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TRAFALGAR [12.4.2012] QUENCHED (V65)

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - Row Boats and Cannon

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:15 pm

saraith wrote:Nice work.. I'm impressed

One thing I can suggest, though... Wouldn't it be more accurate to call the Victory, the Santissima Trinidad, and the Bucentaure flagships instead of Commanders?


According to my research the following were considered flagships.

British Ships: HMS Victory (Flagship), HMS Royal Sovereign (Flagship)
French Ships: Bucentaure (Flagship), Formidable (Flagship)
Spanish Ships: Santa Anna (Flagship), Santissima Trinidad (Flagship)

But from the following link from an article from Admiral Collingwood
http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Naval ... 1805-11-07)a.html
The LONDON GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY.
Wednesday, Nov. 6, 1805.
ADMIRALTY-OFFICE, Nov. 6.

Dispatches, of which the following are Copies, were received at the Admiralty this day, at one o'clock A.M. from Vice-Admiral Collingwood, Commander in Chief of his Majesty's ships and vessels off Cadiz:ā€”

Euryalus, off Cape Trafalgar, Oct. 22, 1805.

SIR,

The ever-to-be lamented death of Vice-Admiral Lord Viscount Nelson, who, in the late conflict with the enemy, fell in the hour of victory, leaves to me the duty of informing my Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, that on the 19th instant, it was communicated to the Commander in Chief, from the ships watching the motions of the enemy in Cadiz, that the Combined Fleet had put to sea; as they sailed with light winds westerly, his Lordship concluded their destination was the Mediterranean, and immediately made all sail for the Streights' entrance, with the British Squadron, consisting of twenty-seven ships, three of them sixtyfours, where his Lordship was informed, by Captain Blackwood (whose vigilance in watching, and giving notice of the enemy's movements, has been highly meritorious), that they had not yet passed the Streights.

On Monday the 21st instant, at day-light, when Cape Trafalgar bore E. by S. about seven leagues, the enemy was discovered six or seven miles to the Eastward, the wind about West, and very light; the Commander in Chief immediately made the signal for the fleet to bear up in two columns, as they are formed in order of sailing; a mode of attack his Lordship had previously directed, to avoid the inconvenience and delay in forming a line of battle in the usual manner. The enemy's line consisted of thirty-three ships (of which eighteen were French, and fifteen Spanish), commanded in Chief by Admiral Villeneuve: the Spaniards, under the direction of Gravina, wore, with their heads to the Northward, and formed their line of battle with great closeness and correctness; but as the mode of attack was unusual, so the structure of their line was new; it formed a crescent, convexing to leeward, so that, in leading down to their centre, I had both their van and rear abaft the beam; before the fire opened, every alternate ship was about a cable's length to windward of her second a-head and a-stern, forming a kind of double line, and appeared, when on their beam, to leave a very little interval between them; and this without crowding their ships. Admiral Villeneuve was in the Bucentaure, in the centre, and the Prince of Asturias bore Gravina's flag in the rear, but the French and Spanish ships were mixed without any apparent regard to order of national squadron.

As the mode of our attack had been previously determined on, and communicated to the Flag-Officers, and Captains, few signals were necessary, and none were made, except to direct close order as the line bore down.

The Commander in Chief, in the Victory, led the weather column, and the Royal Sovereign, which bore my flag, the lee.

Can't get much better than that i'm afraid, from one of the participants.
That why the Commanders are where they are.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - Row Boats and Cannon

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:22 pm

ah, in my (history buff) mind, historical accuracy trumps the way it sounds. No worries, bout that ā€” nicely done on the map

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - Row Boats and Cannon

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:26 pm

The other thing that must be considered in this gameplay, IMHO, is that if you want to have the flagships as the the dominant bonus ships in this battle, then 4 of the 6 occupy positions above that weather line, with only two below it; and all 6 are in that crowded section of the gameplay.

At least with the commanders in the positions they are in as major bonus items, it places one of the commanders at the southern end of the gemplay away from the major battle that is centering around Bucantaure and Victory.

the.killing.44 wrote:ah, in my (history buff) mind, historical accuracy trumps the way it sounds. No worries, bout that ā€” nicely done on the map

.44

Sorry .44, not sure what you are saying here, forgive me for being dumb. :?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - Row Boats and Cannon

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:30 pm

haha cairns, I'm just saying that you should make it as historically accurate as possible, no matter how it sounds (or maybe not no matter ā€¦ ;) )

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - Row Boats and Cannon

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:45 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:haha cairns, I'm just saying that you should make it as historically accurate as possible, no matter how it sounds (or maybe not no matter ā€¦ ;) )
.44


well, that is a quandry to some extent.
Different reports are going to give different accounts of the battle at various stages...remembering this was a battle that lasted over 6 hours and inflicted vast amounts of damage to leading ships....it was a running battle in that several of the ships started out bombarding ships in other positions from where i have them.
Also take into consideration that i have to construct a map that is worthy of this naval form for gameplay i.e. it must have enough historical accuracy and balance of play to be a good map.

I chose to represent the Victory - Bucantaure picture for the historians so that part was accurate.
I also chose to take word from real articles such as the one represented above to give the commanders the positions they have.

Another article i found in research confirms the position (i beleive of Gravina)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_C ... %C3%A1poli

Trafalgar

When Napoleon proposed to invade Great Britain, following the orders of the government of Godoy, Gravina was placed under the command of French Admiral Villeneuve, who took the Franco-Spanish fleet into Caribbean waters to confuse the English fleet. The objective was to allow the crossing of the English Channel by 180,000 men that Napoleon had waiting around Boulogne. The deception did not have desired effect. On its return the Franco-Spanish fleet was intercepted by a fleet under Sir Robert Calder at the Battle of Cape Finisterre, losing the Spanish ships Firme and San Rafael. After this they took refuge in Cadiz by order of Villeneuve, contradicting the original plan of Napoleon. The French soldiers never embarked, and were moved to the interior of Europe, freeing many of them to take part in the Battle of Austerlitz.

In Cadiz relations between the supposed allies were poor. Gravina and other Spanish commanders argued strongly with the French, who wanted to sail immediately, whereas the Spaniards recommended waiting for a more favourable conditions. Gravina was also concerned about the yellow fever epidemic that had left his ships short of men, as well as the lingering resentment against the French, for their perceived lack of support at the Battle of Cape Finisterre. The fleet finally left Cadiz on 20 October 1805, leading to the Battle of Trafalgar the next day.

During the battle Gravina, in his flagship Principe de Asturias, found himself attacked by three British ships at once. The main mast and mizzen were shot through, rigging and sails shot to pieces. At about half past three in the afternoon Gravina's left arm was shattered by grapeshot, and seeing a looming defeat, he managed to gather ten ships around his flagship and fell back to Cadiz under tow.

Despite this Gravina was promoted to the highest military rank of CapitƔn-General de la Armada (Admiral of the Fleet), but he never fully recovered from his wounds and finally succumbed on 9 March 1806, aged 49.

On his death-bed he said, "I am a dying man, but I die happy; I am going, I hope and trust, to join Nelson, the greatest hero that the world perhaps has produced."
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - Row Boats and Cannon

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:30 am

Just a little test (and i know some terts are off) of the XML.

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - XMl Test

Postby MrBenn on Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:27 pm

I'm not sold on the bevel you've added to the 'background' ship - I think it looked nicer without it.

A while ago, somebody pointed out that the sails should take into account the wind direction.. ie. shouldn;t all the sails be facing the same way, regardless of which way the boat is pointing?

I like the little rowing boats - it's a neat way of conveying the 'support' routes.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - XMl Test

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:34 pm

MrBenn wrote:I'm not sold on the bevel you've added to the 'background' ship - I think it looked nicer without it.

A while ago, somebody pointed out that the sails should take into account the wind direction.. ie. shouldn;t all the sails be facing the same way, regardless of which way the boat is pointing?

I like the little rowing boats - it's a neat way of conveying the 'support' routes.

I agree with the bevel - tone it down some.
Sailing fact about the sails ;) - on a ship like that with fore-facing sails, the sails would always face to the bow of the ship because on the mainmasts they can't rotate. However, on the headsails, they should be facing in the same direction.

(However, all that I said about the mainsails could change depending on the ships that cairns chose)

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - XMl Test

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:53 pm

MrBenn wrote:I'm not sold on the bevel you've added to the 'background' ship - I think it looked nicer without it.

A while ago, somebody pointed out that the sails should take into account the wind direction.. ie. shouldn;t all the sails be facing the same way, regardless of which way the boat is pointing?

I like the little rowing boats - it's a neat way of conveying the 'support' routes.


the.killing.44 wrote:
MrBenn wrote:I'm not sold on the bevel you've added to the 'background' ship - I think it looked nicer without it.

A while ago, somebody pointed out that the sails should take into account the wind direction.. ie. shouldn;t all the sails be facing the same way, regardless of which way the boat is pointing?

I like the little rowing boats - it's a neat way of conveying the 'support' routes.

I agree with the bevel - tone it down some.
Sailing fact about the sails ;) - on a ship like that with fore-facing sails, the sails would always face to the bow of the ship because on the mainmasts they can't rotate. However, on the headsails, they should be facing in the same direction.

(However, all that I said about the mainsails could change depending on the ships that cairns chose)

.44


1. Bevel on ship legend removed completely.
2. Fore-sails on the British ships heading south and aft-sails on Commanders ships are the only sails that needed change in direction...done. the wind was from the WNW i believe.

Please refresh your browser. :)

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - XMl Test

Postby WidowMakers on Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:38 pm

Hey Cairns, I have a question about the legend.

SAME NATION
can board each other from
another ship with a
direct line of sight, if
no other ship under
sail blocks the way.


What does that mean? Direct line of sight from the front of the ship? Direct line of sight from anywhere on the ship. This could be really open to interpretation when people are playing. Unless the get out a straight edge and draw lines on their screen. And what does under sail blocks mean.
    Can ORION attack LEVIATHAN?
    Can AGAMEMNON attack LEVIATHAN?
    Can SPARTIATE attack AGAMEMNON?
They all have line connecting them with no other ships in between.

Sorry if I am just dense. I just don't get it. I know this part needs to be clear since it is the only way to move around the map. (from what I can tell)

EDIT: And what does SAME SIDE:assist each other mean? Does that just mean those territories attack each other instead of bombard?

Thanks
WM
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - XMl Test

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:02 am

WidowMakers wrote:Hey Cairns, I have a question about the legend.

SAME NATION
can board each other from
another ship with a
direct line of sight, if
no other ship under
sail blocks the way.


What does that mean? Direct line of sight from the front of the ship? Direct line of sight from anywhere on the ship. This could be really open to interpretation when people are playing. Unless the get out a straight edge and draw lines on their screen. And what does under sail blocks mean.
    Can ORION attack LEVIATHAN?
    Can AGAMEMNON attack LEVIATHAN?
    Can SPARTIATE attack AGAMEMNON?
They all have line connecting them with no other ships in between.

Sorry if I am just dense. I just don't get it. I know this part needs to be clear since it is the only way to move around the map. (from what I can tell)

EDIT: And what does SAME SIDE:assist each other mean? Does that just mean those territories attack each other instead of bombard?

Thanks
WM


Wm....
Did you read the thread?
Did you read the legend and see the parts about bombarding.
Did you see the protruding pieces on the army circles that show -
Bombardments"
One-way French to British with the "cannon" on the french ship.
and two-way where each ship has cannon pointed at each other.
Mmmmmm!??? I thought that would have been pretty clear...anyway

Did you read the legend that say "The Nations Involved"
British Vs French & Spanish
Therefore from that i would have thought you could deduce there are two sides in this battle, so the historians are kept satisfied.
Now, "Boarding Ships"
"Opposing Sides", having previously established there are two sides in this battle, it says that "ships locked together can board each other" You will notice there are no French and Spanish ships locked together. They are mentioned in the next section "Same Side" -> French and Spanish can assist each other.
Then there it is the slightly ambiguous bit (and i agree with you that it needs to be made perfectly clear)
"Same Nation" can board each other from another ship with a direct line of sight, if no other ship under sail (because there also also row boats on the map) blocks the way.
If you have any suggestions to improve this, then please let me know.
Several people you have viewed it already clearly understand it.... ;)
As for the direct line of sight...i have taken the direct line of sight from the centre of the army circle, but that will not fit in the legend at present...
Can ORION attack LEVIATHAN? Yes, there is enough room around the end of that legend for a straight line to fit.
Can AGAMEMNON attack LEVIATHAN? Yes, the foresail of the Ajax does not block it.
Can SPARTIATE attack AGAMEMNON? No, Euryalus blocks the direct line of sight.

I realise this is complicated, and perhaps the best idea would be to have each Nations line of attack available on the front page of this thread so players can understand and see what can attack what when play gets underway. Until the map is forged, then i keep this in the thread , as this may change widely. :)
Hope this helps.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - XMl Test

Postby Incandenza on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:27 am

Actually, if you could put the cheat sheets in the first post, I'd be obliged... of course, the goal will be to ensure that anyone playing the map will be able to figure out connections, so borderline ones like Orion-Leviathan, Ajax-Africa, San Justo-San Augustine, Mont Blanc-Dugary Trouin, even Dreadnought-Defiance, anywhere that someone could plausibly ask "Hmmm, do those ships connect?", will either need to be clearly closed off or clearly, um, cleared out, so some of the ships may need to move around a bit.

Hell, I'll do ya one better, here's a list of the connections that I feel, without using the cheat sheet ('cause I'm trying to put myself in the position of someone new to the map), might leave a bit of room for interpretation:
Orion-Leviathan
Orion-Polyphemous/Swiftsure (the whole "does the legend impede line-of-sight" question, which extends to Polyphemous/Swiftsure-Minotaur/Spartiate)
Ajax-Africa
San Justo-San Augustine
Mont Blanc-Dugary Trouin
San Juan de Nepomenco-Argonauta
Monarca-San Justo
Santissima Trinidad-Rayo
Bucentaure-Intrepid
Neptune-Africa

There are more, but you get my point. Moving some ships around (in some cases a few pixels) to either clearly block or clearly allow LOS seems important. I don't like the lines of attack concept any more than you do, but given the fluidity of the battle I think you have enough wiggle room where you can make connections between same-nation ships a bit clearer.

That's the first step. 8-)
Last edited by Incandenza on Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - XMl Test

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:10 am

Incandenza wrote:Actually, if you could put the cheat sheets in the first post, I'd be obliged... ..

Done as requested. :)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - Cheat Sheet (p1)

Postby Incandenza on Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:47 am

Thank you.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V24(P12) - XMl Test

Postby WidowMakers on Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:32 am

cairnswk wrote:Wm....
Did you read the thread?
Did you read the legend and see the parts about bombarding.
Did you see the protruding pieces on the army circles that show -
Bombardments"
One-way French to British with the "cannon" on the french ship.
and two-way where each ship has cannon pointed at each other.
Mmmmmm!??? I thought that would have been pretty clear...anyway

Did you read the legend that say "The Nations Involved"
British Vs French & Spanish
Therefore from that i would have thought you could deduce there are two sides in this battle, so the historians are kept satisfied.
Now, "Boarding Ships"
"Opposing Sides", having previously established there are two sides in this battle, it says that "ships locked together can board each other" You will notice there are no French and Spanish ships locked together. They are mentioned in the next section "Same Side" -> French and Spanish can assist each other.
Then there it is the slightly ambiguous bit (and i agree with you that it needs to be made perfectly clear)
"Same Nation" can board each other from another ship with a direct line of sight, if no other ship under sail (because there also also row boats on the map) blocks the way.
If you have any suggestions to improve this, then please let me know.
Several people you have viewed it already clearly understand it.... ;)

Thanks Cairns. I did read the thread and I did not ask questions about the bombardment (as you will see in my post) All of that is explained well and I understand it perfectly.
The part below is what I don't understand because it is not clear to me and I think it will confuse many people .

cairnswk wrote:As for the direct line of sight...i have taken the direct line of sight from the centre of the army circle, but that will not fit in the legend at present...
Can ORION attack LEVIATHAN? Yes, there is enough room around the end of that legend for a straight line to fit.
Can AGAMEMNON attack LEVIATHAN? Yes, the foresail of the Ajax does not block it.
Can SPARTIATE attack AGAMEMNON? No, Euryalus blocks the direct line of sight.

I realize this is complicated, and perhaps the best idea would be to have each Nations line of attack available on the front page of this thread so players can understand and see what can attack what when play gets underway. Until the map is forged, then i keep this in the thread , as this may change widely. :)
Hope this helps.


This is why I was asking, What does Direct Line of Sight Mean? One line being able to connect any part of two ships?
People should not need to read the thread to be able to play a map. It should be easy to understand without the map development.
Here is an image with 1 pxl black lines connecting red ships. If this is what you mean by line of sight then all of these ships should be able to attack each other.
So SPARTIATE can attack AGAMEMNON because Euryalus does not block the direct line of sight.

Now you said that it is the direct line of sight from the army circle so that makes this image wrong and I understand that. But people will not know that if the legend does not say it. If that is a requirement for the rules, it should be in there to help make things clearer. If it had, I would not have asked the question.
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image

I don't think having the attack lines on the front page is a fix to the issue. Again i will say that people should not be required to do other research to play a map. If that would be the case I would start making maps without a legend and just keep the instructions in the map thread.

Now when I asked the question about assist sides, I figured it meant attacking but just wanted to make sure. Why not just say they can attack each other. It removed confusion and that it is.

I would have to say that this is a great looking map. I like how you have gotten rid of the connection lines and made the map look seamless as just a picture.
Good job.

WM
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:36 pm

WidowMakers wrote:Thanks Cairns. I did read the thread and I did not ask questions about the bombardment (as you will see in my post) All of that is explained well and I understand it perfectly.

Well no, WM. You said this"
EDIT: And what does SAME SIDE:assist each other mean? Does that just mean those territories attack each other instead of bombard?

Which is why you got the bit about the bombardments because there is no bombardments between the french and spanish in the map if you take the queue from the little cannon on each army circle.

Widowmaker wrote:Now when I asked the question about assist sides, I figured it meant attacking but just wanted to make sure. Why not just say they can attack each other. It removed confusion and that it is.

Well, this to me is a fine point, because i don't see it as attacking each other since in the essence of the game, the french and spanish are on the same side, therefore in my mind they would "assist" each other, which is why i worded it like it is.
And everyone knows that you have to "attack" each others position in order to play this game otherwise you don't get to move into another position.
Having said that i can see where the confusion night lie if someone thought they could fortify from french to spanish only and this might be a new xml feature which it isn't.
So the solution might be to have something like "Same Side - movement each way only via row boats" (if it fits)

WM, From your analysis with the black line, it is clear that your mind doesn't think like mine, and that is good....so i will have to word the Same Nation section specifically so that there is no room for interpretation. Thanks for picking all that up. :)

Version 25 below:

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25(P12) - Legend Wording

Postby WidowMakers on Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:04 pm

Cool Cairns. The rewording is GREAT. Much clearer now. Thanks.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25(P12) - Legend Wording

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:31 pm

WidowMakers wrote:Cool Cairns. The rewording is GREAT. Much clearer now. Thanks.

Ta muchly! :)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25(P12) - Legend Wording

Postby gimil on Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:26 pm

The butterfly sig is looking very blurred cairns. Doesn't suit the map.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25(P12) - Legend Wording

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:09 pm

gimil wrote:The butterfly sig is looking very blurred cairns. Doesn't suit the map.


But i prefer it this way, i don't want it sticking out like a sore thumb. ;)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25(P12) - Legend Wording

Postby gimil on Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:50 pm

cairnswk wrote:
gimil wrote:The butterfly sig is looking very blurred cairns. Doesn't suit the map.


But i prefer it this way, i don't want it sticking out like a sore thumb. ;)


Well I don't believe blurring is the best way to go. I would like to see the sig sharpened. If it sticks out to much a bit of opacity would work I believe. But blur? Definetly not. :)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25(P12) - Legend Wording

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:40 pm

gimil wrote:...
Well I don't believe blurring is the best way to go. I would like to see the sig sharpened. If it sticks out to much a bit of opacity would work I believe. But blur? Definetly not. :)

Mmmm sorry, it's blurred because it is a bitmap import from Coreldraw. I will be able to sharpen it, that will bring it up a bit clearer. :)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25(P12) - Legend Wording

Postby gimil on Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:51 pm

cairnswk wrote:
gimil wrote:...
Well I don't believe blurring is the best way to go. I would like to see the sig sharpened. If it sticks out to much a bit of opacity would work I believe. But blur? Definetly not. :)

Mmmm sorry, it's blurred because it is a bitmap import from Coreldraw. I will be able to sharpen it, that will bring it up a bit clearer. :)


I will be waiting cairns :D
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25(P12) - Legend Wording

Postby cairnswk on Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:15 pm

gimil wrote:...
I will be waiting cairns :D

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR [D]- V25(P12) - Legend Wording

Postby gimil on Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:23 pm

Perfect cairns.

I will step away for the time being so that some gameplay discussion can continue.
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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