Jamaica map - retirement

[ConfederateSS]

-----------Well ,Doc must have took the Mrs... For a car ride through time...She decided to stay in the past...She hasn't posted for a while...Must have decided to withdraw her proposal......As to people who dislike things... Don't play, don't look ...Why must the will of the world bend for a few ,when the few can take care of their own lives...Instead of stepping on everyone else's toes.....
-------------Take for example ,if someone was allergic to peanuts...Goes to a baseball game in a park...Sees people eating peanuts...Goes home and gets a lawyer...Complains to city Officials....The city bans peanuts in parks...So ,now at a baseball game in a park...Where say 1,000 people are not enjoying peanuts at a game... Because the park bans peanuts...A peanut salesman is out of a job...1,000 people can't enjoy peanuts....When are people going to say...To themselves...Hey, people are eating peanuts...I am going to sit far away from them...Or ,I have decided not to go to the game,or go to the pond and feed the ducks...I am allergic to peanuts,Let others enjoy their fun...I will do something else..... Remember The R.A.F...in WW2...The Battle for Britian...or. A Spock(Star Trek,not Doc. Spock)...same philosophy....The good of the many ,out way the good of the few...
-------------When will those few, take others...The MANY's feelings into consideration...Instead of being selfish all the time these days....When in the past...The few would step aside with Honor...So that others can enjoy things....Instead of ruining things for everyone...The point I am trying to make...If you don't like the map... Don't play the map...PERIOD...You don't have to play or look at it...It is simple as that....You can control that action...That is something you can do...Without anyone forcing you....
------------As with anything that offends people now a days....Step back and think...for a moment...Do I have the choice to turn my head...Or in the case of peanuts in a park... Don't go...Sit far away from those eating peanuts... In stead of Having Peanuts Banned from the Park...So,You can feel Awesome what you have done...At the expense of others feelings...I got Peanuts Banned... Hurray ,When in reality...You might only go to that park 3 or 4 times a year...But that is the mentality...Of the people society is raising Now A Days....THE ME / ENTITLED GENERATION...ME,ME,ME... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... ....To be Honest though...I don't play maps(Unless an Event/Tourney has them,I have to)...That you have to read a Novel in the KEY...If the Moon is Full on a Tuesday ,you get +2 troops...If you had a sandwich for lunch -5 troops....I just like the basic Maps...Put the troops on the Battlefields...Roll those dice...I play RISK...To battle not read a Novel... ....I just hate when people try and ban things...When I see things trying to be Banned...It makes me want to fight for them... ...You never know what will be Banned next...So, you might take up the fight on the 1st thing you see...

[Mosios]

I have long been looking for something like this thanks.

[MrBoom]

Definitely don't retire it. It's an interesting map.

[BaldAdonis]

The author retains copyright on their work, and gives Conquer Club permission to use the imagery free of charge, for as long as Conquer Club sees fit on the Conquer Club website. Conquer Club cannot sell, lease, or lend the right to use the images to anyone else.

Conquer Club may not transfer the map to anyone else though.

How did they transfer to Big Wham LLC? I guess lawyers haven't looked at these IP arrangements.

[SoN!c]

Posters in this thread have clarified that CC's only two options are to keep the map exactly as is or remove it, so for the reasons stated in my suggestion below I am now proposing this map be retired.

Concise description:

• Change name of the 'Jamaica' map to 'Colonial Era Jamaica'

Specifics/Details:

• As above

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• As per this thread, CC is pretty unanimous in agreeing that the name should change
• Whole range of reasons as to why the current name is no longer considered appropriate
• Very minor change that should only take a second to make
• Would help make CC feel more inclusive

Please make a working map yourselves first so you understand the process involved. You could make a "New Jamaica" just how you want it and then we can vote which one of the two should be called "Jamaica". Good luck!

[BaldAdonis]

Please make a working map yourselves first so you understand the process involved. You could make a "New Jamaica" just how you want it and then we can vote which one of the two should be called "Jamaica". Good luck!

People who made maps all left. cairnswk is gone. It would be easy to stop using any racist maps, but the owners don't care.

[Doc_Brown]

The author retains copyright on their work, and gives Conquer Club permission to use the imagery free of charge, for as long as Conquer Club sees fit on the Conquer Club website. Conquer Club cannot sell, lease, or lend the right to use the images to anyone else.

Conquer Club may not transfer the map to anyone else though.

How did they transfer to Big Wham LLC? I guess lawyers haven't looked at these IP arrangements.

As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing. The website owner couldn't, for example, start using the map artwork on another Big Wham LLC project.

Regardless, as has been discussed on here at length, very few people on this site would agree with your sentiment that the Jamaica map is racist. The consensus was that if there was an easy way for the map creator to change the name of the map to "Colonial Jamaica" or to make some slight artwork changes, it wouldn't be a bad thing, but there was no support for removing the map from the site altogether.

[Dukasaur]

Please make a working map yourselves first so you understand the process involved. You could make a "New Jamaica" just how you want it and then we can vote which one of the two should be called "Jamaica". Good luck!

People who made maps all left. cairnswk is gone. It would be easy to stop using any racist maps, but the owners don't care.

How could a map be racist? By acknowledging that slavery was a component of the colonial economy? It's a historical fact. Slavery was a HUGE component of colonial economies. Do you think that burying your head in the sand and pretending it didn't happen will retroactively make it go away?

[Nut Shot Scott]

Please make a working map yourselves first so you understand the process involved. You could make a "New Jamaica" just how you want it and then we can vote which one of the two should be called "Jamaica". Good luck!

People who made maps all left. cairnswk is gone. It would be easy to stop using any racist maps, but the owners don't care.

How could a map be racist? By acknowledging that slavery was a component of the colonial economy? It's a historical fact. Slavery was a HUGE component of colonial economies. Do you think that burying your head in the sand and pretending it didn't happen will retroactively make it go away?

^

This. Definitely this.

[BaldAdonis]

As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.

You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.

very few people on this site would agree with your sentiment that the Jamaica map is racist.

Yes, I understand this place has leaned hard into racism over the last 12 years to appeal to Americans and push out everyone else. This site is awful.

[SoN!c]

As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.

You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.

very few people on this site would agree with your sentiment that the Jamaica map is racist.

Yes, I understand this place has leaned hard into racism over the last 12 years to appeal to Americans and push out everyone else. This site is awful.

Im European and i don't see the "problem" attention seeker. If you have nothing to do, don't do it here

[Doc_Brown]

As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.

You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.

Are you a lawyer, then? If not, your own advice/interpretation of any legal agreements is at least as suspect as my own, assuming that I am not a lawyer. You have not actually confirmed whether I am or am not a lawyer. Also, note that the original quote was my own summary of what I know about the artwork licensing. So you're complaining that my explanation of my own summary of a legal agreement that has not been directly quoted anywhere in this thread is in error.

[SoN!c]

As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.

You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.

Are you a lawyer, then? If not, your own advice/interpretation of any legal agreements is at least as suspect as my own, assuming that I am not a lawyer. You have not actually confirmed whether I am or am not a lawyer. Also, note that the original quote was my own summary of what I know about the artwork licensing. So you're complaining that my explanation of my own summary of a legal agreement that has not been directly quoted anywhere in this thread is in error.

Doc, never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience..

[TeeGee]

This site is awful.

Yet, you keep coming back?

As far as the map goes, see Dukasaur's comment above.

[MichelSableheart]

Please make a working map yourselves first so you understand the process involved. You could make a "New Jamaica" just how you want it and then we can vote which one of the two should be called "Jamaica". Good luck!

People who made maps all left. cairnswk is gone. It would be easy to stop using any racist maps, but the owners don't care.

How could a map be racist? By acknowledging that slavery was a component of the colonial economy? It's a historical fact. Slavery was a HUGE component of colonial economies. Do you think that burying your head in the sand and pretending it didn't happen will retroactively make it go away?

I would like to give some slight pushback on this sentiment. Yes, slavery was an historical fact, and anything that discusses the period should not hide that it occurred. Even so, there are choices to be made, both in how to depict it, as well as what to focus on. The Jamaica map chooses to depict the situation completely from the point of view of the colonizer. The map depicts slaves are a resource to be exploited, and Maroons as renegade (note the connotations of that word choice, it implies they were loyal before they escaped) slaves whose territories are passive and give a bonus when taken. That is a set of choices that are less likely to be made in that way if you could easily imagine yourself in the role of the enslaved.

Whether those choices are problematic enough to warrant the removal of the map is up for debate (I'm personally inclined to say they aren't), but claiming the map is a neutral depiction of the historical situation feels disingenuous.

[Doc_Brown]

That's a fair position, though it might be interesting to back up a bit and look at a larger context. The entire focus of this game is about killing each other's troops and conquer territory. Every one of the geographic maps put you in the position of a military dictator subjugating neighboring territories to your own. On the Supermax map, you get a bonus for picking up weapons like a shiv or club that are used to brutally beat other prisoners. You can also get one for controlling the prison warden and the gas chamber used to execute prisoners. Arms Race allows you to win when you launch a nuclear weapon and commit widespread destruction on a civilian population. Depending on your background, any of the maps depicting an actual military battle could be deemed horribly offensive.

The key point here is that we can easily find things to offend us if we want. Or we can recognize that this is a war game where we are simulating battles that do not actually involve real people. When we play as one of the German commanders in the WW2 Poland map, we are not embracing Nazi actions. When we play Supermax, we are not celebrating prison violence. And when we get a bonus for taking the Maroon territories on Jamaica, we are not commending the subjugation of escaped slaves. Instead, we are playing a very abstract game on maps that can educate us about realities in history. After a few games on 1982, I went and read more about the Falklands War, but I'm sure there are Argentines who would find that map very distasteful. Imagine, on the other hand, the same Jamaican map with no slaves present. One could easily make the case that such a map was whitewashing history and attempting to hide the horrors of slavery.

[SoN!c]

That's a fair position, though it might be interesting to back up a bit and look at a larger context. The entire focus of this game is about killing each other's troops and conquer territory. Every one of the geographic maps put you in the position of a military dictator subjugating neighboring territories to your own. On the Supermax map, you get a bonus for picking up weapons like a shiv or club that are used to brutally beat other prisoners. You can also get one for controlling the prison warden and the gas chamber used to execute prisoners. Arms Race allows you to win when you launch a nuclear weapon and commit widespread destruction on a civilian population. Depending on your background, any of the maps depicting an actual military battle could be deemed horribly offensive.

The key point here is that we can easily find things to offend us if we want. Or we can recognize that this is a war game where we are simulating battles that do not actually involve real people. When we play as one of the German commanders in the WW2 Poland map, we are not embracing Nazi actions. When we play Supermax, we are not celebrating prison violence. And when we get a bonus for taking the Maroon territories on Jamaica, we are not commending the subjugation of escaped slaves. Instead, we are playing a very abstract game on maps that can educate us about realities in history. After a few games on 1982, I went and read more about the Falklands War, but I'm sure there are Argentines who would find that map very distasteful. Imagine, on the other hand, the same Jamaican map with no slaves present. One could easily make the case that such a map was whitewashing history and attempting to hide the horrors of slavery.

Well said!

[.SCuD.]

As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.

You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.
.

I can only assume that you are not a lawyer BaldAdonis, because your assessment couldn't be further from the truth.

The commercial description allowing the transfer would depend, but in short the maps would always be "transferrable". Usually because they are licensed for use by the Product (in this case conquerclub) or the Organisation (Big Wham LLC) not the Person (Big Wham). In fact, in this instance they are licensed for use by the Product, conquerclub then any sale includes everything about that product, including the transfer of licensing.

There are some weird nuanced examples where ownership couldn't be "transferred", but in reality it is indeed transferred... i.e. where the Person owns the right to allow the Product, conquerclub to use the maps, but conquerclub has no right in and of itself.... however even in that instance the licensing would fundamentally be transferred because any contract of sale would require the Person to provide that right to conquerclub in perpetuity as part of the sale.

So stop it, you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Nut Shot Scott]

As I understand it, Conquer Club holds a perpetual license to use the maps solely for the purposes of the website. Ownership of the website can transfer to others without having any legal implications on the map licensing.

You should preface your legal advice by telling people you're not a lawyer, otherwise they might believe it. Non-transferable means non-transferable, even if you keep the same name.
.

I can only assume that you are not a lawyer BaldAdonis, because your assessment couldn't be further from the truth.

The commercial description allowing the transfer would depend, but in short the maps would always be "transferrable". Usually because they are licensed for use by the Product (in this case conquerclub) or the Organisation (Big Wham LLC) not the Person (Big Wham). In fact, in this instance they are licensed for use by the Product, conquerclub then any sale includes everything about that product, including the transfer of licensing.

There are some weird nuanced examples where ownership couldn't be "transferred", but in reality it is indeed transferred... i.e. where the Person owns the right to allow the Product, conquerclub to use the maps, but conquerclub has no right in and of itself.... however even in that instance the licensing would fundamentally be transferred because any contract of sale would require the Person to provide that right to conquerclub in perpetuity as part of the sale.

So stop it, you have no idea what you're talking about.

[detlef]

That's a fair position, though it might be interesting to back up a bit and look at a larger context. The entire focus of this game is about killing each other's troops and conquer territory. Every one of the geographic maps put you in the position of a military dictator subjugating neighboring territories to your own. On the Supermax map, you get a bonus for picking up weapons like a shiv or club that are used to brutally beat other prisoners. You can also get one for controlling the prison warden and the gas chamber used to execute prisoners. Arms Race allows you to win when you launch a nuclear weapon and commit widespread destruction on a civilian population. Depending on your background, any of the maps depicting an actual military battle could be deemed horribly offensive.

The key point here is that we can easily find things to offend us if we want. Or we can recognize that this is a war game where we are simulating battles that do not actually involve real people. When we play as one of the German commanders in the WW2 Poland map, we are not embracing Nazi actions. When we play Supermax, we are not celebrating prison violence. And when we get a bonus for taking the Maroon territories on Jamaica, we are not commending the subjugation of escaped slaves. Instead, we are playing a very abstract game on maps that can educate us about realities in history. After a few games on 1982, I went and read more about the Falklands War, but I'm sure there are Argentines who would find that map very distasteful. Imagine, on the other hand, the same Jamaican map with no slaves present. One could easily make the case that such a map was whitewashing history and attempting to hide the horrors of slavery.

I admit that I feel a little strange attacking the beach from the bunkers in D-Day, but like you said, I don't actually embrace Nazism when I do. No, I hit the y4 from my r6. Nothing more, nothing less.