doubles.

Could you all please stop ignoring me and at least once refer to the idea of including the entire season as one grand total ?

[khazalid]

sir cowalot of the abstinent 6's

We are in season 2... Will you guys be in it to stop us from winning?

it looks unlikely, too many members absent/leaving etc

[hwhrhett]

sir cowalot of the abstinent 6's

We are in season 2... Will you guys be in it to stop us from winning?

it looks unlikely, too many members absent/leaving etc

dragoons will be in it, to stop you from winning...

i am still for including the clan league in the ladder totals... btw... but i have nothing to say about it otherwise really. i just like the fact that it is like a ton of mini-challenges. i can see why some might not like that, but perhaps may want to take it up with your clans cla representatives for not properly representing the opinions of the clan. i speak for my clan, and they dont always agree with me on every decision i make, but i keep them well informed on the things i do as a representative, so that i can consistently be learning where we stand as a whole on issues....

[TheBro]

Are we forgetting that the RPI is unofficial? Come on Thota grow a set!

[khazalid]

bones are bones my friend

[Blitzaholic]

ahunda And again. Since you are ignoring my suggestion such blatantly, it can´t hurt repeating it a 10nth time, I guess:

How about NOT counting those 10-20 game-sets individually, as kind of mini challenges, BUT INSTEAD count the 180 league games as one great total ?

I would say No ahunda, because in clan challenges its all against one clan, the clan league is with a variety of clans.

2 separate things, again, that is why they should be separate.

[Blitzaholic]

Well it seems I have even more work to do. Once the league stuff is done (finalize and signups), I'll add the second informational ladder and then I will put the 2 year rule and 30 game minimum limit to a vote in the CLA.

thank you for implementing this jp

does this also mean you are separating the 2 as well? challenges and league?