Mongol Empire Map [Quenched]

[Guiscard]

No Marv the post right above yours...

Yeah bring back Song! Why did you ever get rid of that in the first place guiscard?

I think if you create this sea route (one way or the other) Jin will be sorted. It's only got 3 territories, true, but with 3 outside territories that can assualt Nuzhen the job of holding Jin will be worthy of a 2-bonus. Meanwhile Jin's newfound ability to attack both the blue and the green continents through the back door, as it were, makes it a valuable strategic stronghold. Perfect.

The other option to make Jin worthy of a 2 bonus is what i suggested before about adding keraits as another territory, but I no longer think this is as good. It diminishes the blue continent as you said guiscard, and I like Jin's new ability to hit Yuan Khanate.

How far is this map from final forge now andy?

To be honest, to myself and to everyone apart from you who has commented this seems like by far the best and most balanced option.

The sea route takes away the possibility of extending your territory by simple conquering Keraits and Kalinbaliq (and further to Onggt and Hunan). it stops it being linear. You're gonna have to keep troops in Nuzhen even if you expand into the Great Khanate, so its a little harder to hold.

Afraid I can't post the historical maps as the detailed ones are in the University library.

[Marvaddin]

I have experience in the foundry and Im convinced your map could be better. The blue area with 6 borders is bad, its completely wasted. How will someone even take the blue area with that 3 territories and 1 border continent of bonus 2 near it? Same to green. And will yuan have a bonus of 4 for 8 territories and 5 borders while jin have a bonus 2 with 3-1?

Jin will never deserve a bonus 2, unless you add more territories, or another border country. Did you play already Brazil map I did? The South area, with 5 countries and 1 border is already strong! Its the same here, in a corner of the map... just 1 border (the strong point about these continents)... South its already by far the best continent in Brazil map, mate, and we have 2 continents with 3 borders each one, with 5 and 6 countries. Here jin is even more powerfull, and there is no other continent that can be compete in power.

And as I said, the country dispersion 3, 5, 8, 8, 8, 8 is something really bad, too. It doesnt allow many strategies, even why only 1 region is easily holdable (Chaghadi has 4 borders). You are going to commit a bad error if you keep the country dispersion. I said the same thing to the guy that did Ireland and he didnt believe... At least think about add a new small continent in the west side.

Post the maps you have and I will try suggest something more concrete.

[gavin_sidhu]

Totally agree with Marvaddin.

[ViscountGort]

Marv, guiscard cant post the maps they're at his uni library.

Guiscard you know that I like Jin as it is and I know you do too, but to try and be constructive & end the division here I thought I'd suggest a method of making the map more to marv's taste, just to put it out there and see what people have to say.

Marv you said the red & blue areas should have fewer borders, and jin should be larger than 3 territories.

What if the border between tian shan and naimans was closed with another little stretch of mountains, which i dont think would look out of place. Then on the east bring Keraits down to meet the sea and make it part of Jin. Change the sea route so it arrives at keraits' new coastline, rather than at Nuzhen. This will decrease the borders for red and blue & add a territory to jin, also getting rid of one of the 4 8-territory continents.

I'm not necessarily saying I think this is the best plan, but I admit I'm the one with the least foundry experience here - Marv would this be better in your opinion? More importantly what do you make of it all guiscard?

[Guiscard]

Werent Keraits and Khanbaliq supposed to be part of the new "Jin" area? That would be perfect!

Beyond that, I would suggest:
Block Yugor - Karakorum route
Remove the trade route

The map is done! Just adjust the bonuses if needed

To attempt to solve the current problems I have gone back to this comment by Marv...




Added a new impassable taking away Karakorum as a border country. At the moment its extended to border naimans and Onggt but this can always be changed, as can the graphics.

keraits and Kalinbaliq are now part of jin, making it worthy of the 2 bonus.

Also a sea route adds an extra border to Yuan making the set-up as follows:

Jin:___________5 territories / 2 borders / Bonus 2
Yuan: _________8 territories / 5 Borders / Bonus ? (Possibly 6/7)
Great Khanate: _6 Territories / 3 Borders / Bonus ? (Possibly 3/4)
Chaghadi: _____5 Territories / 4 Borders / Bonus 4
Golden Horde: __8 territories / 3 Borders / Bonus 5
Ilkhanate: _____8 territories / 3 Borders / Bonus 5

[Marvaddin]

Much better now, thanks

Now jin really deserves a 2, maybe even 3. Please realize, however, that the sea route is making much more trouble to green area. Without it, Jin is already a 2, so maybe its not needed any more.

Yeah, I think Yugor could attack Naimans and Onggt without a problem.
The trade route, thinking better about it, is a good thing. I just dont know if the name "trade route" is even needed.

The single thing I still dislike is Chaghadi having 4 borders. To decrease it to 3, I see 2 good options:
- Block Kabul to Himalayas
- Extend mountains, blocking attacks to Tian Shan (in this case, surely remove Yugor to Naimans unpassable).

[Guiscard]

Ok will definitely get rid of impassable border of Naimans and Onggt. Hadn't really thought it out when I posted the update.

Regarding Chaghadi, I'd rather keep it at four I think, as there are already three other '3 border' continents. What is your reason behind wanting it reduced to 3?

Regarding the sea route, I added that to add an extra border to Yuan to make it deserving of a higher bonus (and avoid it being to similar to the copy-cat continents in the west). I actually think this is a good thing and that the border should stay. You yourself argued against all the continents becoming too similar in size Marv.

If we can get these issues sorted and then adjust the bonuses in line then hopefully we should be nearly there playability wise.

[gavin_sidhu]

I think you should get rid of the sea line from khanbaliq to fukien, not only does it not enhance gameplay, but looks odd. I think Naimans and Yugor should connect as Marvaddin sugested.

Keep the trade route words there, makes things more easier to understand and i would leave chaghadi like it is, a dead continent, as it's in the centre it makes sense that it is.

Whats with the borders of ilkhanate, most of them are very straight which makes them look artificial, i think you should add some curves to those borders to make it look more real.

Keep the inpassable between Yugor and Onggt, otherwise ongtt becomes a "middle east" and makes the Great Khanate much more harder to hold. On the other hand if you get rid of the border it will make expanding from Jin just a little harder which is a good thing, actually i don't know whether u should keep onggt yugor inpassable or not.

[Guiscard]

Whats with the borders of ilkhanate, most of them are very straight which makes them look artificial, i think you should add some curves to those borders to make it look more real.

Erm... They're the real borders (more or less).

Keep the inpassable between Yugor and Onggt, otherwise ongtt becomes a "middle east" and makes the Great Khanate much more harder to hold. On the other hand if you get rid of the border it will make expanding from Jin just a little harder which is a good thing, actually i don't know whether u should keep onggt yugor inpassable or not.

Have already posted saying I'm going to remove the unpassables on both Onggt and Naimans as there's no point to them.

[gavin_sidhu]

Whats with the borders of ilkhanate, most of them are very straight which makes them look artificial, i think you should add some curves to those borders to make it look more real.

Erm... They're the real borders (more or less)

but the straightness makes them look a bit dodge, eg border between kara yusuf and lu-mi rum, fars borders, kirmans borders.

It looks as if you got the straight line tool and used that to draw them (especially kara yusuf and lu-mi rum). Add some curves to make it look more real, it doesnt have to be real.

[Guiscard]

I don't care if they look a bit 'dodge'... they can't look any more 'real' than they really are! The USA has plenty of state borders which are straight. Territory borders either follow natural geographical features or are straight lines. I'm sorry but I'm trying to keep as much realism as possible in this map, and have consulted as many historical maps and sources as I can. In the case of Kara Yusuf I think the border stretched straight from a town on the border to a mountain then almost at right angles to a port on the coast. Where I have had to make up borders (Baghdad, Kabul, White Horde) I've tried to make them curved.

[Marvaddin]

i would leave chaghadi like it is, a dead continent, as it's in the centre it makes sense that it is.

This is the problem. The other continent with a few countries would be a dead land. So jin is powerfull. Trust me, its already very difficult to hold with 3 borders. Any continent with 3 borders is difficult. In a central area like Africa, its very very difficult. If you want something with more than 3 borders, you can split Yenisay

Keep the inpassable between Yugor and Onggt, otherwise ongtt becomes a "middle east" and makes the Great Khanate much more harder to hold.

This makes sense, although not MUCH more harder to hold.

Regarding the sea route, I added that to add an extra border to Yuan to make it deserving of a higher bonus (and avoid it being to similar to the copy-cat continents in the west). I actually think this is a good thing and that the border should stay. You yourself argued against all the continents becoming too similar in size Marv.

Im not talking about size of continents... The sea route make almost no difference to Jin, with or without it, Jin deserves 2 once you have added 2 territories and a new border country. The sea route just helps to waste even more Yuan. Harder to expand from Jin with the route? Yeah, but nothing significant like to Yuan.

[happysadfun]

Ilkhan- 4
Golden- 4
Changhadi- 4
Jin- 2
Yuan- 5
Great- 4?

[bedplay]

Jin:___________5 territories / 2 borders / Bonus 2
Yuan: _________8 territories / 4 Borders / Bonus 5
Great Khanate: _6 Territories / 3 Borders / Bonus 3
Chaghadi: _____5 Territories / 4 Borders / Bonus 4
Golden Horde: __8 territories / 3 Borders / Bonus 5
Ilkhanate: _____8 territories / 3 Borders / Bonus 5

Yuan should have sea route removed.


I like the idea of more medium bonus continents instead of like original and many other maps, 1 high 2 medium and 3 low bonus cont.s

this is probably my favourite map in development at the moment, keep up the good work!

[Guiscard]

Jin:___________5 territories / 2 borders / Bonus 2
Yuan: _________8 territories / 4 Borders / Bonus 5
Great Khanate: _6 Territories / 3 Borders / Bonus 3
Chaghadi: _____5 Territories / 4 Borders / Bonus 4
Golden Horde: __8 territories / 3 Borders / Bonus 5
Ilkhanate: _____8 territories / 3 Borders / Bonus 5

Yuan should have sea route removed.


I like the idea of more medium bonus continents instead of like original and many other maps, 1 high 2 medium and 3 low bonus cont.s

this is probably my favourite map in development at the moment, keep up the good work!

Think this is the best idea for bonuses.

General consensus also seems to be remove the sea route. Anyone else got an opinion?

Would it be possible to change the poll Andy?

[Guiscard]

Ok. New version without sea route. Closed Tian Shan - yugor and opened yugor - naimans borders. Also what I consider to be the best bonuses have been implemented. What does everyone think?

[gavin_sidhu]

Your bonuses all look about right. Yellow and orange could be worth 4, but i think they are fine as they are. I think your map is complete. I like how you put the names close to the army spots. I think this map is final forge.

[KEYOGI]

I think this is done. I'm glad somebody tackled this empire and has done it justice. The only thing that I think really needs looking at is the mountains along the south of Kabul and Himalayas. They make a very narrow gap and I think it could be easy to miss that connection if you weren't paying enough attention. I see no reason why those mountains can't be moved south a little to solve the problem.

[Qwert]

I think that names its to close army shadows, can you move these names out circle a litle.

[KEYOGI]

I think that names its to close army shadows, can you move these names out circle a litle.

I think they are fine as is. The geography of the map means there's a lot of shadows that are going to be touching anyway. I think the consistency of the design is very appealing.

[gavin_sidhu]

What is the barrier between Karakorium and Yugor? relooking at the map i think people may get confused by that, as circles represent the trade route further south. So I suggest you change the circle unpassable to something else.

[ViscountGort]

i agree with gavin and disagree with qwert about the names being very close to the army spots - this looks great.

is the impassable between karakorum/onggt & yugor supposed to be the great wall of china, as it was in earlier versions of this map? if so i'm not sure abou the graphics. in fact i preferred the graphic you used in this version (although i seem to recall it being a little unpopular at the time):



anyway just a thought. everything else about this map looks great mate.

[Qwert]

KEYOGI wrote
qwert wrote:
I think that names its to close army shadows, can you move these names out circle a litle.


I think they are fine as is. The geography of the map means there's a lot of shadows that are going to be touching anyway. I think the consistency of the design is very appealing.

Have strange here names touching circle a loot and you dont mine?

[KEYOGI]

Have strange here names touching circle a loot and you dont mine?

Shut up qwert. If you haven't noticed, myself and Guiscard have stopped posting in your thread. Leave your comparisons out of other people's threads and stay on topic.

[Bavarian Raven]

i think the map is fine and done, i want to play it!!!