Archipelago [Quenched]

[ZeakCytho]

Apologies, i have not read through, checked on gameplay or anything other than look at the first page, prompted by your sig.

This is a beautiful map, with vibrant colours and a really captivating tone to the graphic.

Thanks

What else is needed to make this an advanced idea?

[t-o-m]

Apologies, i have not read through, checked on gameplay or anything other than look at the first page, prompted by your sig.

This is a beautiful map, with vibrant colours and a really captivating tone to the graphic.

Thanks

What else is needed to make this an advanced idea?

i think this is an advanced idea
i think i like it now - sorry about before, its good

[ZeakCytho]

i think this is an advanced idea
i think i like it now - sorry about before, its good

By advanced idea, I meant stickied
Thanks for your support for the map now.

[t-o-m]

By advanced idea, I meant stickied

i know

[gimil]

[Adv. Idea] Im not happy with only 5 thread pages considering the amount of time this has been around thought.

[t-o-m]

well done

[Mjinga]

Thank you, gimil. We've only had a few graphical/gameplay suggestions; many of the comments in the last pages have been positive support only, with no suggestions.

And thanks, t-o-m. I saw yours was stickied too, congrats!

[jiminski]

Thank you, gimil. We've only had a few graphical/gameplay suggestions; many of the comments in the last pages have been positive support only, with no suggestions.

hehe it seems "it's pretty" is not cutting much mustard as a comment in these parts!

well just a thought (and i am very much a noooob in these matters; regarding cartographic process.. or when you talk about gameplay are you predominantly talking bonus values or do you mean attacking options too.. anyway i will take a leap!) but perhaps you could have a volcano in the Bisham Island.. which could erupt/bombard to take the nearest territories perhaps as far as the first surrounding islet?

as to bonus's i think perhaps Bisham could be worth 1 less (3). It is worth the same as Biceror which is much more open to attack with 5 points of entry compared with in effect 3 for Bisham. (in fact biceror may be undervalued with 7 territories?)

[ZeakCytho]

well just a thought (and i am very much a noooob in these matters; regarding cartographic process.. or when you talk about gameplay are you predominantly talking bonus values or do you mean attacking options too.. anyway i will take a leap!) but perhaps you could have a volcano in the Bisham Island.. which could erupt/bombard to take the nearest territories perhaps as far as the first surrounding islet?

as to bonus's i think perhaps Bisham could be worth 1 less (3). It is worth the same as Biceror which is much more open to attack with 5 points of entry compared with in effect 3 for Bisham. (in fact biceror may be undervalued with 7 territories?)

Thanks for the input!

I prefer classic gameplay myself, but making Bishan a volcano again and then making that a territory that can bombard the rest of the island is a viable option. How do other people feel about that?

I agree with a lot of what you said about bonuses - Bishan is overvalued, Biceror undervalued. The bonuses had been left alone since version 2 because so many attack routes were changed. I think Biceror should be worth much more. Here are the bonuses I propose for v4:
Isris - 3
Bishan - 3
Biceror - 5
Thres - 4
Vienlorre - 6
Kalwar - 2

Things We Really Need Comments On:
1) Version 3a or 3b (No flags or flags)?
2) Do we need to add/remove some territories? (If so, how many?)
3) Thoughts on the bonuses I proposed above?

I'm putting up a poll on whether Bishan should be a volcano that can bombard the island in a second.

[jiminski]

I 'think' i side with you against myself on the Volcano option (just input for its sake perhaps )

I pretty much agree with your Bonus's on first evaluation much truer to the difficulty to hold... i have not examined the tactical aspect (ease and access to the rest of the board) but in general i think you have it right.


The point of 3a or 3b is a tough one...... I really like the uninterrupted vibrancy and form of the map.. it has a terrific aesthetic! it kind of alludes to cogs in motion.
.. saying that, i do really like Bisham in particular with the flag, the shape and shade evokes some kind of an unbalanced symmetry (i am aware of the contradiction)

I do have to side with the map without flags i think, due to the overall synergy of form ! .. both excellent choices though!

[Mr. Squirrel]

Things We Really Need Comments On:
1) Version 3a or 3b (No flags or flags)?
2) Do we need to add/remove some territories? (If so, how many?)
3) Thoughts on the bonuses I proposed above?

My comments:

1) I side with no flags. This is a mythical, completely hypothetical archipelago, not real nations. The flags serve no significance because nobody knows the flags of these nations. Plus, in my opinion, they make the map seem a bit more blocky and not as smooth.
2) I think the territories are fine as they are. Adding territories couldn't hurt, but I don't think they would help either. Whatever you do, don't take any away. The map has a nice fullness (meaning not too cluttered, but not too much open space either, a perfect balance) to it already that you probably don't want to alter too much.
3) The bonus's look fine to me but I think that the Biceror deserve 6 as its bonus.
4) About the bombarding volcano, I am completely against it. I like traditional standard maps and I don't think this map would look good with any gimmicks on it.

[InkL0sed]

Graphics-wise -- I'd like to see some more geographical features. You know -- forests and the like. Just a thought, but if you made it like an actual image of the place rather than just a colorful map of it, then it could look more visually compelling. It's up to you.

[wcaclimbing]

I don't really like the idea of using a volcano to bombard, but I think this map needs something. something simple, but unique.

the volcano won't work, cause how could the armies control the volcano and aim it at the enemy territories? that just wouldn't make sense.

Maybe set the map to have cannons that can bombard the coast of neighboring islands. that could get interesting. Cannons for easy bombards, lines to connect everything else.

Or maybe something else. I don't have many ideas right now. I'll post more if I think of anything.

[Mjinga]

On flags: We agree with Mr Squirell and jiminski, and no one showed strong support for them. 3a it is.

On additional doodads: I’ll give it a shot, InkLOsed. However, since it is basically a colourful map, it may not be possible. Forests on grape candy-coloured land may look a bit… odd.

On the volcano and cannons: I’ll let the poll run out of time before I try and implement any of that. But, wcaclimbing, the answer is… MAGIC! You have a very good point.

Thanks for the interest and input, guys. Much appreciated.

[jiminski]

Yeas i agree with Wc on the Volcano too.
The only way to obediently use the volcano is as a bombard or more accurately an erupt attack; taking out and making neutral all territories in a radius 2 territories deep....
interesting! .. it would be a reel doomsday defense mechanism.. and one to be used only when the odds favour it i.e. when you do not own the bonus for Bisham..

without meaning to go on about it .. i really hope you do not mess with the map too much (foliage or the like)
The whole shape appears to wheel in perpetual motion; with islets the sales of a windmill.
The colours have been chosen for their complimentary and contrasting hue.
The simple, smooth tonal gradient of the territories gives it a subtle yet dramatic impact...

hehe:- i like the look of it!

[bryguy]

im gonna guess that with the 5a and 5b u want an oppinion of which one


im gonna say 5b, but (if your using photoshop/gimp) resize the flags so they cover the whole continent that their for, and set their layer to overlay so that they are (hopefully) only on that island/continent


and im gonna have to say that the volcano should be a bombard, but that it could bombard the closest island/continent

or maybe somebody should suggest an xml thing, where for it it could be like bombard, but its done by a neutral and it keeps bombarding until its down to 1 neutral, and it could have a killer neutral on it so that it could be set back to like 10 or something if conquered.

[t-o-m]

bombard which parts exactly?
it would have to be a stratigic location where they could bombard or there wouldnt be a point of it being there, but i like the idea i vote yes

[jiminski]

bombard which parts exactly?
it would have to be a stratigic location where they could bombard or there wouldnt be a point of it being there, but i like the idea i vote yes

have a look at my 'erupt' option Tom

[Kaplowitz]

if it bombards, it should be a very TALL mountain. Sniping people from the top of a volcano seems a little tricky to me.

[sam_levi_11]

havent read ALL the thread aso this might have been suggested.....but maybe make the volcano a kiler neutral that attacks a random terit, if thats pos.

anyway i like it, seems unique

[t-o-m]

if people played with neutral zombies on, and Zeak coded the XML for it to start with say 10armies on (all neutral) then just have no boarders - then no1 could attack it and it would bombard some terits each turn, that would be a really great feature,
just gonna PM zeak

[sam_levi_11]

if people played with neutral zombies on, and Zeak coded the XML for it to start with say 10armies on (all neutral) then just have no boarders - then no1 could attack it and it would ard some terits each turn, that would be a really great feature,
just gonna PM zeak

sounds good

[ZeakCytho]

Woo, lot of comments! My comments will be in bold

Yeas i agree with Wc on the Volcano too.
The only way to obediently use the volcano is as a bombard or more accurately an erupt attack; taking out and making neutral all territories in a radius 2 territories deep.... Yes, I agree with you there. As wcaclimbing pointed out, it doesn't make sense for the volcano to be able to bombard other territories unless it is somehow controlled by the neutral player and can bombard the entire island at the same time. As far as I can tell, that's impossible given the current XML
interesting! .. it would be a reel doomsday defense mechanism.. and one to be used only when the odds favour it i.e. when you do not own the bonus for Bisham.. Are you saying a player should be able to initiate the eruption? If so, how?

without meaning to go on about it .. i really hope you do not mess with the map too much (foliage or the like)
The whole shape appears to wheel in perpetual motion; with islets the sales of a windmill.
The colours have been chosen for their complimentary and contrasting hue.
The simple, smooth tonal gradient of the territories gives it a subtle yet dramatic impact...

hehe:- i like the look of it!
Well, thanks for the compliments. Mjinga is very pleased to hear you like her handiwork . I think the main problem with doodads are that the vibrant colors of this map would make them look weird. Mjinga is working on a draft now that has some doodads on Thres, the most unnaturally colored island. If they look good on that, then we'll consider implementing them on the whole map. If they look like total crap and interfere with the style of the map you noted, then we won't use them.

im gonna guess that with the 5a and 5b u want an oppinion of which one

im gonna say 5b, but (if your using photoshop/gimp) resize the flags so they cover the whole continent that their for, and set their layer to overlay so that they are (hopefully) only on that island/continent
We tried that at first, but the problem is you have continents with non-contiguous territories, such as Biceror. This means you have patches of flags appearing on each island, but you can't piece together the whole flag. Take our word for it, it looks hideous. Also, I think the general consensus is to go with 3a.

and im gonna have to say that the volcano should be a bombard, but that it could bombard the closest island/continent
And not bombard other parts of Bishan?

or maybe somebody should suggest an xml thing, where for it it could be like bombard, but its done by a neutral and it keeps bombarding until its down to 1 neutral, and it could have a killer neutral on it so that it could be set back to like 10 or something if conquered.
That's what we would love to do, but is it worth doing an XML suggestion? How do other people feel about that? Personally, I think it's more trouble than it's worth, since it's a pretty minor part of the map when you consider everything. It's a small gameplay quirk that would be nice to have, but certainly not necessary for the map to function.

bombard which parts exactly?
it would have to be a stratigic location where they could bombard or there wouldnt be a point of it being there, but i like the idea i vote yes
See what I replied to Jiminski and Bryguy. We had, at the time of the poll-posting, thought the bombard would apply to the island of Bishan only, but that's up for debate. Once we decide if there will be a bombard at all, we can talk about where it goes.

if it bombards, it should be a very TALL mountain. Sniping people from the top of a volcano seems a little tricky to me.
The original idea was to have the bombard as a means of simulating a volcanic eruption, which is fundamentally flawed logic. See my replies to other people.

havent read ALL the thread aso this might have been suggested.....but maybe make the volcano a kiler neutral that attacks a random terit, if thats pos.
That was our original intent when making version 1 of this map. Sadly, as far as I can tell, that's not possible. See my reply to Jiminski for more.

anyway i like it, seems unique
Thanks

if people played with neutral zombies on, and Zeak coded the XML for it to start with say 10armies on (all neutral) then just have no boarders - then no1 could attack it and it would bombard some terits each turn, that would be a really great feature,
just gonna PM zeak
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think killer neutrals don't stop you from attacking the territory, only from holding it for more than your turn. Thus, a player would attack the volcano, use it to bombard other territories, and then be kicked off by the neutrals. This is better than a plain bombard, but still has the issue that wcaclimbing pointed out, namely, why would a player be able to use a volcano to bombard territories? It's not like man is capable of harnessing volcanic eruptions, let alone directing them toward a specific target territory.

Here is what Mjinga and I would like to be done with the volcano. I'm ignoring what is and is not possible with the current XML here, so just suspend reality for a bit so you can see what we'd most like to see happen:
The volcano is not a territory. The computer has the volcano erupt either every X turns, or after a random number of turns. The eruption removes Y armies from each territory on Bishan island. If the territory has less than Y armies on it, then it turns neutral with (Number of Armies - Y) neutrals on it.

Short of that, we'd prefer there to be classic gameplay. Many of the alternatives have too many holes in them described above, such as why a player could use a volcano to bombard.

I think that's everything. Thanks for your comments everyone!

[jiminski]

What i mean is that the Volcano would be a territory within Bisham. The Volcano territory can be captured from adjacent territories (and owned by the player) but it only has the ability to attack as an eruption (and turning the territories neutral in the normal bombard style).
i.e. when you attack from the volcano it erupts and attack all territories within 1 or 2 territory radius. The difference is that it will attack using the dice as normal but will take troops from your territories along with your opponent. (eg. if you rolled a 6 6 and the defending dice rolled a 5 5 all surrounding territories, yours and opposition, would lose 2 troops!)

This Means you can only use it in extreme circumstance, otherwise you could kill more of your own troops than your opponents.
That way it remains true to the Volcano logic but can also be be used as a last alternative attacking tool.

[Mr. Squirrel]

I am still all for not having any gimmicks on the volcano. If you want to add anything to improve gameplay, why not add some ports? This is an archipelago after all, there has to be a few harbors somewhere? Make it so that the ports are part of no continent, but just allow attacking between countries. This would still keep a somewhat standard style map, but will add a little extra to the map. Just a suggestion.

Or, if you reeeeeeeally want to add some gimmicks (which I don't suggest, but nonetheless, ) why don't you add some sea monsters between some of the key ocean passes. These monsters could be killed and traversed (by capturing them) but they would revert back to neutral at the end of the player's turn, plus they would add to the mythical ocean theme. I know this concept is possible because the Arms Race map in the final forge uses a similar concept on its missile launch territories.