Peloponnesian War [Done]

[gimil]

qwert, you still don't seem to undertstand. I am sure that everyone else loves your map. As a community member I still feel it is my right to give you my opinion of your map. When I said my concern that was purly my own, true opinion. And if my opinion was shot down respectfully and maturlly I would have no problem with that.

There is many maps with may things I do not agree with, fortunatly in the spirit of the foundry if people don't agree with my concerns I do not hold it against a map. I have stamped plenty of maps with plenty of my issues still intacked but because plenty of people reasonably and maturly disagree and rebuttel my concerns, I can live with the issues.

From WM to RJ to Cairns I can safely say they all have maps that have plenty of thing I disagree with, the difference between them and you is that they have the maturity to discuss my concerns in a civil manner while you just take everything as a personal attack and refuse point blank to play fairly like everyone else.

[Qwert]

I understand,but from your first post when you agree with Oaktown Oppinion

this map looks almost exactly like your Roman Empire map

,and when you say that sea colours hurt your head, i must say that im only conclude that you dont like these map, or maybe im wrongly understand these your post. So please what is wrong with these map, please post.
If you say that WM RJ and Cairn have plenty thing what you not agree, why only mine maps must have problems. When people like
Balsiefen,
ZeakCytho,
Whitestazn88,
Asl88,
Incadenza,
MrBenn(who give first stamp,and dont say nothin bad abouth present Graphic)
E_I_pi,
The Neon Peon,
Androidz
,Bryguy
,MarVal
,Hulmey
(and 10-15 others who im not put names because not see to posted to much in Map foundry).Accepted Graphic.


Problems start from page 9-When Yeti say that can not read names,and several people say that its good readabile.
Oaktown say that map look like Roman Empire.
Gimil agree with that.,and dont like colours.
Mibi with hes personal oppinion-These map is Chart junk.

Also i must say that im whas have great cooperation with people,and we implement thing with decend disscusion,and nobody say that these map look like Roman empire,and that need to change graphic view of map.
Main problem is that all these people not decide when will these map get Graphic or Gameplay stamp,these give you for Graphic, and if you can not say "well almost all people like Graphic design of these map,then i will need to accept that" and we will not have any problems,like in EUROPE 1914,when you show only 2 time, first to move map from Map Draft to Main forum,and second after 2 month to give Stamp.

[Incandenza]

If i only from begining know how many problems will cause swords(to you) i will newer add these bonuses,now im thinking to remove these bonuses,because i dont want to cause more problems with that. I create sword bonuses and i will remove,because i dont want to erase territories only because swords, also i dont understand how territories with numbers can cause any problems.

Well, I think the sword bonuses should stay, they gtive people an extra incentive to try and move faster than their opponents. Plus I think that room could be made in the west for one more sword icon. I'm not trying to just eliminate terits 'cause I feel like it.

Territories is importan,because when you play with cards, if im erase some territories,and if im unite some territories,then some players will have less easy territories to take for cards,and skyros will then have problem to take territories with 6 neutrals.

Okay, that's a fair point, so let's see. According to the map at the bottom of page 12, here's the number of "easy" terits for each starting point:
Pontus 7
Lemnians 7
Icaria 8
Persians 5
Skyros 5
Romans 6
Illyrians 7
Dardanians 7

It's already unbalanced, so you're going to want to tweak the neutrals and connections a bit.

As far as the numbers, well, they're weird, and a bit confusing, especially since it doesn't look like you're going to have a legend where you give the proper terit names. If you did abbreviations, like with Europa, that might work. But overall, I think you could eliminate or consolidate a few terits and not have the numbers at all. It'll be a better looking, more coherent, slightly less confusing map.

I mean Corinthians and Megarians: if you put a shaded box on the main map, you could get rid of the 1 and 2 on the main map, and just have the terits named in the inset

I realy need some visual explanation of these.

Well, I can't use photoshop for shit, so I had to find an image on the interwebs:



You kind of have to use your imagination a bit, but it would be something like this, without the shaded bits connecting the large and small boxes. Basically a box or something around the 2 terits on the main map that's a better indicator that those terits are actually in the inset. Plus you won't have to label them "1" and "2" on the main map.

[Qwert]

Incandenza-i will see what i can do with all these.ok

These last its not going to work,but maybe i have some

[Incandenza]

Thanks, qwert.

[Qwert]

Well i think that poll show that people prefere 50% darken colour of sea,so i will update these decision,and poll can be removed.

[gimil]

What opacity is best?

-NORMAL
5
24%

-20%
1
5%

-30%
1
5%

-40%
3
14%

-50%
11
52%


Total votes : 21

[Qwert]

new update
-implement poll decision
-implement many things from Incandenza
-add map inset conection with map(incandenza your sugestion is to much SF for these map,these is more simler)
-many changes with territory,remove numbers and add full names
-Locrians is now one territory instead two former territory 3. and 4.
-Add Swords to west

Click image to enlarge.

[gimil]

Qwert the darker version with the image/texture in the backgroud is much much better.

Some concerns I hold:
-I had a hard time working out where the inset map fit into the fit. I know you have arrows going from the play area to the inset but it isn't very noticable I think something needs to be done to make this more noticable. Maybe making the arrows black will make them stand out a little better.
-'Capture all the sheilds to win the war' I think it sounds better if it was 'Capture all 8 sheilds to win the war'. I think that is much better than having 'the' twice in the one sentence.

I have a few more but they need longer explainations which I am to tierd to do tonight.

[Incandenza]

Right on, qwert. I'm on a business trip right now and can hardly keep my eyes open, but I'll have a look and comment over the weekend.

[Qwert]

by gimil » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:09 am

Qwert the darker version with the image/texture in the backgroud is much much better.

Some concerns I hold:
-1.I had a hard time working out where the inset map fit into the fit. I know you have arrows going from the play area to the inset but it isn't very noticable I think something needs to be done to make this more noticable. Maybe making the arrows black will make them stand out a little better.
-2.'Capture all the sheilds to win the war' I think it sounds better if it was 'Capture all 8 sheilds to win the war'. I think that is much better than having 'the' twice in the one sentence.

I have a few more but they need longer explainations which I am to tierd to do tonight.

1. I have great idea to solve these very fast,what ever you present me i will take and put in map instead mine arrows who show where is inset. I realy dont want to create another problems with these,because i belive that its very noticabile for people,but if im want to make you happy and satisfy,then every solution what you give me i will put, if people dont like,then these is hes problem.
2. Ok these is not problem to change.

[rjz115dude]

i like this map alot, my only worry is that it might be too confusing, and the font for the names of the terretories might be too small

[Incandenza]

Okay, first off, let's look at "easy" terits for each starting point:
Pontus 7 (five 2's, one 3, one 1, with a helmet and a sword)
Lemnians 7 (four 2's, one 3, two 1's, with a helmet and a shield)
Icaria 6 (four 2's, one 3, one 1, with a helmet and two shields)
Persians 7 (six 2's, one 3, with a helmet and a sword)
Skyros 5 (four 2's, one 3, with a helmet and one shield)
Romans 6 (five 2's, one 3, with a helmet and a sword)
Illyrians 6 (four 2's, one 3, one 1, with a helmet)
Dardanians 7 (six 2's, one 3, with a helmet and one shield)

So it's still a little unbalanced. You could get Icaria (btw, shouldn't it be "Icarians"?) to 7 by turning Phocaea into a 2, Pergamenes into a 6, and splitting Mysians into 2 terits.

And you could get Skyros, Romans, and Illyrians to 7 by doing the following:
turn Perrhaebians into a 6 and extending it north to share a border with Macedonians (plus you'd probably want to move the helmet from Thessalians to Perrhaebians)
turn Elimiotes into a 2 and get rid of its border with Macedonians
extend the mountains to eliminate the border between Phthiotians and Dolopes
turn Dolopes into a 2
turn Malians into a 6
add a border between Euboeans (or Peparethos) and Phthiotians (or Magnetes)
add a border between Euboeans and Boeotians
maybe eliminate the border between Euboeans and Malians

If I've managed to keep everything straight, that should give everyone 7 easy terits, while keeping 6's between spheres of influence.

Also, Cnidians and Achaeans could probably be turned into 1's.

Speaking of Achaeans, I want to talk about the SW Peninsula. Right now, Skyros has a major inside track to take all those terits, so maybe you could add some connections to give Romans and Persians a better entry into the peninsula to encourage fighting: maybe from Dorian Cycladians to Lacedaemonians, and from Cephallenians to Eleans, and obviously turning Eleans and Lacedaemonians into 6's (and maybe getting rid of the helmet on Lacedaemonians, otherwise whoever locks down the peninsula will have a prohibitive advantage in no cards games).

Whew. So that's what I got at the moment... have no fear, we're getting closer. I'm extremely satisfied with how the gameplay on this map has evolved.

[Qwert]

I will check all these what you sugested,but some things is confusing like.
>and splitting Mysians into 2 terits< these what im not understand
>turn Elimiotes into a 2 and get rid of its border with Macedonians<what you mean with that, its like USA not BOarded with Canada or Mexico.
Im not look like you these gameplay,im look in these way
Pontus have stronger neigbours
Dardanians is equal with hes neigbours
Romans is equal
Icarians also
Persians also
Scyrians is smaler,but have privilege to be closer to Peninsula
Lemnians is similar to hes heigbours.
Illyrians is also similar to hes heigbours.

Now if i start to change territories borders and to put countries to be neigbours there where is no logic,then these map will be odd.
You want to be all equal number of easy territories,ok i will replace mountains and try to create much possible to all have same numbers of easy territories.

Speaking of Achaeans, I want to talk about the SW Peninsula. Right now, Skyros has a major inside track to take all those terits, so maybe you could add some connections to give Romans and Persians a better entry into the peninsula to encourage fighting: maybe from Dorian Cycladians to Lacedaemonians, and from Cephallenians to Eleans, and obviously turning Eleans and Lacedaemonians into 6's (and maybe getting rid of the helmet on Lacedaemonians, otherwise whoever locks down the peninsula will have a prohibitive advantage in no cards games).

What is point of peninsula if all players have enty to peninsula? Persians is all ready Equal with Scyrians(equal only 4 territories is distance from Athenians).Like you see,scyrians can not only to move into peninsual,because hes opponents is close to hes territoriues(Persians and Romans)

[Qwert]

New update-now all opponent have same number of easy territory-7, except Pontus who have 8,but i think that these is not so big advantage agaist other.
As concerne of Peninsula,with change of advance routes,now Scyrians,Persians and Romans its in same distances, and scyrians dont have advantage. Also i change a little design of sign who show where is map inset, i hope that now its noticabile.

Click image to enlarge.

[oVo]

It's a beauty of a map... I'll have to ponder the gameplay a bit
but I like the objective: Possess all 8 shields to win the war.

[gimil]

Qwert could you move Imbrians territory name closer to the army circle please? I feel it is a little to far off at the moment.

I am also for 100% sold on the mini map connection, allthough it is an improvment so I think I can live with it unless someone else can come up with a better idea for it.

On your legends you have 'objectives' but since that is plural and you only have the one mission I think it should be 'objective'. I am not sure of that grammar thou so many someone else can put light on this issue?

[Incandenza]

Yes, it should just be the singular "objective".

Gameplay's very close, just taking a last look to see if there's anything else...

[Qwert]

by gimil » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:32 pm

Qwert could you move Imbrians territory name closer to the army circle please? I feel it is a little to far off at the moment.

I am also for 100% sold on the mini map connection, allthough it is an improvment so I think I can live with it unless someone else can come up with a better idea for it.

On your legends you have 'objectives' but since that is plural and you only have the one mission I think it should be 'objective'. I am not sure of that grammar thou so many someone else can put light on this issue?

ok,these will go in first page -to-do list for Final Forge-i belive that these belonge to that stage,because these is very minor things.

[gimil]

by gimil » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:32 pm

Qwert could you move Imbrians territory name closer to the army circle please? I feel it is a little to far off at the moment.

I am also for 100% sold on the mini map connection, allthough it is an improvment so I think I can live with it unless someone else can come up with a better idea for it.

On your legends you have 'objectives' but since that is plural and you only have the one mission I think it should be 'objective'. I am not sure of that grammar thou so many someone else can put light on this issue?

ok,these will go in first page -to-do list for Final Forge-i belive that these belonge to that stage,because these is very minor things.

It wouldn't take much to do just now thou would it?

[Qwert]

Gimil-you today notice two realy minor FF thing,right. I can do these in 1 minute,then i upload image,and tomorow some other find new very minor FF things.
Is these not better to collect 8-10-15 minor things instead to uploading map 15 times,you know these is not fun. Now its in to-do list in page 1,and i will not forget to change these,also if some new thing will find,then i will put also in to-do list. I think that you agree with that.

[gimil]

Gimil-you today notice two realy minor FF thing,right. I can do these in 1 minute,then i upload image,and tomorow some other find new very minor FF things.
Is these not better to collect 8-10-15 minor things instead to uploading map 15 times,you know these is not fun. Now its in to-do list in page 1,and i will not forget to change these,also if some new thing will find,then i will put also in to-do list. I think that you agree with that.

I can live with that, as long as you don't forget

[Qwert]

I can live with that, as long as you don't forget

Its all ready in page 1,no chance to forget.

[MrBenn]

Right, before you jump on me, I'm posting here as a member of the community, and not in any official CA role.

I'm really disappointed that the graphics still look so similar to Imperium Romanium - I had hoped that there would be bigger differences between the two maps.

I'm still not quite convinced that there is an equal balance between capturing the objective and eliminating your opponents - you have a great opportunity here to get something that hasn't quite been managed on any of the objective maps.

The inset really sucks - and the line going to it looks like an attack line rather than anything that's going to help anybody work it out. I really do think it would be better if you redrew/distorted the land to get rid of the need for it. If you keep it (as I expect you will) then pleas get rid of that fat dotted line, which looks completely out of place.

Finally, I'm not fully convinced that this map has the support it needs to move up a step. I've looked back, and there just aren't a great deal of people commentating...

[Qwert]

by MrBenn » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:41 am

1.Right, before you jump on me, I'm posting here as a member of the community, and not in any official CA role.

2.I'm really disappointed that the graphics still look so similar to Imperium Romanium - I had hoped that there would be bigger differences between the two maps.

3.I'm still not quite convinced that there is an equal balance between capturing the objective and eliminating your opponents - you have a great opportunity here to get something that hasn't quite been managed on any of the objective maps.

4.The inset really sucks - and the line going to it looks like an attack line rather than anything that's going to help anybody work it out. I really do think it would be better if you redrew/distorted the land to get rid of the need for it. If you keep it (as I expect you will) then pleas get rid of that fat dotted line, which looks completely out of place.

5.Finally, I'm not fully convinced that this map has the support it needs to move up a step. I've looked back, and there just aren't a great deal of people commentating...

1.Will se abouth that
2.Welcome to CA club-only CA think that these map is bad,because think that its look like IMperium romanum,all other people think that map is good and dont have any bad things abouth that.
5.Equal Balance?Please need more explanation abouth that.
4.Ok,like i say in previous post-if you have some better for point arrows,then please give me to put in map,after all i will make you happy,and solve these problem, if you dont have,then please remove words SUCKS-these word dont have any helpful options.
5.What you mean? 30 people say that map is good,its these not good enough-do i need to open poll,to people give me support or what? Please explane these better.