Re: WWI: Gallipoli [9.9.15] V39 (p22) [Quenched]

[Gillipig]

This can be the maps theme song:


Rock + History = Magic

This looks like a promising theme.

[cairnswk]

Well. pls keep on topic Gillipig, thanks

[cairnswk]

Version 20
1. one-way arrows have been fixed as requested by tnb80
2. objective removed as requested by tnb80
3. Kumkali has been split in two - reason: there was a gun battery at Kumkali that bombarded the opposite Helles shore...this is now inserted and marked on map and legend...this will now be one of the starting points.
4. KK Beach is the other resulting landing territory.
5. Land Batteries have been added to Gaba Tepe and Gendarmerie and appropriate target positions on land and the landing vessels from Anzac Cove north are included in these targets.
6. Some re-organisation of the legend has taken place, including moving the Losing Condition to the top under the story where it is more visisble to start.
7. Some texture has been added to the legend.

[nolefan5311]

For the Land Batteries...is the Kum Kali battery supposed to be able to bombard say, the A Landing Beach? If not, I think you need to indicate some sort of range attack for these. Same for the battleships, but I assume you want any battleship to be able to bombard all the marked territories, no matter if it's on the other side of the map. Perhaps you should make these targets more distinguishable...change the actual color of the region or something? Since the battleships are so important, distinguishing the regions that they bombard a little more clearly would seem to jive with theme of the map. The targets tend to be a little confusing, especially with the map being so small.

Are the starting positions on the land associated with any particular battleship, or are they deployed completely randomly from the battleships you own? Nothing leads to me to believe they are associated, I was just curious.

Does Krithia village directly border Madios village? The legend indicates that villages border each other via the roads, but there is also an army circle sitting on the road in the Seri Tepe Ridge region which could lead to confusion.

The border between Kavak Tepe and Anafarta Sagir is hard to make out.

Do the Land Batteries also have normal land assault borders similar to the Forts? If not, I think it could be slightly disadvantageous having one of those as a starting position.

Have you thought about having M3 border more than just one MS ship? I'm not sure if you wanted a chokepoint directly after a killer neutral. Maybe just change the assault route to two assault routes: M3 > MS6 > MS8 and M3 > MS7 > MS9.

The Convoy Landing Ships mentioned in the legend, are those the "L" ships? I think some clarification needs to be made there.

I only count 14 starting positions on land (from north to south): Gendarmarie, Gelibolu III Corp, 3rd RIdge, Krithia, Feshkesh, F1, Saraijik, Sari Saglar Beach, Cephez Pt., Kizil-chilali, Erinkeul, Dumbrek, Kum Kali. I can't tell if Gaba Tepe is a starting position or not because it looks like there are two numbers there. If it is, that's still only 15. Doesn't seem consistent as each player in an 8 player game is going to be deployed one Battleship, it's associated L ship, and an L ship in the bottom of the map.

It's a +1 for each land territory position held, but it's also a -1 for each Landing Beach region. Maybe instead of saying that they lose one per round (which they won't, they will just maintain the troops that are already there), indicate they are not included in the Land Bonus or something?

What do you think?

[cairnswk]

Sorry for the delay in answering nolefan5311, but have been busy with other projects and uni.

For the Land Batteries...is the Kum Kali battery supposed to be able to bombard say, the A Landing Beach? If not, I think you need to indicate some sort of range attack for these.

I have adjusted those to two different colours to indicate the range.

Same for the battleships, but I assume you want any battleship to be able to bombard all the marked territories, no matter if it's on the other side of the map. Perhaps you should make these targets more distinguishable...change the actual color of the region or something? Since the battleships are so important, distinguishing the regions that they bombard a little more clearly would seem to jive with theme of the map. The targets tend to be a little confusing, especially with the map being so small.

Battleships had quite more firepower than the Turkish land batteries, that is why they could bombard all over the peninsula.

Are the starting positions on the land associated with any particular battleship, or are they deployed completely randomly from the battleships you own? Nothing leads to me to believe they are associated, I was just curious.

No, every deployment is per the natural drop.

Does Krithia village directly border Madios village? The legend indicates that villages border each other via the roads, but there is also an army circle sitting on the road in the Seri Tepe Ridge region which could lead to confusion.

Army circle moved.

The border between Kavak Tepe and Anafarta Sagir is hard to make out.

Mmm, OK...i'll have to sort out something there.

Do the Land Batteries also have normal land assault borders similar to the Forts? If not, I think it could be slightly disadvantageous having one of those as a starting position.

yes, the land batteries are to be starters, and have normal borders...fixed in legend

Have you thought about having M3 border more than just one MS ship? I'm not sure if you wanted a chokepoint directly after a killer neutral. Maybe just change the assault route to two assault routes: M3 > MS6 > MS8 and M3 > MS7 > MS9.

yes, i had thought of that, but don't like removing the MS7 to Chanake Kale as this was a major assault point (that never came off anyways)
Changed on next version so that M3 assaults both MS7 and MS6

The Convoy Landing Ships mentioned in the legend, are those the "L" ships? I think some clarification needs to be made there.

Fixed.

I only count 14 starting positions on land (from north to south): Gendarmarie, Gelibolu III Corp, 3rd RIdge, Krithia, Feshkesh, F1, Saraijik, Sari Saglar Beach, Cephez Pt., Kizil-chilali, Erinkeul, Dumbrek, Kum Kali. I can't tell if Gaba Tepe is a starting position or not because it looks like there are two numbers there. If it is, that's still only 15. Doesn't seem consistent as each player in an 8 player game is going to be deployed one Battleship, it's associated L ship, and an L ship in the bottom of the map.

Fixed, there are now 16 land starts - although these may need to be moved with further analysis.
There are now:
* 8 BSs
* 13 Landings vessels and 3 MS positions
* 16 turkish land positions.

It's a +1 for each land territory position held, but it's also a -1 for each Landing Beach region. Maybe instead of saying that they lose one per round (which they won't, they will just maintain the troops that are already there), indicate they are not included in the Land Bonus or something?

the -1 for landing beach notation has been removed.
Mmmm, i'll have to think about removing the +1 bonus autodeploy.
i wanted to simulate the invasion, and it's up to the opponent to bombard the landing ships to stop the invasion.

What do you think?

That's what i think ^^ !

[cairnswk]

Version 21
I've allocated another 20 pixels on the left to give some eye space to the congested battleships and landing craft positions.
Much neater now, and still only going to be 650px W x 600h.

show: Starts

[cairnswk]

no comments on this one
no even from the CAs

[sannemanrobinson]

The first 15 minutes looking at the map I understood the losing condition when losing all battle ships. Idea for a new phrase: losing condition - Retreat to the battleships will lose the game.

This might give some confusion as well as there is no forting possible to the battleships. Alternative: Players who hold battleships(s) only are out of the game.

Is the Blue line between Bigale and Madios a road?

[cairnswk]

...
Is the Blue line between Bigale and Madios a road?

Yes

[Oneyed]

nice map. I like sun-rise.
I am also impessed how much items you implemented to map.

could you change something on the road between Madios and Bigali? for me it also looks unclear that it is road. the main problem is Kehlia Beach name which cover road junction between dark and light area.
border between Kojadere and Chunuk Bair is not clear. the borders on the junction betwen dark and light area are somewhere hard visible (Kavak Tepe, Gendarmarie, Tepe, Anafarta Sagir, Biylak Anaka, Monash Gully, Chunuk Bair).
what are MS1, MS2, MS3 and so on? and from where is possible to attack them?
also what with L2, L3, L4, L5, L6? I see possibility to bombard them, but no attack them.

Oneyed

[cairnswk]

Oneyed wrote:nice map. I like sun-rise.
I am also impessed how much items you implemented to map.


sunrise, yes it's a major design element to represent the time of day
and yes, historical elements have to play an important role.

could you change something on the road between Madios and Bigali? for me it also looks unclear that it is road.
the main problem is Kehlia Beach name which cover road junction between dark and light area.


Yes

border between Kojadere and Chunuk Bair is not clear. the borders on the junction betwen dark and light area are somewhere hard visible (Kavak Tepe, Gendarmarie, Tepe, Anafarta Sagir, Biylak Anaka, Monash Gully, Chunuk Bair).


yes they can be fixed

what are MS1, MS2, MS3 and so on? and from where is possible to attack them?


MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows

also what with L2, L3, L4, L5, L6? I see possibility to bombard them, but no attack them.
Oneyed


L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities
Image
* Spanish Armada * New Zealand * CC: Sydney * CC: Pot Mosbi

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Sergeant cairnswk

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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [12.7.12] v21-P13 Gameplay

Postby Oneyed on Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:10 pm

cairnswk wrote:MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows



I can not see any way how to attack MS1, MS2, MS3.

cairnswk wrote:L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities



most of "L" is possible to attack from battle ships. but L2,L3, L4, L5, L6 is not possible to attack. when I read map correctly the battle ships will be starting positions. so also L2 - L6 will be starting positions?

maybe I read map wrong and therefore are these things not clear just for me?

Oneyed

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Sergeant 1st Class Oneyed

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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [12.7.12] v21-P13 Gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:37 pm

Oneyed wrote:

cairnswk wrote:MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows


I can not see any way how to attack MS1, MS2, MS3.


as such they are not assualtable...but you can bombard them (to neutral) from the forts

L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities


most of "L" is possible to attack from battle ships. but L2,L3, L4, L5, L6 is not possible to attack. when I read map correctly the battle ships will be starting positions. so also L2 - L6 will be starting positions?...
Oneyed

Yes. L2-L6 will be starting positions.
there are various combinations of starting positions which include battleships, landing craft, mine sweepers and land positions
pls note where the coloured numbers are for the starting positions.

[Oneyed]

MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows

I can not see any way how to attack MS1, MS2, MS3.

L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities

most of "L" is possible to attack from battle ships. but L2,L3, L4, L5, L6 is not possible to attack. when I read map correctly the battle ships will be starting positions. so also L2 - L6 will be starting positions?

maybe I read map wrong and therefore are these things not clear just for me?

Oneyed

[cairnswk]

MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows

I can not see any way how to attack MS1, MS2, MS3.

as such they are not assualtable...but you can bombard them (to neutral) from the forts

L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities

most of "L" is possible to attack from battle ships. but L2,L3, L4, L5, L6 is not possible to attack. when I read map correctly the battle ships will be starting positions. so also L2 - L6 will be starting positions?...
Oneyed

Yes. L2-L6 will be starting positions.
there are various combinations of starting positions which include battleships, landing craft, mine sweepers and land positions
pls note where the coloured numbers are for the starting positions.

[cairnswk]

could you change something on the road between Madios and Bigali? for me it also looks unclear that it is road.
the main problem is Kehlia Beach name which cover road junction between dark and light area.

Yes

I have widened the road, changde the colour, and moved the name and army circle so that it is more visisble
pls refresh v21 above.

border between Kojadere and Chunuk Bair is not clear. the borders on the junction betwen dark and light area are somewhere hard visible (Kavak Tepe, Gendarmarie, Tepe, Anafarta Sagir, Biylak Anaka, Monash Gully, Chunuk Bair).

yes they can be fixed

You'll have to wait a bit for this one...uni calls...and these changes involve significant improvements to the mountains as borders in these regions so they can be made clearer for you

[Oneyed]

as such they are not assualtable...but you can bombard them (to neutral) from the forts

Yes. L2-L6 will be starting positions.
there are various combinations of starting positions which include battleships, landing craft, mine sweepers and land positions
pls note where the coloured numbers are for the starting positions.

now it is clear. thanks

I have widened the road, changde the colour, and moved the name and army circle so that it is more visisble
pls refresh v21 above.

now it looks fine. the updated version looks as "washed". to be honest I more like version without numbers. or maybe something between these two would looks nice?

You'll have to wait a bit for this one...uni calls...and these changes involve significant improvements to the mountains as borders in these regions so they can be made clearer for you

looking forward .

nice work. as ususal from you

Oneyed

[Robespierre__]

I have not had a chance to look at the map closely, but I am very excited that a new Cairnswk is in my future. Youdaman.

[nolefan5311]

Sorry for the delayed response cairns, but this map deserves a lot of attention.

BS Vengeance, BS Goliath, BS Queen Elizabeth, BS Swiftsure, BS Albion, BS Majestic should all be HMS ________. Gaulois and Suffren were both French and it does not appear the French put such designations for their ships.

Seddul-bahir should be Sedd el Bahr as it was known during the battle though there does seem to be discrepancy in spelling based on different things I’ve seen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedd_el_Bahr)

Kum Kali should be Kum Kale

Erinkeui should be Erenkeui

Sari Sagler Beach should be Sarı Sıĝlar Bay or Sarı Sıĝhlar Bay

Kilid Baar Plateau should be Kilitbahir plateau or Kilid Bahr plateau (I’ve seen it spelled both ways)

Should Ejelmar Beach be Ejelmar Bay? I don’t see it referenced as a beach.

I only see Suvla referenced as a Bay or a Cape and not a Point (most often referred to as Sulva Bay)

Gendarmerie…does this reference something in particular? All I’ve been able to locate is that it is the general word for Turkish Armed Forces of some sort. Near that, there is a Tepe…should that be Tekke Tepe or Kiretch Tepe?

http://mapco.net/gallipgross/gross07.htm - Most of the changes below come from looking at this map...

Turchten Keui should be Turchen Keui

It looks like Bigali should be Boghah…unless I’m seeing this incorrectly

Madios should be Maidos

Kehlia Beach should be Khelia Bay

According to the map Chanak Kale should just be Chanak, but I’ve also seen it referenced as Chanak Kale.

Should Gully Beach be Gully Ravine?

Kizil-chilali should be Kizilkechili

Dardanos should be Dardanus

The dotted line between Chanak Kale and MS7 is kind of hard to make out.

That's all I've got for now, but that should keep you busy . I need to study a bit more closely the potential drop combinations and if there could be any potential issues. But just to clarify, the only drop associations are the battleship and its bordering L ship, right (as in, I won't be dropped Suffren, L7, L6, Krithia, and F8 every time, right? Those last three regions will be randomly distributed?)

[cairnswk]

^^^^ nolenfan5311...before i go changing lots of names which i got from mostly Australian Gallipoli sources....
could you please identify every one of your name sources so that i can determine their accuracy and whether i wish to use them or not
I will not use Wiki sources unless they are totally referenced.
Also some places you've indicated should be something else.
You should know by now that for the sake of making these maps, that totally accuracy will not be achieved.
If i have put a region in and called it something, it is because it is important to the campaign - from my point of view and the Australian theme of the map.
I am not saying i am unwilling to change names, but i want them to be well reliable and i would prefer to rely on war records if possible.

[nolefan5311]

^^^^ nolenfan5311...before i go changing lots of names which i got from mostly Australian Gallipoli sources....
could you please identify every one of your name sources so that i can determine their accuracy and whether i wish to use them or not
I will not use Wiki sources unless they are totally referenced.
Also some places you've indicated should be something else.
You should know by now that for the sake of making these maps, that totally accuracy will not be achieved.
If i have put a region in and called it something, it is because it is important to the campaign - from my point of view and the Australian theme of the map.
I am not saying i am unwilling to change names, but i want them to be well reliable and i would prefer to rely on war records if possible.

I was not aware this was themed from an Australian point of view...Anzac is only mentioned in one place on the map.

The Wiki source I linked is the name for a geographic region of Turkey and isn't specific to the battle. I didn't find any source that spelled it the way it is spelled on the map. And honestly, the only time most of the other names are referenced in any way at all is because of their involvement in this campaign. Most of the corrections are suggestions based on the map I linked, which is a war map of the Gallipoli peninsula in 1915. The MFW is pretty busy at the moment, so I will try to bold or italicize the suggestions that came directly from that map as soon as I can, but it is also linked there for your own reference.

And I do understand that total accuracy will not be achieved, which is why I have not suggested to change the exact location of some regions, or suggested replacing some of the ships with other ships that had more involvement in the conflict or anything like that. Most of the suggestions just seemed like simple misspellings.

That's all I've got for now, but that should keep you busy . I need to study a bit more closely the potential drop combinations and if there could be any potential issues. But just to clarify, the only drop associations are the battleship and its bordering L ship, right (as in, I won't be dropped Suffren, L7, L6, Krithia, and F8 every time, right? Those last three regions will be randomly distributed?)

And I can't really do anymore GP analysis until you answer this for me.

[iancanton]

unique among cc maps, this one is virtually unreadable for me because the colours in the opera browser are all reversed, with black text on dark blue land. any idea why this might be?

ian.

[cairnswk]

unique among cc maps, this one is virtually unreadable for me because the colours in the opera browser are all reversed, with black text on dark blue land. any idea why this might be?

ian.

ian. i have no idea why you might be experiencing this. Anyone??
Also, ian, is it everything on the map you cannot read?

When i export in CMYK, this is the result.


When i export in RGB, this results. Is anyone better than the other.


or do they make no difference in the Opera browser?

[iancanton]

all of the text is close to unreadable on the CMYK version. the RGB version has golden-brown land and greyish-greenish-blue sea, with decent dark brown text.

ian.

[Arama86n]

great innitiative cairnswk, we need more WWI maps. I look forward to getting a headache wrapping my head around this one come BETA

[nolefan5311]

As it appears development on this map has stalled (it has been several months since an update), this map is being Moved to the Recycling Bin for the time being. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Foundry Moderators will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made.

[cairnswk]

As it appears development on this map has stalled (it has been several months since an update), this map is being Moved to the Recycling Bin for the time being. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Foundry Moderators will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made.

Just hold you horses laddy...
I have finished exams and am waiting to hear from iancanton about his issues with the CMYK v RGB version so i know which one to progress with...from 3 posts back on Oct 4.
Once i know that i can process somewhere, but i don't know if this issue has anything to do with his monitor or what the hell is going on since his reply seems only half cooked with information.
I would like to know why this colour difference has suddenly become an issue, since i can achieve the same effect in RGB for CMYK version, which is the one i prefer.
I think it most unfair to bin something when i haven't been consulted about it...have had RL issues to deal with... and mods have been very slack in commenting.

This is the version i prefer to use, so i want to know what is going on. AS far as i am concerned, most of the gameplay has been sorted and is awaiting some reply or input.