WWII Europe

[lt_oddball]

a way to get a feeling in which way a player in one corner is having an advantage or not over the other players is to look at how many territories he has to conquer to get a simple to defend chunk of continents...

This is just speculating, but if you take the example of a 3 player gridlock then
the western player has a good position with 22 lands (choke points S6, S3, V4, V6)* yielding 20 men or 29 lands (S6, S3, N2)* yielding 28 men
The Central player can "relax" after 26 lands (G3, B1, B4, P5) yielding 26 men and
the eastern player has a bigger task ahead: 45 lands (VR2, VB5,VL2) yielding 46 new men //or in comparison with a territory with 20-30 lands:(L7, VB2,VR2) with 27 lands yielding 25 new men.

Yah..I think this balances it quite well...and pretty soon the german player has to decide whether to take on the western player in W-Germany to keep him small, or to venture out in the vacuum of the "von" Areas before the eastern player controls all that space..

Nice !

*I forgot: The V2 missiles..that requires troops to deploy as defense in Britain; 1 extra choke point..

[Qwert]

Funny,i dont see for ages Gimil or oaktown to look map and to tell what is need for Graphic or Gameplay stamp.

[Androidz]

Come to think about it +3 might be a bit large for britain. Like fogames i belive most people will forget about that place.

I dont want another Indochina map which has that +3 which was way to large. atleast make it a 2. or 1.

[lt_oddball]

Come to think about it +3 might be a bit large for britain. Like fogames i belive most people will forget about that place.

I dont want another Indochina map which has that +3 which was way to large. atleast make it a 2. or 1.

don't agree..normally, when you have a "continent" you build up forces in the continent, you clear out its territories and have to worry about ONLY a handful of chokepoints immediately afterwards.
Here you clean out britain..but you have no direct means of taking out the threat of the V2 missiles..in worst case you have to fight all the way thru France and Siegfried to take out that threat ..meanwhile always throwing in defenses on Britain, more troops and defenses on the acquired lands of the V2 missiles and the path to it...
So, the +3 can stay..it has proved its merits in the W-europe map..

[Qwert]

It oddbal is right,you must Defend all three terittory to get bounses,and Britain can be easy eliminated from game,if someon attack all three terittory.

[InkL0sed]

I don't like the name "Central Front". It doesn't make too much sense... I think I'd prefer something more like Nazi Germany...

[Qwert]

by InkL0sed on Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:11 pm

I don't like the name "Central Front". It doesn't make too much sense... I think I'd prefer something more like Nazi Germany...

Sorry i can not put Nazi Germany,because these area cover Central Europe.

[oaktown]

I was going to give this map some time but got in late... in the next day or two, I promise!

[yeti_c]

I don't like the name "Central Front". It doesn't make too much sense... I think I'd prefer something more like Nazi Germany...

I've been saying this for like forever...

How can you actually have a "Central Front"?

The definition of "Front" is the "Front" of the war zone - this area isn't a "Front" it's a Zone in the middle of Two "Fronts"!?!

C.

[Qwert]

I've been saying this for like forever...

How can you actually have a "Central Front"?

The definition of "Front" is the "Front" of the war zone - this area isn't a "Front" it's a Zone in the middle of Two "Fronts"!?!

C.

I all ready find far before,that Western Allies have operation plan for opening Central front against germany,but never been funcionaly,because very fast fail of Germany. Do i need again to find these and present(i find these on Wikipedia).

[asl80]

Not sure on the whole photo upload shenanigans, but here's one possible demonstration of a central front (though in a different context - so just for linguistic verification) ...

__Western opposing fighting people's front____Central opposing fighting front___Eastern Opposing fighting front__

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||fight this way please (i.e. down/south) |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

_____________________________ One very splendid group of fighters defending the lot _______________________

i.e. where central is synonymous with middle.

[yeti_c]

Not sure on the whole photo upload shenanigans, but here's one possible demonstration of a central front (though in a different context - so just for linguistic verification) ...

__Western opposing fighting people's front____Central opposing fighting front___Eastern Opposing fighting front__

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||fight this way please (i.e. down/south) |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

_____________________________ One very splendid group of fighters defending the lot _______________________

i.e. where central is synonymous with middle.

Looks like 1 long front to me. - with central, eastern & western regions.

C.

[Qwert]

by asl80 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:54 pm

Not sure on the whole photo upload shenanigans, but here's one possible demonstration of a central front (though in a different context - so just for linguistic verification) ...

__Western opposing fighting people's front____Central opposing fighting front___Eastern Opposing fighting front__

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||fight this way please (i.e. down/south) |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

_____________________________ One very splendid group of fighters defending the lot _______________________

i.e. where central is synonymous with middle.

Now i must say that i dont quit understand what you say?

[asl80]

hehehehe ... your all mad ... it makes perfect sense ... to me ... hehehehe
ok, i admit, was abit late in the evening for that one ... back to the drawing board i guess

[oaktown]

alright, this has been a long time coming from me, so it may be long... maybe I'm forgetting some things, and maybe these things have already been said, but here it is anyway.

• You have done a really good job with the army circle placements. They are close, but there are only a few numbers that I think might bump into each other when using color codes or on really large numbers. Maybe you could drop the E3 circle so the E2 number isn't parallel. N6 could drop a bit also. And N5 is close to two circles, and could mean misdeployments.

• "WTF" is a territory - LOL!

• Central front - I agree with the above posters that there may be a better way to describe this area. A "front" is a linear region along which fighting occurs - if you're going to show the eastern and western "fronts" on this map, you should call the interior something else... like "Interior." You could also call it the "Axis Powers," "Central Europe," or just "Central Zone."

Note also that by drawing those lines and calling them the western and eastern fronts you are assuming a German point of view... to the Russians, the "Eastern Front" was just the "Front." (Much like how in China, "Chinese food" is simply called "food".)

• On a related note, take a look at the Balkan Front - a conglomeration of eight territories doesn't seem to make a single front. Maybe just call that region the "balkans" ?

• Other than the fact that it is the end of your other two maps, do the impassable front lines actually represent anything? Becaause I'm not sure that there was a time in which the Germans held Poland and the Balkans, but didn't hold Köln and the rest of Western Germany.

• The bonus indicators are poorly placed in the legend. The numbers look like ther go with the names to their right, not their left. For example, it took me a minute to figure out why there was no star where Berlin should be, because the legend makes it look like the star indicates Berlin.

• The inset map may be the best way to explain the tight area, but I really don't like that this seems to be the new way around representing tight spaces... this is your second consecutive map that had to make use of the inset. I personally think it is clumsy to look back and forth to see S6 and W1 when they are adjoining, but like I said it's probably the best way to make this map work. What would help is if you could represent some of the numbers twice - I would like to see the "F" and "W" army counts shown on the mini-map AND on the regular map. Is this possible? Yeti?

• I think you need the territory names in the inset map.

• You have two sets of stars, which could be confusing... maybe in the legend you could say "Hold any three western stars" and "Hold all Russian stars."

• There's a lot going on around VL1, and the army count isn't even there yet - maybe lose the submarine or whatever that graphic is?

• In some places rivers are crossable with arrows, while in other places the rivers just seem to disappear... for instance, the two rivers shown near VL5 are two rivers, or one? And if it's one, why is it crossable with arrows at VL3? Inconsistent.

• I haven't looked at all of the bonuses closely, but the one that jumps out at me is Eastern Germany: with the berlin bonus, it's a +3 for four territories with two borders. Your other +3 regions are considerably larger/harder to hold, eg. N.Italy with 6 territories and 3 borders.

And a graphics concern: some of the graphic elements don't look so good now that they've been shrunk. The rockets look off, and the defenses in the western part of the map just look like little bumps - could be mountains, could be bumkers, could be gumdrops.

Whew! Keep up the good work qwert - I think you've done a wonderful job making this fit.

[Qwert]

by oaktown on Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:25 am

alright, this has been a long time coming from me, so it may be long... maybe I'm forgetting some things, and maybe these things have already been said, but here it is anyway.

• You have done a really good job with the army circle placements. They are close, but there are only a few numbers that I think might bump into each other when using color codes or on really large numbers. Maybe you could drop the E3 circle so the E2 number isn't parallel. N6 could drop a bit also. And N5 is close to two circles, and could mean misdeployments.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to agree with me,that i left these for now,and when i start with XMl,will much easy move army circle in better area.
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• "WTF" is a territory - LOL!

-------------------------------------------------
What is problem with that?WTF is shortcut for Western Task Force.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

• Central front - I agree with the above posters that there may be a better way to describe this area. A "front" is a linear region along which fighting occurs - if you're going to show the eastern and western "fronts" on this map, you should call the interior something else... like "Interior." You could also call it the "Axis Powers," "Central Europe," or just "Central Zone."

-------------------------------------------------------------
I dont get that,i dont understand why people dont want to listen what i wrote several times,and still dont come in people brain. Central Front exist in Allied plans,but not become operative because German Colaps.How many time i must repeat these.Nobody call some front with Zones.Zone is not word for area where people fight in large terittory.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Note also that by drawing those lines and calling them the western and eastern fronts you are assuming a German point of view... to the Russians, the "Eastern Front" was just the "Front." (Much like how in China, "Chinese food" is simply called "food".)

------------------------------------------------------------
I write in English and i know that english call these Eastern Front,in Russian is Великая Отечественная война(these mean Great Patriotic War,or in Serbian Велики Отачбински рат)
----------------------------------------------------------------

• On a related note, take a look at the Balkan Front - a conglomeration of eight territories doesn't seem to make a single front. Maybe just call that region the "balkans" ?

--------------------------------------------------------
Well probably you right-i will change these in Balkan,also i will change Polish front to Poland.
------------------------------------------------------------------

• Other than the fact that it is the end of your other two maps, do the impassable front lines actually represent anything? Becaause I'm not sure that there was a time in which the Germans held Poland and the Balkans, but didn't hold Köln and the rest of Western Germany.

-------------------------------------------------------------
When i create Western and eastern front,i try to represent very good area who cover these war fronts.Western front area is cover max advance of Western Allies.From other side Rusian call Eastern front all area where they fight(including Berlin),also they capture Vienna and Prague.But these not be possible to create and i create Eastern Front from view of Germans,and these is line where German start hes Barbarosa operation. I hope that these is more clear for you,but i these explane all ready in related topic(western Front map-Eastern front map)unfortunatly people forget that,and i must repeat these many times more.
-------------------------------------------------------------
•

The bonus indicators are poorly placed in the legend. The numbers look like ther go with the names to their right, not their left. For example, it took me a minute to figure out why there was no star where Berlin should be, because the legend makes it look like the star indicates Berlin.

-------------------------------------------------------------
I dont see any problem with that,because when you look Western front you will not tell"hey these country not have bonus".These is taken from Western and eastern front legend,and i belive that its not comlicated for people.Stars-Yellow stars present Allied(american use yellow stars)-Red stars present Russian army,and Iron Cross present German army and berlin(these is logical)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

•

The inset map may be the best way to explain the tight area, but I really don't like that this seems to be the new way around representing tight spaces... this is your second consecutive map that had to make use of the inset. I personally think it is clumsy to look back and forth to see S6 and W1 when they are adjoining, but like I said it's probably the best way to make this map work. What would help is if you could represent some of the numbers twice - I would like to see the "F" and "W" army counts shown on the mini-map AND on the regular map. Is this possible? Yeti?

----------------------------------------------------------------
You mean two circle with diferent coordinates who represent one Army number? I think that these is not possible.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

• I think you need the territory names in the inset map.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Well some names can stay but Ardennes is not possible to put,even in main map ardennes fit somehow,In large image these will be possible(i hope so)
-------------------------------------------------------------------

•

You have two sets of stars, which could be confusing... maybe in the legend you could say "Hold any three western stars" and "Hold all Russian stars."

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Well these is issue for Player IQ-i think that people with normal IQ Will very quick understand that in legend you have two diferent stars and that "Hold any three start"belong to Western Front,that "hold three start"belong to Eastern Front.Ofcourse people who all ready play Western or eastern Front will be in advantage and much faster will connect what is what.
---------------------------------------------------------------

• There's a lot going on around VL1, and the army count isn't even there yet - maybe lose the submarine or whatever that graphic is?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
I dont see that these can couse some problems,even when numbers come,then you will not see all sumbarine.I can not imagine that someon will tell"hey why i can attack submarine".
----------------------------------------------------------------

• In some places rivers are crossable with arrows, while in other places the rivers just seem to disappear... for instance, the two rivers shown near VL5 are two rivers, or one? And if it's one, why is it crossable with arrows at VL3? Inconsistent.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Are you whas in sleep mode when i create Eastern Front?
----------------------------------------------------------------

• I haven't looked at all of the bonuses closely, but the one that jumps out at me is Eastern Germany: with the berlin bonus, it's a +3 for four territories with two borders. Your other +3 regions are considerably larger/harder to hold, eg. N.Italy with 6 territories and 3 borders.

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I dont know what to say on that,i give people to decide how many East Germany need to worth,so far 3 is good,maybe you can give more info abouth that?
----------------------------------------------------------------

And a graphics concern: some of the graphic elements don't look so good now that they've been shrunk. The rockets look off, and the defenses in the western part of the map just look like little bumps - could be mountains, could be bumkers, could be gumdrops.

------------------------------------------------------------------
What you expect,to be perfect map who is in begining been in 850px dimension and then whas shrink to 630px.That why i create Inset for Sigfried defence to help.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Whew! Keep up the good work qwert - I think you've done a wonderful job making this fit.

------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks i hope that you satisfy with mine answers.

[pamoa]

just a small question: why did you put a "K" for naming Finland ?

"WTF" is the abreviation for "what the f*ck"

The bonus indicators are poorly placed in the legend. The numbers look like ther go with the names to their right, not their left. For example, it took me a minute to figure out why there was no star where Berlin should be, because the legend makes it look like the star indicates Berlin.

I dont see any problem with that,because when you look Western front you will not tell"hey these country not have bonus".These is taken from Western and eastern front legend,and i belive that its not comlicated for people.Stars-Yellow stars present Allied(american use yellow stars)-Red stars present Russian army,and Iron Cross present German army and berlin(these is logical).

Maybe just flip horizontally the helmet symbol so the number is left

There's a lot going on around VL1, and the army count isn't even there yet - maybe lose the submarine or whatever that graphic is?-.

I dont see that these can couse some problems,even when numbers come,then you will not see all sumbarine.I can not imagine that someon will tell"hey why i can attack submarine".

It's just a bit blury around army circle, there is a lot of graphic noise

[Androidz]

just a small question: why did you put a "K" for naming Finland ?

"WTF" is the abreviation for "what the f*ck"

The bonus indicators are poorly placed in the legend. The numbers look like ther go with the names to their right, not their left. For example, it took me a minute to figure out why there was no star where Berlin should be, because the legend makes it look like the star indicates Berlin.

I dont see any problem with that,because when you look Western front you will not tell"hey these country not have bonus".These is taken from Western and eastern front legend,and i belive that its not comlicated for people.Stars-Yellow stars present Allied(american use yellow stars)-Red stars present Russian army,and Iron Cross present German army and berlin(these is logical).

Maybe just flip horizontally the helmet symbol so the number is left

There's a lot going on around VL1, and the army count isn't even there yet - maybe lose the submarine or whatever that graphic is?-.

I dont see that these can couse some problems,even when numbers come,then you will not see all sumbarine.I can not imagine that someon will tell"hey why i can attack submarine".

It's just a bit blury around army circle, there is a lot of graphic noise

WTF is a good word:). Since its a one way suprise attack. Think about green being attacked from wtf. then he say WTF i just got owned by a task force. WTF must stay cause its fits.

[Qwert]

pamoa
just a small question: why did you put a "K" for naming Finland ?

"WTF" is the abreviation for "what the f*ck"

----------------------------------------------------
K-Karelia
Its look that WTF is have more meaning,but still for me mean Western Task Force.
--------------------------------------

Maybe just flip horizontally the helmet symbol so the number is left

----------------------------
These is a joke right?

[oaktown]

I'm not sure why I spent 30 minutes looking at this map... point by point you disregarded everything I had to say. Some of the points I made are, in my opinion, necessary changes - like putting the territory names next to the army circles, and putting the region names next to the bonuses. These are common features of every CC map for a reason.

[Qwert]

by oaktown on Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:10 pm

I'm not sure why I spent 30 minutes looking at this map... point by point you disregarded everything I had to say. Some of the points I made are, in my opinion, necessary changes - like putting the territory names next to the army circles, and putting the region names next to the bonuses. These are common features of every CC map for a reason.

Now these is not true.
1.Issue-i agree with you,but say that is better to fix when XML is finish.
2.issue-WTF-you are not be precise with that.
3.Issue-Central Front-i give valid explanation
4.issue- Balkan front-i agree with you.
5.issue-you put question-i give you answer
6.issue-bonus indicator-you give your view but not give solution.
7.issue-XML issue -these is question for XML experts
8.issue-name in inset-i give you answer that Ardennes can not fit in inset.
9.issue-stars-i give you explanation
10.issue-submarine issue-i dont think that when numbers come,that sumbarine can cause some problems,and i must disagree with that,
11.issue-berlin bonuses-i give you answer who is not against yours opinion.
12.issue-graphic concerne-you give your point of view without solution for that.

Now where you find that i refuse all yours issue.

[InkL0sed]

Well these is issue for Player IQ-i think that people with normal IQ Will very quick understand that in legend you have two diferent stars and that "Hold any three start"belong to Western Front,that "hold three start"belong to Eastern Front.Ofcourse people who all ready play Western or eastern Front will be in advantage and much faster will connect what is what.

I disagree completely with this sentiment. You cannot simply say that "any intelligent person would figure it out." Legends are supposed to be clear, not a puzzle for someone to solve.

I dont get that,i dont understand why people dont want to listen what i wrote several times,and still dont come in people brain. Central Front exist in Allied plans,but not become operative because German Colaps.How many time i must repeat these.Nobody call some front with Zones.Zone is not word for area where people fight in large terittory.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. The fact remains that the word "front" does not make any sense here.

[lt_oddball]

It's too much trouble now to quote and paste, so I do some remarks in support of qwert:

The basis for this large map is the exact inclusion of the two separate maps west and east front. There were to be no changes in names, borders or bonuszone values. I was hoping to see some changes in impassable barriers too, but the accepted fact is the above principle.
That makes a lot of the oaktown comments obsolete.That explains the large impassable unnatural border. It is only a gamemap border.

east front central front, west front... what's in a name? It 's only a name in top of the legend WITHOUT any particular game significance.
It suits the german point of view..but even today , the historians dealing with this period (anglosaxons, europeans and russians that ARE objective and NOT patriotic) use these same front names.
Or have you read about the landings in Normandy being the eastern front for the americans ?
And how would you think that the Germans would call a US parachute attack smack in the middle of Berlin while other US troops were still at the Rhine and Soviets in warschau ? West front ? Nah front ? Reichskanzlei front ?
This is a map for GAMEPLAY not recreation of history. If someone pushes from the balkans up in austria to berlin..then hell yes..it IS a central front (or must it be South front ?).
It's no big deal.

And yes, static a front is a line..but dynamically (over a period of time)that front line covers a vast area of battles. so to appoint a gamemap area of provinces, lands, nations as a "front" is not unusual.


Differences in bonus between some zones (Egermany vs Italy) has been argumented before...look at what significance these zones have when from a party of 8 players there are only 3 or 4 left...think where the likely basis of these 3 or 4 would be..then compare who is having an edge over the others..then adjust some bonuses to add balance.
You do have learnt that in the large maps (waterloo, Pearl harbour) there are only 1 or 2 areas from which the eventual winner will come.
And how frustrating it is if you are in the other corner and see how that develops long before any of the other noobs understand it..

[Qwert]

I disagree completely with this sentiment. You cannot simply say that "any intelligent person would figure it out." Legends are supposed to be clear, not a puzzle for someone to solve.

Do you want to tell that legend is not clear for you to?

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. The fact remains that the word "front" does not make any sense here.

Well its look that need again research and find facts, and present it again. I realy dont understand why people dont belive, when i say that Allied call these Central Front,not zone or some other names. Why you create problem with name Central Front?

[yeti_c]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. The fact remains that the word "front" does not make any sense here.

Well its look that need again research and find facts, and present it again. I realy dont understand why people dont belive, when i say that Allied call these Central Front,not zone or some other names. Why you create problem with name Central Front?

Your argument falls down here. - You have "Western Front" & "Eastern Front" - these are the german definitions of the fronts...

Then you want to call the middle bit "Central Front" from the Allies perspective?! - It needs changing - it doesn't make sense - it isn't a front.

C.