Das Schloß [QUENCHED #2]

[MrBenn]

You should be aiming at achieving the objective of the game as the way to win, not knocking out your opponents.
As previously stated, the helipcopters were included as the final way to overcome stalements, so it makes sense that those numbers need to be high in order to build towards that.

I don;t see any need to change the helicopters - I think they're fine as they are.

The suggested wording sounds fine to me.

[cairnswk]

You should be aiming at achieving the objective of the game as the way to win, not knocking out your opponents.
As previously stated, the helipcopters were included as the final way to overcome stalements, so it makes sense that those numbers need to be high in order to build towards that.

I don;t see any need to change the helicopters - I think they're fine as they are.

The suggested wording sounds fine to me.

New Version 45 with wording alteration.

Click image to enlarge.

Files
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... s_V45S.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... s_V45L.jpg

[tonbomorphew]

LOVE IT!

[AAFitz]

Will this sording suffice?

Killer Neutral resets: Access Point (to 2) & AA (to 5) and
Landeplatz A & B (to 14) which border each Hubschrauber (each 60)

Good enough for me...

I would not like to reset the 60....there was much debate that this figure was required to assist maintenance of the objective being achieved, and that the helicopters should only be used as a absolute stalemate game escape. Not everyone plays that of course...

It seems that the armies at the Landeplatzen and the Hubschrauberen along with the fact that they reset back to those numbers means that NO ONE would reaonably EVER attack them. Is it possible to attempt to find out a better number on each of those? There really is no way to earn 75 troops at the beginning of a turn to reasonably attack your way through those positions. Then, you've got the enemy territories to conquer, so you've probably need at least 100 armies to effectively attack through. I think 60 needs to be reduced. 15 may be ok at the landeplatzen.

I really don't want to do that.
You should be aiming at achieving the objective of the game as the way to win, not knocking out your opponents.
As previously stated, the helipcopters were included as the final way to overcome stalements, so it makes sense that those numbers need to be high in order to build towards that.

The helos definitely dont bother me at whatever number they are at. They only really come into play in large escalating games anyways, so the 60 is nearly irrelevant, and certainly not too big, given their intended purpose. It adds way more strategy to the map...but again, I have nearly never used them.

As far as the rest of the changes go, I know they are close, because while I still usually win, Ive been losing randomly, and from random players and even players with no real idea, which means there is not one sure fire place to drop to win. You have to take a risk where you drop, the dice come into play, and timing is huge as well. I simply have no complaints about it, and only wish I tried the upper right bonus a few times, so I could comment on its effectiveness, but simply havent wanted to take the chance. Ive seen people do it though, which means it certainly can work. Whether its a good idea, or a great one or a bad one though, I honestly have no idea.

Thanks for being so patient on this one cairns, the map is simply awesome with all thats going on, on it...and on fog, and after playing more games on it by far, I still have no idea what to expect from the other players....It is by far the best manual fog map on CC in my opinion, especially on 1v1, because it is hardly ever just a dice shoot out.

[cairnswk]

...
Thanks for being so patient on this one cairns...

AAFitz, i'm just pleased that somewhere along the line we've managed to reach some sort of configuration that is pleasing for you, as well as hopefully, many others.

[cairnswk]

Above images sent forward for upload.

[MrBenn]

Hopefully then, we'll be able to usher this one out of Beta shortly?

[AAFitz]

...
Thanks for being so patient on this one cairns...

AAFitz, i'm just pleased that somewhere along the line we've managed to reach some sort of configuration that is pleasing for you, as well as hopefully, many others.

As am I, and as I said all along, its an awesome map, and it really needed very little to stay that way. As it stands, as a 1v1 map, im not sure there is a more unpredictable one, or one less based on the cubes available. Drop can influence the game, and certainly the cubes can too, but for the most part, its all in how you play, and there are even many choices of how one does just that.

[ben.carbery]

I can't tell what the status of this map (quenched or beta?), but I have to say this one is well worth keeping. Please do NOT get rid of it!
This is an intensely strategy driven map, and conquer club needs this variety. Personally I had no trouble understanding the map after a few rounds. I would compare this map to waterloo (my favourite) in complexity but more so - it is a very different kind of game to waterloo, but that is what is so great about CC - the variety.
I disagree with any concerns about gameplay. In my last game on this map several players came back from the dead several times. This does NOT happen on the vast majority maps, players suffer a death of attrition (this assumes fog of war).
My suggestion is for foundry folk to let this map survive, you never know what new strategies and forms of gameplay will come out of an innovative map.

[MrBenn]

This is still Beta for now - but hopefully it's shortly on it's way into full play.

Cairns, do you think everything's settled now?

[cairnswk]

This is still Beta for now - but hopefully it's shortly on it's way into full play.

Cairns, do you think everything's settled now?

MrBenn,
I would hope so.
I checked just now and there are 98 games active, so it is being played well enough.
Of these, some 63 are foggy, which perhaps given this is a winter scene might seem the natural setting for the map.
Anyways, can i ask that we give it until say 15 Sept before moving it, if there are no major objections.

[MrBenn]

This is still Beta for now - but hopefully it's shortly on it's way into full play.

Cairns, do you think everything's settled now?

MrBenn,
I would hope so.
I checked just now and there are 98 games active, so it is being played well enough.
Of these, some 63 are foggy, which perhaps given this is a winter scene might seem the natural setting for the map.
Anyways, can i ask that we give it until say 15 Sept before moving it, if there are no major objections.

Sounds fine by me... Is Sept 15th a significant date?

[cairnswk]

...
Sounds fine by me... Is Sept 15th a significant date?

No not really, I just picked a few weeks hence.

[thunderhue]

I hesitate to bring this up, but without BOB, it is not clear that the Landeplatz connect to each other. I exploited my opponents ignorance of that in Game 7234624. I know you just clarified that the Landeplatz provide access to the hubschraubers...

I don't have a good idea on how to fix this. Personally I feel that you need to have at least one good play through on this map to understand how it works.

thunderhue

[InnyaFacce]

Sept 15th Will Be A Glorious Day
Das Schloß has become my favorite map

[iancanton]

I hesitate to bring this up, but without BOB, it is not clear that the Landeplatz connect to each other. I exploited my opponents ignorance of that in Game 7234624. I know you just clarified that the Landeplatz provide access to the hubschraubers...

u're right. the legend doesn't say so, nor is it implied on the map in any way. this is important to strategy, since it means that trying to bombard the parachutes is not the only reason for assaulting a landeplatz.

the trouble is, the legend text is already on the verge of looking cramped. a simple landeplatz a & b connect is enough information. do we have enough room to squeeze it in?

ian.

[cairnswk]

I hesitate to bring this up, but without BOB, it is not clear that the Landeplatz connect to each other. I exploited my opponents ignorance of that in Game 7234624. I know you just clarified that the Landeplatz provide access to the hubschraubers...

u're right. the legend doesn't say so, nor is it implied on the map in any way. this is important to strategy, since it means that trying to bombard the parachutes is not the only reason for assaulting a landeplatz.

the trouble is, the legend text is already on the verge of looking cramped. a simple landeplatz a & b connect is enough information. do we have enough room to squeeze it in?

ian.

how does this suit?

Click image to enlarge.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... V45S-1.png
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... V45L-1.png

[viking thunder]

As a guy who has finished over 20 games on this map, and is currently in over 15 games on this map, I really like the game-play in the map. I like that you are almost forced to conquer the objective as opposed to just wiping out your opponent.

I do think that it is a map that you have to play a few times to understand how everything is laid out and what connects to what. That will be an issue for many players.

The only thing I would like to see improved. I believe game-play would be much improved if the auto-reset on AA was higher than 5. I think something in the 12-20 range would make for enhanced game-play. I believe the low number on AA allows for domination of the map too early on in the game on many occasions, especially in games with 3 or less players.

Just my thoughts.

Al

[viking thunder]

Also I have noticed that when playing with low player numbers, this map throws bonus on initial deployment a ton more often than any of the other maps I have played. IF you start 8 games in 1v1, it is not uncommon for 3-4 games to start with someone having a bonus from the start.

Al

[bibo33]

a bit to long

[iancanton]

IF you start 8 games in 1v1, it is not uncommon for 3-4 games to start with someone having a bonus from the start.

the +3 for 5 das dorf can have a serious effect on these games. perhaps making it +6 for 9, or something similar, will give the bottom right player a juicy target without handing to him an early and sustainable bonus.

the new legend wording addresses the landeplatz without looking too squashed, so that's good.

ian.

[cairnswk]

lackattack, a small change in wording to this map in the legend about helipads, if could upload these images please.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... V45S-1.png
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... V45L-1.png

Thanks

[cairnswk]

the new legend wording addresses the landeplatz without looking too squashed, so that's good.
ian.

^^^^
Thanks ian for confirmation of that.
EDIT: Forwarded to lackattack for upload.

IF you start 8 games in 1v1, it is not uncommon for 3-4 games to start with someone having a bonus from the start.

the +3 for 5 das dorf can have a serious effect on these games. perhaps making it +6 for 9, or something similar, will give the bottom right player a juicy target without handing to him an early and sustainable bonus.

ian, do you really think that should be changed?
I dont' think so and here's why:
1. it creates some initial parallel with the first part bonus in the airport and the castle.
2. given that this area in the south has to battle their way to the airport and the castle to overtake their opponents, i would have thought some easy bonus would be applicable to move up the castle road or the cable car.
3. on the back of that, there is also the AA which can take out any pathways created to to move troops in from the drop-zone, which itself by the sheer nature of killer neutrals is a force to take.
4. the castle and airport are not easy to obtain bonuses, so if someone has troops available to place in these spots for their gain from the village bonus, then it's to their advantage and can help move the game along.
5. making that bonus harder to acheive might slow down games and make them all the more boring and difficult to achieve the game objective.

[cairnswk]

lackattack has updarted the image as above with adjusted wording.
Thanks lackattack.

[iancanton]

sorry, cairns, i was looking at an old (probably cached) version that had the +1 for 3 flughafenstrasse bonus.

while its not normally good practice to let players have such a high chance of starting with +3 bonuses, it doesn't necessarily have such a detrimental effect here compared with other maps because it's so much more difficult to win.

is there a reasonable win ratio in 1v1 (let's say above 20%) for those whose opponents have a +3 bonus on turn 1? if so, then we can safely say that the map passes with flying colours!

ian.