[Design Discussion] AutoWar

[IcePack]

Name: AutoWar

Brief Descriptor: Auto Tournament for Clan Wars

What is it:
New page / tab on start a game where a clan "creates" a war
information auto entered into database
They have drop downs for which clans to show who is facing who
How many rounds (and dates / break down dubs trips quads per round)
How many games in war total
Check boxes for allowed settings and whether FOW Rule etc is applied

There would also be a place for the clans to enter their forum link

Once the "war" itself is created, clans can access their ongoing auto wars through the clan tab. Once the games are created and entered into the "queue" for each round, their clan name for that round (example FALL Round 1) would go from red (meaning not entered) to green (finalized and submitted).

The auto system then at the selected date and time (assuming both clans are green) auto exchanges game info via pm and creates games and invites players all at once.

Games are created and "invited" players are selected on all games ahead of time.
While players are entered into the autonwar page they aren't actually invited until
the appointed date and time.

Editing / continuing

While all of this is "nice", the main thing I would like here is:
ANYONE in the clan can enter a game into this page.
When they enter it, it will show up as a "suggested" game (with players and settings) to the war organizer. He will just have a box to check and "accept" (plus an accept all suggestions)

This will drastically reduce the work load for leaders and make it so everyone can be involved in that war process.

-----

Of course all game #'s etc need to get transferred or included in the clan database area as well but also removes ANY need for clans to post games in the war active thread thing (at least for ones not associated for events)

I imagine we would still have to do events the same way and leagues but this might encourage / make easier for pick up wars and help clans survive longer without bonifide leaders

[IcePack]

Note to self some sort of check or balance to ensure someone doesn't create wars for a clan they aren't in / don't want? Invite system for wars where clans can accept?

[IcePack]

Also:

Maybe a war for the event organizer for Conquerors cup or mini cup etc can send the war invites for his competition instead of just clans that they are part of. This way big events that use full wars can use the system.

Maybe a way to also get leagues to use the system

[Extreme Ways]

I'll try to look at it from my own standpoint, TOFU-specific standpoint and VDLL-standpoint. TOFU may not be similar to other top clans, but I think VDLL is similar to a lot of bottom clans.

Name: AutoWar

Brief Descriptor: Auto Tournament for Clan Wars

What is it:
New page / tab on start a game where a clan "creates" a war
information auto entered into database
They have drop downs for which clans to show who is facing who
How many rounds (and dates / break down dubs trips quads per round)
How many games in war total
Check boxes for allowed settings and whether FOW Rule etc is applied

There would also be a place for the clans to enter their forum link

Sounds good, takes away work from Keith.

Once the "war" itself is created, clans can access their ongoing auto wars through the clan tab. Once the games are created and entered into the "queue" for each round, their clan name for that round (example FALL Round 1) would go from red (meaning not entered) to green (finalized and submitted).

The auto system then at the selected date and time (assuming both clans are green) auto exchanges game info via pm and creates games and invites players all at once.

What if clans aren't green? At VDLL being late is the norm rather than the exception.

Games are created and "invited" players are selected on all games ahead of time.
While players are entered into the autonwar page they aren't actually invited until
the appointed date and time.

Editing / continuing

While all of this is "nice", the main thing I would like here is:
ANYONE in the clan can enter a game into this page.
When they enter it, it will show up as a "suggested" game (with players and settings) to the war organizer. He will just have a box to check and "accept" (plus an accept all suggestions)

This will drastically reduce the work load for leaders and make it so everyone can be involved in that war process.

This is where you lose me... At TOFU, we dont do much suggestions. We have leadership that proposes games to play and people reply with what games they'd like to participate in. From that list, leadership creates teams. In Poly it's slightly different, but poly isnt considered here and is another beast.
In VDLL, member participation is very low. I would try to do the same with awaysets (post settings, ask what they'd like to play, send mass PM out), but I would get like maybe 1/3rd filled with preferred players. Everything else was by hand. Same goes for suggested games, I'd have maybe 1-2 settings requested and everything else would be done by hand, pulling data from past clanwars. Point is, for these two cases it would not relieve stress on leadership. Other cases? Idk. Players should be optional at all costs.

-----

Of course all game #'s etc need to get transferred or included in the clan database area as well but also removes ANY need for clans to post games in the war active thread thing (at least for ones not associated for events)

I imagine we would still have to do events the same way and leagues but this might encourage / make easier for pick up wars and help clans survive longer without bonifide leaders

I'm a pessimist. I like the feature, but for me the most important element would be to be able to input game numbers that would automatically get added to the clanwar database, with option to remove faulty games.

[Keefie]

I love the concept but I'm sceptical about how much use it would get.

For one, as war organiser for HH I wouldn't use it. I actually enjoy the war planning, deciding which maps to play and who should play them. I know my clan and I know what maps suit each player and I'm probably the only one in the clan who does. I really don't think many clans would want or need non-leaders suggesting maps via this system when they could already do it via pm or a forum thread. This might work if we had loads of new clans forming all of the time but not so much for long established ones.

[Extreme Ways]

I love the concept but I'm sceptical about how much use it would get.

For one, as war organiser for HH I wouldn't use it. I actually enjoy the war planning, deciding which maps to play and who should play them. I know my clan and I know what maps suit each player and I'm probably the only one in the clan who does. I really don't think many clans would want or need non-leaders suggesting maps via this system when they could already do it via pm or a forum thread. This might work if we had loads of new clans forming all of the time but not so much for long established ones.

FYI - TOFU considers suggestions but it depends on the opponent's stature and skill on the map. For example Arama has a lot of suggested games in CC7 vs AFOS we normally wouldn't play, because he volunteered to lower the gameload of others and take on a lot of games. I believe we have a document with strong settings, but most of our maps depend on the opponent.

[IcePack]

Ok here it is moved to public.

Please be constructive. Provide feedback. If we can determine functionality needs and produce a suggestion (assuming there's interest) we can look into moving this forward.

My apologies for it being cryptic and not a smoothly written post like normally would, a lot of things in the CD area I post / throw out there quickly so I don't forget and it's not so much organized thought as it is ideas. Then I clean it up later before released to public, but this is raw version transferred here to save time

[Vid_FISO]

I love the concept but I'm sceptical about how much use it would get.

For one, as war organiser for HH I wouldn't use it. I actually enjoy the war planning, deciding which maps to play and who should play them. I know my clan and I know what maps suit each player and I'm probably the only one in the clan who does. I really don't think many clans would want or need non-leaders suggesting maps via this system when they could already do it via pm or a forum thread. This might work if we had loads of new clans forming all of the time but not so much for long established ones.

Every now and again we get something like 'me and X/Y/Z are playing this map with these settings and doing okay (or better)' useful option for those willing to get involved and less chance of being overlooked if multiple MoWs involved. Still hoping that the RL would chuck up a map, settings and team wanting to pursue the hand they've been dealt, will need to analyse the season later in the year for new options.

[Donelladan]

Would the player be invited to the games, or "auto-join" like in auto-tournament ? If it's auto-join I am rather against it. Sometimes I invite people to play games and finally they tell me they have too many. If those players were forced to join clan games they may end up leaving the clan or it would require that we sit them for the whole game.

I supposed it would be possible to edit the games once they are entered ?
My idea would be like I pre-fill everything with games and player, so that it's ready, but I have possiblity to change a game until the last moment ( i.e., until it start).


What would happen if one of the clan didn't fill his games on time ?

I'd like that there is two possibility.
1) full random for the clan that is late ( could be use for the CC7 or CL8 rather than forfeiting )
2) nothing happen, maybe a pm reminding the clan leader that they are late. If it's a friendly war. - OR -
2)bis make it possible that the auto war is created without dates for friendly war, so that they can't be late, and the war start once both clans confirmed all their games and players.

Therefore, also allow wars to start earlier if both clans have filled everything and confirmed.


EDIT : Forgot to say, it's an awesome idea. I really hope you can make it happen IcePack.

And -
make it possible to have more than 1 clan organizer.
make it possible that we can block suggestions from other players from the clan. ( not so important, I guess we can also simply tell our clanmates, don't suggest if we don't want them to, but would be nice if it could be an option).

[Extreme Ways]

Would the player be invited to the games, or "auto-join" like in auto-tournament ? If it's auto-join I am rather against it. Sometimes I invite people to play games and finally they tell me they have too many. If those players were forced to join clan games they may end up leaving the clan or it would require that we sit them for the whole game.

Not specified, but I assumed invited because of those reasons.

I supposed it would be possible to edit the games once they are entered ?
My idea would be like I pre-fill everything with games and player, so that it's ready, but I have possiblity to change a game until the last moment ( i.e., until it start).

Yes

What would happen if one of the clan didn't fill his games on time ?

Wasnt determined yet, an issue I also raised.

I'd like that there is two possibility.
1) full random for the clan that is late ( could be use for the CC7 or CL8 rather than forfeiting )
2) nothing happen, maybe a pm reminding the clan leader that they are late. If it's a friendly war. - OR -
2)bis make it possible that the auto war is created without dates for friendly war, so that they can't be late, and the war start once both clans confirmed all their games and players.

1) No. Unless I am wrong and it is simply VDLL, being late is the norm rather than an exception for less serious clans. Punishments like these would cause them to not use the tool.
2(b)), sounds good.

Therefore, also allow wars to start earlier if both clans have filled everything and confirmed.]
Interesting possibility, but I dont see much use. Do you mean auto-start once both clans have filled everything or some action for both clans to change the start date?

EDIT : Forgot to say, it's an awesome idea. I really hope you can make it happen IcePack.

Judging from other reactions in here, I guess I was wrong thinking it wouldnt get much use.

make it possible to have more than 1 clan organizer.
make it possible that we can block suggestions from other players from the clan. ( not so important, I guess we can also simply tell our clanmates, don't suggest if we don't want them to, but would be nice if it could be an option).

1) I think that was Ice's plan, but it still needs some direction. Maybe automatically set leaders as organizers? Allow leaders to set up wars with an input field for organizers? Idk.
2) I dont think this will get through if the feature gets developed, especially since you dont do anything with these games until you accept them.

Note: my personal view, not CD team view. We all have opinions of course and this is not how everybody feels. Should be trivial, but mentioning it just in case.

[Donelladan]

@EW, concerning my idea that if someone is late, then random games are automatically created.

It shouldn't prevent anyone from using the tool. I am only suggesting it because it's one of the idea that was suggested for the CL9. I think it could be a nice option. As long as it remains an option, obviously.
At the moment we are planning for warning then forfeit if someone is late for CL9, I really prefer the idea that all the games created are random if you are late than a forfeit. Now under the current system the burden of creating randoms games would fall on the TO or the leader of opposing clans, which isn't fair. With the auto-war the auto-war would create random games, then auto-invite randomly player from a list of preset players ( the list we have to give when we register CL9 for example). And no delay in the CL9 nor forfeit
Would be even better for the random leagues :p just let the system do everything if you don't care of the settings.

[Extreme Ways]

@EW, concerning my idea that if someone is late, then random games are automatically created.

It shouldn't prevent anyone from using the tool. I am only suggesting it because it's one of the idea that was suggested for the CL9. I think it could be a nice option. As long as it remains an option, obviously.
At the moment we are planning for warning then forfeit if someone is late for CL9, I really prefer the idea that all the games created are random if you are late than a forfeit. Now under the current system the burden of creating randoms games would fall on the TO or the leader of opposing clans, which isn't fair. With the auto-war the auto-war would create random games, then auto-invite randomly player from a list of preset players ( the list we have to give when we register CL9 for example). And no delay in the CL9 nor forfeit
Would be even better for the random leagues :p just let the system do everything if you don't care of the settings.

Quick comment, auto invite wouldnt work because of freemiums and individual gameload.

[Donelladan]

Simple way around, ask for a minimum of 10 premium players for the registration in the CL9.
Anyway, I am quite sure no one register with a list of 10 players with freemiums or maybe 1.
Still speaking of CL9, game load if you use 10 players is 3 games/players.

And, given, could be that some players refuse/can't ( freemiums) take their invite. Still better than having to forfeit all games or to have to invite all players manually for CL9 TO

[Robespierre__]

For Random League this would be impossibly good. Even clans with minimal leadership could do wars using this tool.

--Robes

[IcePack]

Any other ideas / comments / feedback here? Even though I haven't been able to respond in depth I am reading / thinking about this in the mean time.

[laughingcavalier]

I like this. Organising is a big pressure on clans. My experience of automation is that even where the benefit has been hard to visualise in advance, it has brought significant and sometimes unexpected benefits.

[IcePack]

Trying to follow up on a few things while my plate is paused / semi free, so lets see where we are with this since discussion has died down / not gotten very far. To save space, I'll link to the comments instead of putting in a bunch of quotes.

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=222357#p4921883

If clans aren't agreen, then it doesn't exchange until both clans are. I was initially thinking, it would also send a automated PM notifying the guy listed as the event TO so hes aware someone has past the imposed exchange date. But the idea being, these things can be done well in advance instead of only on one specific day, thereby maybe reducing the number of times a clan would be late. I know sometimes I'm late bcuz I thought i would be free one day, and then wasn't. But if i didn't have to be free that specfic day and could enter it any point in the week(s) leading up to it without fear of my created games being leaked super early and losing any advantage vs the other clan, then I would just make them when I was free in advance and allow the system to automate it on time.

If a clan (like TOFU) doesn't take suggestions, they dont need to use it. No tool will be perfect for every clan. But even in your TOFU example, they could still collect the players / list and just create in advance so while they might not use the suggestions tool from members, they can still use the tool in other ways.

If a clan (like VDLL) member participation is really low, if theres a super easy simplified way to get involved, that participation might get increased. But again, like above even if they dont its still useful for different things that could relieve work on leaders without perhaps using its full potential.

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=222357#p4922542

It doesn't remove planning, or the need to plan. But if you had a handful of "regularly" used teams or players, you could add those at a click instead of doing it over and over, it could save you time (and if it becomes really easy, could increase how many wars potentially leaders can handle on their own) I dont see it as something for new clans, but i think it would be used more by established clans. And the main feature to me is the pre creating and exchanges not just the suggestions feature.

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=222357#p4927658

This is the type of thing I'm thinking of when it comes to different players / teams suggesting possible selections for the organizer. He still has to do his research and planning, but just easier and less hunting potentially. (for example, ok ill use your classic team but what were the settings again? can get eliminated by knowing exactly what the team is, and settings etc as they are made by the suggested teams)

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=222357#p4927853

Originally I imagined auto join, but I see your point(s) and fine with it being invites. Yes, you would be able to drop / invite a different player, or drop the map and add it again (i dont know if we can "edit" anymore then we can normally...but getting rid of the mistake and adding new would be possible)

If clans dont fill on time, it doesn't get exchanged. I dont think we want to start automating differnet "punishments" for lateness, but as I note above send a PM to the organizer (or maybe organizer and clan reps) to notify of the issue and can be addressed by the organizer if needed.

Is there a need for more then one organizer? If the "other organizer" is able to put all the suggested / planned teams for the one thats there, that should just take the main guy to click and accept all the suggestions. I think it would still run normally where we have the main point of contacts for the war have the control. (but i guess its somethign that could be considered)

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=222357#p4928008

I think forfeits etc will be handled under the new rules as opposed to automated through a tool like this. We will be going back to our previous policy of forfeits only in exceptional circumstances which we got away from more recently.

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=222357#p4928802

RL would become a breeze, you could probably set this up within the first week or two as a organizer and then forget about it unless someone leaves the site or takes a break. I agree.

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=222357#p4930408

Thanks, that is the hope. But I'm not sure where we are headed. The goal of moving this thread public is we can work through potential issues and more easily come up with something workable / have a plan or detailed "suggestion" and how it would work, so that we can try setting it up and see if / how it would work before implimentation.

[iAmCaffeine]

Trying to follow up on a few things while my plate is paused / semi free, so lets see where we are with this since discussion has died down / not gotten very far. To save space, I'll link to the comments instead of putting in a bunch of quotes.

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 7#p4921883

show: QUOTE

If clans aren't agreen, then it doesn't exchange until both clans are. I was initially thinking, it would also send a automated PM notifying the guy listed as the event TO so hes aware someone has past the imposed exchange date. But the idea being, these things can be done well in advance instead of only on one specific day, thereby maybe reducing the number of times a clan would be late. I know sometimes I'm late bcuz I thought i would be free one day, and then wasn't. But if i didn't have to be free that specfic day and could enter it any point in the week(s) leading up to it without fear of my created games being leaked super early and losing any advantage vs the other clan, then I would just make them when I was free in advance and allow the system to automate it on time.

If a clan (like TOFU) doesn't take suggestions, they dont need to use it. No tool will be perfect for every clan. But even in your TOFU example, they could still collect the players / list and just create in advance so while they might not use the suggestions tool from members, they can still use the tool in other ways.

If a clan (like VDLL) member participation is really low, if theres a super easy simplified way to get involved, that participation might get increased. But again, like above even if they dont its still useful for different things that could relieve work on leaders without perhaps using its full potential.

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 7#p4922542

show: QUOTE

It doesn't remove planning, or the need to plan. But if you had a handful of "regularly" used teams or players, you could add those at a click instead of doing it over and over, it could save you time (and if it becomes really easy, could increase how many wars potentially leaders can handle on their own) I dont see it as something for new clans, but i think it would be used more by established clans. And the main feature to me is the pre creating and exchanges not just the suggestions feature.

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 7#p4927658

show: QUOTE

This is the type of thing I'm thinking of when it comes to different players / teams suggesting possible selections for the organizer. He still has to do his research and planning, but just easier and less hunting potentially. (for example, ok ill use your classic team but what were the settings again? can get eliminated by knowing exactly what the team is, and settings etc as they are made by the suggested teams)

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 7#p4927853

show: QUOTE

Originally I imagined auto join, but I see your point(s) and fine with it being invites. Yes, you would be able to drop / invite a different player, or drop the map and add it again (i dont know if we can "edit" anymore then we can normally...but getting rid of the mistake and adding new would be possible)

If clans dont fill on time, it doesn't get exchanged. I dont think we want to start automating differnet "punishments" for lateness, but as I note above send a PM to the organizer (or maybe organizer and clan reps) to notify of the issue and can be addressed by the organizer if needed.

Is there a need for more then one organizer? If the "other organizer" is able to put all the suggested / planned teams for the one thats there, that should just take the main guy to click and accept all the suggestions. I think it would still run normally where we have the main point of contacts for the war have the control. (but i guess its somethign that could be considered)

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 7#p4928008

show: QUOTE

I think forfeits etc will be handled under the new rules as opposed to automated through a tool like this. We will be going back to our previous policy of forfeits only in exceptional circumstances which we got away from more recently.

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 7#p4928802

show: QUOTE

RL would become a breeze, you could probably set this up within the first week or two as a organizer and then forget about it unless someone leaves the site or takes a break. I agree.

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 7#p4930408

show: QUOTE

Thanks, that is the hope. But I'm not sure where we are headed. The goal of moving this thread public is we can work through potential issues and more easily come up with something workable / have a plan or detailed "suggestion" and how it would work, so that we can try setting it up and see if / how it would work before implimentation.

I added the quotes you linked into spoiler tags because it was a pain to try and read the post coherently.

I - shudder - find myself agreeing with Keefie completely. Perhaps other clans would like it, but Aeternus would have no use for it whatsoever. The only thing I could see being utilised, would be an easier way to create a load of clan games at once, because the current method is rather laborious. Something like a game creator where you select the tournament / clan war, then you can click the players from your clan and the map etc. That'd be neat.

[shocked439]

What if this was simplified into a text field. You could deliniate game creation parameters with a semi colon and have some generic input form to start the game creation.

I can try to mock up what my idea would look like but essentially it would be an input form to collect data about the war: title, opponent, fog rule, number of games for each type, then that would generate a text box with lines to be filled out something like

Quads; MapName; spoil settings; fort setting; fog y/n; trench y/n; player 1;player 2; player 3; player 4
Trips; MapName; spoil settings; fort setting; fog y/n; trench y/n; player 1;player 2; player 3
Poly(x); MapName; spoil settings; fort setting; fog y/n; trench y/n; player 1

The MoW could then populate the input box and save the text file if they use the same maps/settings/people and still have ease of access.

[iAmCaffeine]

I can see lots of people fucking it up if they have to type in everything. Bear in mind you would have initial troops, turn order, round limit, round length. I can't see everyone remembering to include every single parameter. I'd just love to see a system were you can click all the settings, rather than typing the names / labels.

[shocked439]

I can see lots of people fucking it up if they have to type in everything. Bear in mind you would have initial troops, turn order, round limit, round length. I can't see everyone remembering to include every single parameter. I'd just love to see a system were you can click all the settings, rather than typing the names / labels.

Oh I would think the engine would prepopulate the parameters in the order they should be in then the organizer replaces player1 with actual player name.

[iAmCaffeine]

I can see lots of people fucking it up if they have to type in everything. Bear in mind you would have initial troops, turn order, round limit, round length. I can't see everyone remembering to include every single parameter. I'd just love to see a system were you can click all the settings, rather than typing the names / labels.

Oh I would think the engine would prepopulate the parameters in the order they should be in then the organizer replaces player1 with actual player name.

Hm. I thought you were saying the person creating the games would literally type "quads; archipelago; automatic; etc" themselves, having each game in a separate line, and they'd all be created en masse.

[Vid_FISO]

Been thinking about this and I ask myself what would make my life and that of every other MoW's life easier.

Clearly there are some clans where one person does it all, some with 2 or 3 and I'd guess our 6 is as high as it gets.

Be it one running every war for a clan or any one of 30 clan members running a war, what would really help?

Most clans certainly will have maps/ settings that they will use in virtually every war they fight, maybe the same team all the time, maybe one or more constants with one or more varying.

At present we create a game on whatever map with whatever settings and inviting whichever players and we do it war after war, same map, same settings, same players.

If this tool can on first use not just save the map/ settings/ players for this war, but as a selectable and editable list for future use by anyone within the clan it would probably be used by all clans for all wars to differing degrees.

First use, create the games with maps/ settings/ players, box for which set (enter a number) and hopefully you have a nice sortable list (map alpha/ game type/ set) to see exactly what you've pre-created, radio buttons to agree selection for the specific war, a button to submit, with of course the ability to go in and edit before an set exchange is due.

The list stays, next war comes along and maybe some new maps/ settings/ players are added, the existing list could be edited for a change in settings or players.

A different MoW comes along and has a very nice list to work from, changes where needed, adds different maps where required, fills in the set boxes and clicks the radio buttons, has quite an easy time of it.

New suggestions for maps/ settings and players should remain within clan forums for discussion and decisions whether to use/ add to the list.

After a few wars anyone within the clan should be able to run a war with little thought and effort. For the one man bands - you won't be on CC forever!

[IcePack]

Been thinking about this and I ask myself what would make my life and that of every other MoW's life easier.

Clearly there are some clans where one person does it all, some with 2 or 3 and I'd guess our 6 is as high as it gets.

Be it one running every war for a clan or any one of 30 clan members running a war, what would really help?

Most clans certainly will have maps/ settings that they will use in virtually every war they fight, maybe the same team all the time, maybe one or more constants with one or more varying.

At present we create a game on whatever map with whatever settings and inviting whichever players and we do it war after war, same map, same settings, same players.

If this tool can on first use not just save the map/ settings/ players for this war, but as a selectable and editable list for future use by anyone within the clan it would probably be used by all clans for all wars to differing degrees.

First use, create the games with maps/ settings/ players, box for which set (enter a number) and hopefully you have a nice sortable list (map alpha/ game type/ set) to see exactly what you've pre-created, radio buttons to agree selection for the specific war, a button to submit, with of course the ability to go in and edit before an set exchange is due.

The list stays, next war comes along and maybe some new maps/ settings/ players are added, the existing list could be edited for a change in settings or players.

A different MoW comes along and has a very nice list to work from, changes where needed, adds different maps where required, fills in the set boxes and clicks the radio buttons, has quite an easy time of it.

New suggestions for maps/ settings and players should remain within clan forums for discussion and decisions whether to use/ add to the list.

After a few wars anyone within the clan should be able to run a war with little thought and effort. For the one man bands - you won't be on CC forever!

Interesting idea Might even be more simple to impliment, I'm not sure.

[IcePack]

No one else has thoughts on vids comments?