The Citadel [Quenched]

[TaCktiX]

I also am not familiar with the names of the buildings at the Citadel, so I'm only addressing a small part of your naming concerns. Frequently, university buildings are built without a donor or honoree having been named. Once some money, I mean a worthy individual, comes along the school will have a big naming ceremony. This is likely the case for the buildings above. The School of English will be called just that until, say, Mark Twain's offspring drop some jack to have it named after him. To me, keeping with the official names of the academic buildings is the right way to go. I believe the nicknames come in for the food, sleep, and play related facilities. Just give us a little more detail on why you chose the nicknames for some and official names for others.

I know this sounds crazy, but virtually every building on campus was named AS it was built. For instance, Capers Hall is named in honor of the Capers brothers, one a Civil War soldier, the other a president of the college proper. Thing was, the building was built in 1953 and the Capers brothers lived in the mid-1800's. Another example is Grimsley Hall: built in 1991, named in honor of president Major General Grimsley, president from 1980-1989. Even the major donor buildings like Daniel Library were built in 1960 and named in honor of two graduates: one of the class of 1918, the other of the class of 1929.

As for the School of English and such, that is when I split a building into several territories to make gameplay better. The School of English is in that section of Capers Hall, but it's still Capers Hall. The School of Business and the President are firmly part of Bond Hall. The Museum is an annex of Daniel Library. Names are still related to what's there, it's just not the official building name in some cases.

To address a separate issue: You could move the title and parade deck territory down so that the title would be the focal point of the map. Possibly not down to the middle, but just enough to free up some room to run the sidewalks into the parade deck.

I'll do that, thanks.

[laci_mae]

I was curious how military school buildings were named. I figured, for the most part, they weren't as donor dependent as public universities. I'm fine with how things are named. I just thought I had a different perspective on why some things develop nicknames and others don't. Fact is, I'm not familiar with the names or relational proximities of the territories in most of the maps. It's not hard to get the hang of after a solid game or two.

Example: I've only played the China map once. It has Shanxi and Shaanxi as bordering territories. I did not realize this and deployed on the wrong one. It hurt me for that turn, but I ended up winning the game.
Moral of the story: You live and learn. Use the names by which the areas or buildings are called by people familiar with the Citadel. Everyone will learn their locations quickly enough. Any players who are familiar with the geographical areas within China would never dream of making the mistake that I did.

Best,
Laci

[CatfishJohnson]

lol i did basically the same thing laci lol

[gimil]

good luck!

[bryguy]

congratz on the main foundry!

yes first to say it

next stop, Final Forge, then Quench, then.... THE WORLD!!!!

[TaCktiX]

Well, now that this is in Foundry we'll see if it lives a week before being trampled out of existence. I'll release a bit update Version 9 to address the bonus and crosswalk issues today, hopefully that'll stimulate some discussion.

[bryguy]

Well, now that this is in Foundry we'll see if it lives a week before being trampled out of existence. I'll release a bit update Version 9 to address the bonus and crosswalk issues today, hopefully that'll stimulate some discussion.

well EB is/was still alive after a week, but i better hurry up and get an update before it gets trampled....

[TaCktiX]

Version 9

Updates:
- Moved the map title and Parade Deck more toward the center of the Parade Deck
- Revamped sidewalk routes so they looked more realistic and less retarded, particularly slanted ones
- Fixed the Bonus box to be readable, like the rest of the map
- Moved Quad B's army placement, for future 888 checks.

[oaktown]

Hey TicTac, err, taCktix. Welcome to the Main.

My first impression is that the whole thing looks a bit flat graphically. I'm not suggesting you get all 3-D on us, but since you have opted for some 3-D effects (building shadows, a sloped roof or two) you have to be consistent with the look - and very careful with it. For instance, the roof lighting is different on the two roofs that are sloped, and there's no sense of a vanishing point. If you're going to try to make it look three dimensional, you've got a big job ahead of you that I know would kick my ass!

The Tower is going to be especially troublesome. Right now it looks like a horizontal projection into the quad, as if it is a territory bordering the parade deck. i suspect that's not what you are after.

Quick question: where Echo and Hotel border Mike and Kilo, I assume all four territories can attack each other, yes? if so I think it wouldn't hurt to make that walkway a bit bigger to emphasize the fact that the walkway hits both rooms on each side.

there may need to be a note in the legend giving a general explanation of the outdoor attack routes, but let's see where you take it first.

A general issue I have with the borders between territories is that the lines that represent attackable borders are thicker than the other lines around the building. it makes the border look unpassable. For instance, I know that Golf can attack Quad A, and Quad A can attack band, but can Band attack Golf? And if not, how does anybody ever attack President?

[TaCktiX]

Hey TicTac, err, taCktix. Welcome to the Main.

My first impression is that the whole thing looks a bit flat graphically. I'm not suggesting you get all 3-D on us, but since you have opted for some 3-D effects (building shadows, a sloped roof or two) you have to be consistent with the look - and very careful with it. For instance, the roof lighting is different on the two roofs that are sloped, and there's no sense of a vanishing point. If you're going to try to make it look three dimensional, you've got a big job ahead of you that I know would kick my ass!

The assumed shadow is from a sun shining approximately from the top right of the map, just uniformly in proportion to height of building (most buildings on campus are 3 or 4 stories tall, all the ones on the map aside from The Trailers are at least that height). For the majority of the map I assumed pure left-facing shadow, and now that the Quads are gone, the top-facing shadow has been eliminated. So amend that to a sun shining uniformly from the right. Any suggestions from there?

The Tower is going to be especially troublesome. Right now it looks like a horizontal projection into the quad, as if it is a territory bordering the parade deck. i suspect that's not what you are after.

It is adjacent to the parade deck. I meant to add a shadow to it (left-facing as well) this past version, but it slipped my mind. It extends out of 2nd onto the Deck to show that relationship, and since you uninformed (akin to a first-time player of the map) assumed that that was the relationship, life is good. If it WASN'T a border, 2nd would be very imbalanced compared to the other battalions, which have hefty defense to hold individually (4 territories of 5, except on Support which is 3 of 4).

Quick question: where Echo and Hotel border Mike and Kilo, I assume all four territories can attack each other, yes? if so I think it wouldn't hurt to make that walkway a bit bigger to emphasize the fact that the walkway hits both rooms on each side.

Yup, crazy interconnections. I'll make it bigger.

A general issue I have with the borders between territories is that the lines that represent attackable borders are thicker than the other lines around the building. it makes the border look unpassable. For instance, I know that Golf can attack Quad A, and Quad A can attack band, but can Band attack Golf? And if not, how does anybody ever attack President?

I can trim those up. When I was first drafting Version 8 I was going from not having enough space to show in-building borders to having gobs of it. I got a little paranoid about people being able to tell the difference.

Thanks for the input on this, Oaktown.

[mibi]

this is headed in the right direction.

[oaktown]

For the majority of the map I assumed pure left-facing shadow, and now that the Quads are gone, the top-facing shadow has been eliminated. So amend that to a sun shining uniformly from the right. Any suggestions from there?

check the roof of bottom right building... it has a different light source i think.

[TaCktiX]

Oh, those shadows. They were meant to show the building wasn't completely flat, and instead had a sloped roof. And virtually all other buildings on campus (exception being McAlister Field House, which is a cylinder roof surrounded by flat) have a completely flat roof. I'll flip The Trailers' shadows around to be consistent.

[laci_mae]

Hey Tack,

Congrats on the promotion. I agree with all of Oaktown's comments. (Shocker, I know!) I have a few additional issues that I thought you might address while you're resizing all the borders.

* Is there a bonus for holding the 3 gray territories? I don't assume there should be one, just thought it would add a unique gameplay feature.
* The legend is much more readable overall, but red still doesn't contrast well.
* I'm having a difficult time discriminating among the blue and green colors within the buildings and legend.
* I believe the territory by Golf is Band and the one by the President is Bond Hall. With this font, band and bond look extremely similar.

Best,
Laci

[CatfishJohnson]

hmm hes right

[Kaplowitz]

Congratz on the main foundry!

Right now, if you control the parade deck, you can access any continent and make it much harder for the other players to move around. I think that really, it should just work for moving around and getting to other continents easily. Maybe it would be cool to have a small neutral killer of maybe 10 on the Parade Deck?

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

Very nice TaCktix....i like this look. Sorry ti has been a while sincei poked my head in...and sorry if these questions have already been answered....
1. is it possible for gameplay to divie up the parade ground into quadrants
2. the trailers...the army number is not in a building like the rest of the map (except PG) so using the pathways, who can attack the trailers?

[TaCktiX]

Right now, if you control the parade deck, you can access any continent and make it much harder for the other players to move around. I think that really, it should just work for moving around and getting to other continents easily. Maybe it would be cool to have a small neutral killer of maybe 10 on the Parade Deck?

I might consider a killer neutral on the Deck should that ultra-accessibility become a gameplay issue, but it will not be 10. I want the Deck to be an integral part of play, and 10 neutrals to kill is the same as ignoring the territory until absolutely necessary. Maybe 3-5.

1. is it possible for gameplay to divie up the parade ground into quadrants

No. See Kaplowitz's suggestion for something that is much more appetizing to me than splitting the Deck in 4. The sheer awesomeness of the Parade Deck would be hampered if it were in four pieces, and then communicating what Deck territories attack which (more than likely an equal attack at the corner to all 4 would take up more map space.

2. the trailers...the army number is not in a building like the rest of the map (except PG) so using the pathways, who can attack the trailers?

In Version 10 (halfway complete), I'm making all of the path borders bigger, except the Parade Deck, as those are pretty obvious what they connect to. You can see in the present version that the paths head straight into the Trailers from two directions. What they connect to (Disrepair, November, Oscar) will be a bit more apparent, but considering that the paths are only used to show attack routes I'm sure people will figure it out.

* Is there a bonus for holding the 3 gray territories? I don't assume there should be one, just thought it would add a unique gameplay feature.

No bonus for those 3 territories. The Trailers has been a place of company exile historically ("hey, there isn't space for you in a normal place to live, so we're shoving you here!"), and the majority of the cadets on campus don't like athletes (they tend to have far worse standards of personal appearance, and skip out on most military functions). Having no bonus is thematically appropriate, and explaining a separated bonus like that would take up more map space that's not available.

* The legend is much more readable overall, but red still doesn't contrast well.

I've dropped the opacity of the box bounding the bonuses, and increased the red in the legend to as red as it gets (FF0000), it should be more apparent now.

* I'm having a difficult time discriminating among the blue and green colors within the buildings and legend.

I'm increasing the saturation of colors in the buildings this version. Previously it's been 50%, now it'll be 70% opacity on the covering layers. I know the colors are different enough and the contrast should be sufficient for the color blind (where's Ruben Cassar when you need him?!), especially between the battalions.

* I believe the territory by Golf is Band and the one by the President is Bond Hall. With this font, band and bond look extremely similar.

I'll see if I can't wangle something. I might put in a small company pride thing and stick Band in all caps (I'm from Band Company).

[TaCktiX]

Version 10

Updates:
- Narrowed the territory borders so they don't look impassable
- Exaggerated the paths between battalions to show the 4-way connection better
- Increased the color saturation on the continents (50% to 70%)
- Made the shadows on the map universally from a light source in the top right
- Removed any shadows on paths to make them stand out more
- Moved Quad A and Quad B text to make sure 888 issues don't show up later
- Added a shadow to the Tower
- Changed the bonus box opacity to make Avenue of Remembrance show up better
- Changed the Parade Deck to show a neutral 88, as it will now start that way (not with that many armies, but that color) and be killer (thanks Kaplowitz)

Small Version


Discussion Points:
- Are the paths obvious and apparent, all connections?
- What would you suggest I change the bonus area to so it's readable regardless? I'm at a loss for background.
- Do the colors contrast enough?
- Any other issues that I'm not addressing?

[ZeakCytho]

I don't like how the paths to the parade deck all end suddenly. Maybe you could have a rectangular path going inside the Parade Deck that connects them all? But that might convey that you can attack without going through the Parade Deck, which is no good...Maybe they should just all end at the edge of the parade deck. Even if you decide to have them continue past the avenues/streets into the parade deck, I'd get rid of the angled sections.

Why is it that some are much thicker than others? Is this to preserve the geographic reality? There's no gameplay difference between thick and thin paths, is there?

Am I right in thinking that The Trailers connects to Disrepair, Oscar, and Novem? If not, then they need to be clarified.

The "Avenue of Remembrance" in the legend is still very unreadable. You could try putting a faint outer glow on the text; that might make it more readable.

About the avenues: could you label them on the streets themselves as well as in the bonus box? I think having the names of the streets would add a nice but subtle flare to the map. The opacity on them should be low, of course, so it's not distracting.

I think it'd be good if you increased the font size on the title text ("The Citadel") a bit.

I think the colors are fine, but someone who has more trouble telling colors apart should really comment on that.

Keep up the good work

[TaCktiX]

I don't like how the paths to the parade deck all end suddenly. Maybe you could have a rectangular path going inside the Parade Deck that connects them all? But that might convey that you can attack without going through the Parade Deck, which is no good...Maybe they should just all end at the edge of the parade deck. Even if you decide to have them continue past the avenues/streets into the parade deck, I'd get rid of the angled sections.

It used to end right at the Deck (see Versions 1, 2), but people were thoroughly unclear as to how big the Deck was, so I extended the attack lines onto the Deck a bit. I think my map is the first to have a territory of that size period, so I want it to be first-timer-friendly as possible, considering its fairly standard gameplay.

Why is it that some are much thicker than others? Is this to preserve the geographic reality? There's no gameplay difference between thick and thin paths, is there?

Understandability reality. The Deck paths didn't need to be changed, as where they come from and where they go to is rather obvious, but the connections between battalions, with their 4-way attack, had to be clarified. I made the paths much larger at those points to make it clearer.

Am I right in thinking that The Trailers connects to Disrepair, Oscar, and Novem? If not, then they need to be clarified.

BINGO! That's exactly what it connects to, so no clarification necessary.

The "Avenue of Remembrance" in the legend is still very unreadable. You could try putting a faint outer glow on the text; that might make it more readable.

I'm taking suggestions for what background to use instead of the black box. I know it won't work universally, and I've already tried glow-without-box. Glow-with-box would look retarded and slapped-together, and nothing at all with that grass just doesn't work. Any suggestions I could roll onto there?

About the avenues: could you label them on the streets themselves as well as in the bonus box? I think having the names of the streets would add a nice but subtle flare to the map. The opacity on them should be low, of course, so it's not distracting.

They used to be there, in addition to all the other continent names, I removed them in Version 7. I'll put them back in for reality's sake, though the bonus colors on those three is the most dramatic of all the bonuses (red, yellow, blue), thus making putting that unnecessary from a bonus standpoint.

I think it'd be good if you increased the font size on the title text ("The Citadel") a bit.

Easy.

I think the colors are fine, but someone who has more trouble telling colors apart should really comment on that.

WHERE ARE YOU RUBEN CASSAR?!

Keep up the good work

I shall try to, but sometimes it's very hard to do.

[ZeakCytho]

I'm taking suggestions for what background to use instead of the black box. I know it won't work universally, and I've already tried glow-without-box. Glow-with-box would look retarded and slapped-together, and nothing at all with that grass just doesn't work. Any suggestions I could roll onto there?

You could try increasing the opacity in the box and drawing it closer to black. I don't think a glow on the text with the box would look that bad, and even if it does look retarded and slapped-together, that's much better than being unreadable

Someone else probably has a better suggestion, though.

[bryguy]

I like where this is heading, now time for me to comment again

1) If someone is color blind, they might have trouble telling apart the 2nd battalion, lee avenue, and 4th battalion
2) I can hardly read said places bonuses
3) The Avenue of Remembrance bonus hurts my eyes
4) As has been noted, people may get confused over if they can attack the trailers from disrepair and oscar/novem
5) Love the look of Summerall Chapel, but could you bring up the opacity on the lines on it?
6) The Canteen/Mark Clark Hall border is pixely
7) For the building The Trailers, The lines on the roof are slightly pixely in some places, could u make them less pixely?

5-7 can be considered nitpicking


Looks good other than that, ill check back sometime later

[gimil]

Some thoughts:

1. 1st battalion, support battalion and maybe even the 2nd battalion are good candidates to get mixed up in game because of how similar their colors appear. Try changing one of them to purple for a start and another one pink to have variation.

2. Avenue of remeberance is horribly hard to read in hte legends. Im not sure how to combat this but im sure youll find a way

3. Unlit the rest I like the idea of the parade deck as a single terr. Its an alternative game style I feel. However I dont like hte tower Idea you have its somethings thats jsut going to piss people off. I suggest removing its bombardment capabilities and leaving it as a normal terr.

4. You have alot of paths that are unplayable that overlap paths that connect buildings. These may very well cause confusion. I suggested darkening the non playable paths so that the connection ones stick out.

Thats my most major concerns for now. Like mibi said this map is heading in the right direction.

[laci_mae]

Hi Tack,

I agree that the tower bombardment seems a little out of place.

I think you could remove it and work to improve the legend as follows:
* Remove info about tower
* Shorten field house a bit to create more room in the bottom left corner.
* Extend the parking lot to the right into the area where the legend is now.
* Shift the legend left onto the parking lot (i.e. where tower stuff is now)

Just a thought,
Laci